Measurements & Sound Quality

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Just reading through this and too many individual responses to quote but ...

 

I agree that measurements are essential but which ones? Folks tend to measure what us easy which means what their scope is already programmed. The “typical” THD measurements don’t tell the picture nor are the only measurements available. 

 

Probably don’t need to delve into sensory neurophysiology and trying to math model the brain.  We know about electric physics really really well. 

 

So ... as has been suggested : I’ve been listening to a lot of live music recently and there are two types:

1) acoustic unamplified: the acoustics of the room/hall are important as well as accurate reproduction. 

2) amplified blues/rock etc... what makes this sound live? I get the sense the amplification equipment has a fair amount of distortion: large Class D etc arrays of speakers as well as on stage tube guitar amps. 

 

So really the question should be: what in our living room is lacking that a live concert has? Send that signal to the brain  

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To add on: there is another category:

 

3) purely electronic music never intended to be played live ... problematic because the reproduction system is being measured in isolation and the requirements thus could be anything ...

 

What makes an “annoying” sound less annoying? Was it intended to be annoying? The only absolute here is fidelity to the recording, and when strict adherence to measurements are thrown out then the “best SQ” could be anything ??‍♂️

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12 hours ago, PeterSt said:

The playing together. Must be about PRaT or something.

Anyway, I more or less frequently reported that "we" now are waiting for the applause at the end. It doesn't come ? then it's a studio recording after all.

 

IOW: I think this sensation can be there all right. But don't ask me what it takes to get it there, technically. Better balance ? Anyway it must be about better quality of some sort; the fact that the quality seems to be improving is, ... a fact.

I think that until we are able to describe mathematically the difference between a performance and the recording of a performance, that we will remain unable to develop measurements that meaningfully distinguish between reproduction systems that are “lifelike” or not. 

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10 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 How can they ever be truly " lifelike" while using ONLY 2 front stereo speakers , which the vast majority of Audio systems do ?

 

My statement makes no such assumptions, nor is dependent on a particular number of speakers, particular file format, particular power supply, particular type of cable nor any other detail. I said that until we understand what is not adequately reproduced, then we cannot measure the difference between any actual system and an ideal reproduction system — the failing is not in the ability to measure but knowing what to measure.

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6 hours ago, GregWormald said:

 

Maybe "better than "lifelike"" if the venue detracts from the music rather than adds to it.

 

“Better than lifelike” is a purely subjective experience. There is no need to measure, just listen to what you like!

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10 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I have a voltmeter - what should I measure?

Volts  

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3 hours ago, mansr said:

No, that's what he can measure.

If we also get him an ohmmeter then he can measure everything  

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14 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

not temperature or time

Good point, particularly if you are measuring hot vs cool jazz as well as syncopation 

 

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2 hours ago, crenca said:

He is playing to the crowd like any good politician or salesman.  Pass is a good salesman -  very very $successful$ in the all too subjectivised Audiophile market. 

 

Nelson Pass is honest. Minimal BS. It is terrific that he can be open about his designs, provide his schematics for hobbyists and make money at the same time. We need more of this. He deserves every penny he makes and more. If you can solder and follow directions, you too can build one of his amps. If you can't then you can pay $$$$. Or get an old refurbished Adcom. Seems very fair to me.

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2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Though to be absolutely fair, he doesn't release the current commercial designs.  But a not very old Pass amp for a fairly low cost is an excellent deal.

 

Who else releases schematics of older designs, let alone current? 

 

$400/channel might almost get you the case, then there’s heatsinks, transformers, yeah maybe the electronics are about $400 in volume  

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31 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/aleph-x.html#Version

Great article!

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19 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Even so, getting yourself a pair of Pass-designed 100wpc monoblocks for $1400 then (I wonder what it would cost now?) would be quite something.

 

Remember to pay yourself XX $/hr and consider the number of hours. So ... if you have fun spending time doing it, then great, but  the price ...

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9 hours ago, Jud said:

 

If I thought like that, I'd have no hobbies. If it's fun, that's not added advantage rather than a cost.  Not that a couple of NC400 kits aren't tempting.

 

Right!

 

Just pointing out that cost isn’t just parts cost, and we shouldn’t expect our landscapers nor wedding photographers nor chefs to work for free  

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3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Wondering if there are any measurements/specs of the different implementations that correspond to different subjectively reported sounds?

 

That’s the crux of the question here. What electrically correlates with “sterile” or “clinical” or “lifelike” “live” etc?

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30 minutes ago, fas42 said:

And best wishes to you!

 

Ummm, everything that makes or breaks an audio rig's sound is electrical - just because one can't display a particular behaviour in a beautiful, sterile, lab environment way doesn't mean it's not there... .

 

Sometimes, the world is a bit chaotic - one learns to live with that.

Our ability to measure small voltages is terrific. Pretty much any electrical description is measurable with proper equipment and technique. By electrical description, I mean a mathematical description framed in units of electromagnetic physics.

 

Randomly chaotic electrical activity is noise.

@Ralf11 equated this to prose: http://wisdomofchopra.com/

 

Merry Christmas to you too Deepak!

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17 hours ago, esldude said:

Looking over the history of devices described that way, you usually are talking very low distortion, very flat in extended frequency response gear that gets called sterile.  You see this over and over.  

 

Thats the standard answer. Is it true? Evidence? If that’s correct then why doesn’t most audio reproduction sound more “live”? I listen to a lot of live acoustic and amplified music and I don’t describe it as sterile, so if you are correct, what gives? I’m looking for authentic, uncolored, reproduction and I know it when I hear it  

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35 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

didn't JBL do some studies of flat vs. slightly rolled freq. response ("warm")?  I have not seen the studies but have seen them referred to...

 

Yeah I mean that if this were as simple as frequency response etc, then would be a solved problem ...

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20 minutes ago, esldude said:

I do see every time you get flat and clean with your average recordings with lots of processing people call it sterile.  

 

I agree about the "lots of processing" issue ... to start, any compression seems to be a deal breaker... if I had the answer for sure I'd say. For me, I like to keep the circuits as simple as possible, and stereo speakers are not typical in good live performances... if you get up close to the stage where the sound is the best, there are typically individual amps for each instrument. Where the large stereo arrays sound the worst is where they seem to get overwhelmed. For classic rock, look to Grateful Dead with the "Wall of Sound" and individually amped instruments... at home ...?

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I wonder how many audiophiles need 2 semi-trucks to move their stereo?

Right, but you’d think there could be a description of live sound beyond “flat frequency response”

 

Not sure its the weight of the speakers either?