Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

In the FWIW column I've decided to move on from Euphony. For some time now its been a mixed blessing, great transient cues, nice mid range timbre.

But with the DAC's I have at hand the treble region with massed instruments becomes inchoate, the sort of defect that makes you avoid Tchaikowsky pieces,.

HQPe v4 with DSD up-sampling has proven much more enjoyable and Audirvana Studio as player feeding HQPe has proven more stable/reliable with

a much lower annual subscription cost.

 

 

When you said inchoate is that what you meant or incoherent? I've found that with Euphony, sometimes the sound of instruments can get smeared. A euphonic blend so to speak instead of defined clarity. 

[davide256]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

When you said inchoate is that what you meant or incoherent? I've found that with Euphony, sometimes the sound of instruments can get smeared. A euphonic blend so to speak instead of defined clarity. 

inchoate = partially formed. Massed high strings sound like a bright blob, no inner resolution  that allows you to distinguish it is multiple instruments. And a touch of digititus

that makes playing the piece unpleasant. Smear is a reasonable description, where you can make out the intended structure  but the resolution

is like a cheap copy of a Waterford crystal, chromatically wrong, rounded edges.

 

I do wonder if some of this is from sub $1k DAC  limitations for PCM treble D-A artifact filters. And this is using NOS mode for

Stylus, haven't liked the built in Stylus up-sampling options

 

[Johnseye]

8 hours ago, davide256 said:

inchoate = partially formed. Massed high strings sound like a bright blob, no inner resolution  that allows you to distinguish it is multiple instruments. And a touch of digititus

that makes playing the piece unpleasant. Smear is a reasonable description, where you can make out the intended structure  but the resolution

is like a cheap copy of a Waterford crystal, chromatically wrong, rounded edges.

 

I do wonder if some of this is from sub $1k DAC  limitations for PCM treble D-A artifact filters. And this is using NOS mode for

Stylus, haven't liked the built in Stylus up-sampling options

 

 

It's not the DAC. My Holo May in NOS with HQPlayer exhibits the same characteristics. Euphony didn't always sound this way. 

[al2813]

Different question, I have been in discussion with a friend who is like me a madman audiophile 🙂. Our discussion was around ripping CDs. I've heard many times that rips do not sound the same as the original CDs and that the difference is enhanced with more resolving systems (which I believe I have). My friend tells me he has worked for a long time on optimizing the HW aspect of ripping so that he could retire his dedicated CD transport and use only rips by: 

- Optimizing the USB connection between the CD drive and the target HD (use a high quality cable, use IFI idefender on the link)

- low power SSD powered by LPS 

 

In this specific thread, I am raising the SW part. Euphony 4.0 has a new CD ripping and playback feature. Has anyone investigated this feature or using it regularly? Of course comments on the HW part are welcome. 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

12 hours ago, al2813 said:

Different question, I have been in discussion with a friend who is like me a madman audiophile 🙂. Our discussion was around ripping CDs. I've heard many times that rips do not sound the same as the original CDs and that the difference is enhanced with more resolving systems (which I believe I have). My friend tells me he has worked for a long time on optimizing the HW aspect of ripping so that he could retire his dedicated CD transport and use only rips by: 

- Optimizing the USB connection between the CD drive and the target HD (use a high quality cable, use IFI idefender on the link)

- low power SSD powered by LPS 

 

In this specific thread, I am raising the SW part. Euphony 4.0 has a new CD ripping and playback feature. Has anyone investigated this feature or using it regularly? Of course comments on the HW part are welcome. 

 

 

 

Do you use DbPowerAmp to rip CDs?

[al2813]

5 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Do you use DbPowerAmp to rip CDs?

 

No - So far I did not attempt ripping my CDs. I am now investigating a project to do so and use my Euphony server/end point as the only digital source. 

[Smaragdhk]

I went down that route due to space constraints (the silver discs take up quite some space with my huge collection). I started ripping a couple year ago both CDs and SACDs. Using a MacOS software called XLD for CDs into uncompressed FLAC (highest quality setting) and an Oppo Blu-ray player for ripping SACD into DSD files.

All the files are stored on a QNAP NAS powered by a Keces LPS. My 10i7 NUC based server running Euphony 4 is also powered by a Keces LPS. The internal drive is a Femto SSD equally powered by a smaller Keces LPS. Streaming my ripped files using a Marantz SA KI Ruby SACD as a DAC sounds indeed better than when playing the silver discs directly. 

[al2813]

33 minutes ago, Smaragdhk said:

I went down that route due to space constraints (the silver discs take up quite some space with my huge collection). I started ripping a couple year ago both CDs and SACDs. Using a MacOS software called XLD for CDs into uncompressed FLAC (highest quality setting) and an Oppo Blu-ray player for ripping SACD into DSD files.

All the files are stored on a QNAP NAS powered by a Keces LPS. My 10i7 NUC based server running Euphony 4 is also powered by a Keces LPS. The internal drive is a Femto SSD equally powered by a smaller Keces LPS. Streaming my ripped files using a Marantz SA KI Ruby SACD as a DAC sounds indeed better than when playing the silver discs directly. 

 

Do you use the NUC in its case or did you move it to different case (I cannot see how you're able to power the internal SSD separately using the existing case)? 

[Smaragdhk]

The NUC is in a HDPlex case with passive cooling. The Femto M.2 drive has a separate 5V DC input connector.

 

 

[Yiakubou]

2 hours ago, Smaragdhk said:

I went down that route due to space constraints (the silver discs take up quite some space with my huge collection). I started ripping a couple year ago both CDs and SACDs. Using a MacOS software called XLD for CDs into uncompressed FLAC (highest quality setting) and an Oppo Blu-ray player for ripping SACD into DSD files.

All the files are stored on a QNAP NAS powered by a Keces LPS. My 10i7 NUC based server running Euphony 4 is also powered by a Keces LPS. The internal drive is a Femto SSD equally powered by a smaller Keces LPS. Streaming my ripped files using a Marantz SA KI Ruby SACD as a DAC sounds indeed better than when playing the silver discs directly. 

 

If you rip the CD / SACD / DVD audio, etc. properly, then purely from data source point of view there cannot be any audible difference. If you rip properly, you will get a bit-perfect copy and exactly the same data as on the disc. If you're then hearing a difference between discs and ripped files, then the difference is either your own bias or in the way how the data from disc or ripped file is processed by your setup down the line.

[Smaragdhk]

Absolutely correct. It’s the processing of the bit perfect ripped files that’s making it sound better to my ears in my setup 🙂

[brucew]

Also AFAIK, playing a CD does the read error correction real-time whilst playing from a file has had the error correction already done during the rip, if well configured. I use DBpoweramp to rip CD's and not all CD/DVD drives are equal in their ability to read through media errors. Of course opening and send a file and getting it to the DAC without also sending analogue noise down the commons is the bigger deal many of us are pursuing.

[AudioDoctor]

11 hours ago, al2813 said:

 

No - So far I did not attempt ripping my CDs. I am now investigating a project to do so and use my Euphony server/end point as the only digital source. 

 

I ask because DbPoweramp will rip your CD and verify that it matches with the accurate rip database. It also allows you to manage where you get your metadata from, change it if you want, edit the cover art, etc... and I don't know if Euphony allows any of that. Having been down this road and learned my lessons the hard way. Rip your CDs right the first time.

 

I rip with one of these: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MR3UBDRW16/

no fancy audiophile ripper, no USB cleaners, none of that. DbPoweramp ensures I get an accurate rip.

[davide256]

29 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I ask because DbPoweramp will rip your CD and verify that it matches with the accurate rip database. It also allows you to manage where you get your metadata from, change it if you want, edit the cover art, etc... and I don't know if Euphony allows any of that. Having been down this road and learned my lessons the hard way. Rip your CDs right the first time.

 

I rip with one of these: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MR3UBDRW16/

no fancy audiophile ripper, no USB cleaners, none of that. DbPoweramp ensures I get an accurate rip.

and meta tag search is also important, dbpoweramp accesses several freeware databases and I often merge results to get whats most useful to me

[AudioDoctor]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

and meta tag search is also important, dbpoweramp accesses several freeware databases and I often merge results to get whats most useful to me

 

I usually find my album on DIscogs and manually use that metadata or modify it somehow for my needs, but yes, the search of more than one source and the merge function is a very nice feature as well.

 

edit: Another nice feature is I can rip the CD directly to my network share from my Mac.

[aangen]

Investigate “MusicBrainz.org”, a site similar to Discogs minus the selling. I have been ripping CDs since 1996, after the early ExactAudioCopy years I switched to dBPoweramp. The MusicBrainz Picard Tagger reads your files and tries to determine which of many versions it is aware of that your rips match. The learning curve to use this app is steep for some. It’s very handy if accurate meta data is important to you.

 

This about ripped files vs. the silver disc: For many, many, many years I believed there was no audible difference between the two. Exactly the same, ones and zeroes. Then I bought a Gryphon Ethos. When I use Roon I listen to my rips and streams, Qobuz and whatever. Now, if I am listening to a streamed anything, at any bitrate, if I stop the stream and play the CD in the Ethos, the Ethos sounds way more analog and wonderful. It’s not suffering listening to streams, no. It just sounds so much better when the ones and zeroes are processed on that machine. I would compare it to the difference between the Ethos and vinyl. (vinyl wins) It’s weird how much different 16.44.1 sounds on that machine. An MBL 1621A transport is much the same. Standout playback. It makes me very happy I never sold or gave away a single CD. I haven’t heard it but I am guessing the DCS gear is at or above the level of those two.

 

anyway.

[flkin]

33 minutes ago, aangen said:

..

 

This about ripped files vs. the silver disc..

 

..  It just sounds so much better when the ones and zeroes are processed on that machine..

 

 

Yes, agreed that the sound difference is between different playback machines or setups. It's not between accurately ripped data and data in CDs.

[aangen]

But the same DAC presents both the streamed data and the data streamed from the transport. Many would think it should sound the same. Many would argue it does. It surprises me pleasantly that it doesn’t sound identical.

[flkin]

14 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

...

I rip with one of these: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/MR3UBDRW16/

no fancy audiophile ripper, no USB cleaners, none of that. DbPoweramp ensures I get an accurate rip.

 

Can this device see the high res DSD layer of SACD discs and if so, does it work with dbPoweramp to rip that info?

 

If so, this will be a really useful product instead of using a Sony playstation.

 

Also do you know whether it sees the audio files for Blu-Ray video recordings, say of a classical performance?  I am hoping to rip a newly released Blu-Ray live recording of Horowitz in Moscow 1986. Any zone issues?

[Yiakubou]

2 minutes ago, aangen said:

But the same DAC presents both the streamed data and the data streamed from the transport. Many would think it should sound the same. Many would argue it does. It surprises me pleasantly that it doesn’t sound identical.

 

It does not have to be about the DAC only. I assume for streaming you use Grimm streamer with Roon? If yes, Roon can make a difference as well - in my experience it degrades sound quality vs. something like Euphony. Grimm can do some internal processing, Gryphon Ethos may be doing something differently when playing CD's vs. Grimm before sending the audio data to the DAC module. There are differences in power stages, input/output implementations, clocks, etc...

[flkin]

1 minute ago, aangen said:

But the same DAC presents both the streamed data and the data streamed from the transport. Many would think it should sound the same. Many would argue it does. It surprises me pleasantly that it doesn’t sound identical.

 

Hi Al, how are things going? It's the entire field of digital playback we're talking about. If DACs were processing bit perfect input and that is all that matters, then the most basic computer, software, power and cables would sound just fine since bit perfect delivery is trival and the entire high end digital playback industry is no longer needed. 😆

 

There are many technologists that claim this is the case and are happy using the most basic setup but I'm sure most of us here disagree. Somehow there's an art to delivering bit perfect info to the DAC and the way it's done greatly influences the sound. That Ethos must be something special to sound better than your MU1. Are you still using that streamer? Did you manage to get Euphony into the Grimm for the comparison?

 

Kin

[Smaragdhk]

 

2 hours ago, flkin said:

 

Can this device see the high res DSD layer of SACD discs and if so, does it work with dbPoweramp to rip that info?

 

If so, this will be a really useful product instead of using a Sony playstation.

 

 

As far as I understood, there's only a handful of Blu-ray players around that can be used for ripping SACD's, e.g. Oppo and Pioneer, in addition to the Playstation. Also, I use Sonore's software ISO to DSD... there are a few websites explaining how to rip SACDs. Don't think DBPowerAmp has that functionality...

[flkin]

The device is capable of reading Blu-Ray and the back has a USB output instead of HDMI so …. maybe? 🤞

 

[AudioDoctor]

8 hours ago, flkin said:

an this device see the high res DSD layer of SACD discs

 

No.

 

8 hours ago, flkin said:

Also do you know whether it sees the audio files for Blu-Ray video recordings,

 

I have no idea, never tried to rip a blue ray. Only watch them.

[al2813]

Lots of interesting answers. I think several topics are mixed here: 

1. there's no doubt the same digital music file ("0s and 1s") will sound different when played based on the streamer or the DAC. This is what this forum is all about in fact and its popularity is the proof. 

2. You cannot put CDs and streaming services in the same bucket for many reasons but the main one is that the masterings used by the streaming services are not necessarily the same used in a given CD version of the same album. This phenomenon is especially true for popular artists' material recorded using analogue equipment. Furthermore, there are well documented cases and extreme opinions about the differences in sound quality between different CD issues of the same album. 

3. The point my friend raised to me was the difference in sound quality that can be observed when ripping the same CD. As discussed earlier SW has a big part in this (bit perfect etc.), but HW seems to matter as well (where in theory it shouldn't since the 1s and 0s are identical). Of course hearing the difference is subject to many factors some more or less objective (the level of your setup) and some totally subjective ("analogue sound"). The type of music, the quality of the mastering and the recording will also play in this scenario