Cable Risers - Snake Oil or they do improve the SQ?

[timada]

I am not really paying attention to it. I had a friend who was doing the same till one night he's room was about to burn because of his computer power cord. The cable was sparking and all the other cords are all inflammable material.

 

[ciamara]

I think you all might enjoy this from another forum. I personally do not believe that it is worth spending money on esoteric cable or cable risers, and I have a very high resolution full-range system. I have done the tests with Cardas, DH Labs Silver Sonic and then with Mogami 10 AWG soundrunner (bulk) cable. I went with Mogami. It was by far the cheapest, and there was no evidence of better sound with the other more expensive ones. As I always say ... Do the test yourself. Do a true double-blind A/B test and see if you can identify the differences ...

 

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ARTICLE

http://lavryengineering.com/forum_images/SE.pdf

 

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“I noticed in your article you wrote skin effect does not alters the timing relationship between harmonics, but it alters the ratio between harmonics, are we talking about “cables coloring the signal”?”

 

When we talk about engineering, it is very important to QUANTIFY matters. Quantifying often tells us the difference between what is practical and what is not. For example, stir a tablespoon of salt in a cup of water, and you will be able to taste salt. But stir a single grain of salt in an Olympic size fresh water swimming pool, and the water will be salt free, for all practical purposes.

Skin effect impact on relative low frequencies, such as audio is negligible, even for hundreds of feet of cable run. It is analogous to a grain of salt in a huge pool.

The effect is there, the question is how much of it do you get at audio frequencies. The answer is – the effect is so very small that it can be completely ignored. I do not believe a human can hear a .01dB loss at 20KHz. Skin effect causes much less than .01dB at 20KHz…

 

Your second question is:

 

“I have worked with some audio cables offered by a well known company, where a nice arrow shows the correct signal flow direction, what are we talking about here?”

 

Whatever the intent and the motive, the end result is consumer deception. The audio cables are made of material that does not have directionality to it. But to “add insult to injury”, the signal itself is by directional. The electrons in the cable flow back and forth from the source to the destination and back. That arrow is a big lie, nothing less.

The audio industry has a large number of such crocks and deceptions, and the common method to sell such lies is to find someone(s) willing to state that they heard a difference. Such statements are then used for advertising.

The proper way to screen subjective or false claims is to conduct a double blind ABX test (and that means keeping away people that may have any commercial interests from the test site).

Other sales “methods” involve technical claims that go against science and technology. The marketing of such false products take advantage of the fact that a large majority of people lack scientific and engineering fundamentals; therefore can not separate technical facts from complete fabrications, such as in the case of printing an arrow on a speaker cable.

 

Regards

Dan Lavry

 

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[Purite Audio]

Snake Oil.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Does make it easier to Hoover round cables if they are on risers though. :-)

 

[ajmcl05]

.... depends on the vacuum cleaner, whether it is bag/vortex.

 

We prefer the 'feel' of a 'Henry', but over on "vacuumophile" they claim the mkII Dyson is better....

 

[JayPee]

Dan,

 

Most unbalanced interconnect cables are single-ended, that is, the cable's shield is grounded on only one end, mainly to avoid ground loops. The direction of these cables are intended to ensure that the grounded end of the cable is connected to the next component downstream toward system ground, usually the preamp or power amp. This configuration provides a noise drain to a common ground point, again to minimize ground loops. Some cable makers bother to explain this, some don't, some make other claims for directional preference. Most say, hey, if it sounds better the other way, go for it (excepting of course where damage could take place, such as with active-bias cables).

 

In other words, cable directionality (or cryogenic treatment, skin effect, whatever, pick your poison) is not necessarily a deception, a complete fabrication or all about greedy manufacturers preying on pitiable, ignorant, impressionable non-engineering-degreed consumers, meaning the rest of us. (We really can fend for ourselves, thank you very much.) In forty-odd years I've yet to run across a manufacturer or dealer that would refuse a return for *any* reason short of damage.

 

Now my turn to rant: I have never understood how "objectivist" scientists/engineers will reject something out of hand just because it doesn't seem to fit their paradigm or worse still, when they are simply ignorant of what they speak. This sort of behavior is "subjectivist" in the worst sense. If you can't at least support an objectivist opinion objectively then please don't bother.

 

Jim

 

SOTA/SME/van den Hul, Sutherland, Esoteric, Moscode, Gallo Acoustics, Audience, Nordost, Magnan, Clearview, Mapleshade, Shakti, Granite Audio, yadda-yadda

 

[kyarbough]

I use the Cable Arch cable lifts from www.rhythmicraft.com... Love them!

 

[徐中銳]

Well, I've kinda kept it in mind, recalling Marantz Japan's Mr Sound-Quality-Control Ryuichi Sawada is a keen practitioner :

 

 

 

 

A translated English interview by Nobuyuki Fu

[Speedskater]

This horse (I mean thread) has been dead for 6 years.

[徐中銳]

Incidentally, although Jim Morrison has been dead for 45 years, I today too was flogging his music—because if it's relevant...

 

This horse (I mean thread) has been dead for 6 years.

 

[audiophile65]

Hey Liz - I have no direct experience with these, but I do know some people who swear by them. In fact Audio Research has two different kinds in their main listening room.

 

Years ago, I was at an Ayre Acoustics/Martin-Logan demo in Cincinnati, and they used some Ayre myrtle blocks to raise speaker cables from off the floor. The reps, at least, seemed impressed. I wish I could remember the Ayre rep (by name) who was there...

[mav52]

just splurge and go with the toilet paper cable riser

 

[gmgraves]

I suggest you go buy some Popsicle's, hand them out to your family, friends... then collect the sticks... make pyramids with some cable ties or tape... instant cable risers!

 

You get to test the theory and everybody else got to enjoy your generous nature.

 

We call this good karma!

 

Enjoy!

 

Or, perhaps even better, go buy a bunch of cheap ceramic coffee cups from the "dollar store" (or borrow some from your wife's china service) and invert them on the floor and lay the cable on top of the inverted cups. I don't think it will do anything but it's certainly cheaper than buying a set of eight ceramic speaker wire standoffs from Audio Advisor, and as someone has pointed out, it certainly won't make your system sound any worse. And don't forget the power of placebos. People have been cured of serious diseases because the power of their minds have made them think they were getting real medicine and that attitude has kick-started their immune systems into high gear. If a placebo can do that for one's health, it should also be able to do it for one's ears! Enjoy!

[Speedskater]

Incidentally' date=' although [b']Jim Morrison[/b] has been dead for 45 years, I today too was flogging his music—because if it's relevant........................

I remember seeing Jim Morrison in person, but that's all ancient history.

But another Morrison, Ralph Morrison in his book "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities" suggests running the cables along the floor & wall edge. Just the opposite of cable risers.

[徐中銳]

Personally, I changed my equipment setup a fortnight ago, rotating to products I had in storage. When connecting interconnects, I simply made sure they, while hanging, didn't cross-each-other. And length of my speaker cables too are too short to reach-the-floor

Rising cables... Am just mooting another perennial issue for audiophiles to consider, comment...

Another view of Sawada's own practice :

Will now be busy for rest of today ; return when next can

[kennyb123]

I heard no improvement from placing the original Shunyata Dark Field risers under my cables. At one point I removed them and thought I heard a slight change for the worse, so I threw them back in. Not a tweak I found to be worth the price based on sound quality, but I like the way they look and the way they keep my cables in place, so from that perspective I consider them worth the discounted price I paid.

 

What did make a very noticeable improvement was placing Stillpoints cones under the metal network boxes on my MIT speaker cables. That was a surprise.

[gmgraves]

I think you all might enjoy this from another forum. I personally do not believe that it is worth spending money on esoteric cable or cable risers, and I have a very high resolution full-range system. I have done the tests with Cardas, DH Labs Silver Sonic and then with Mogami 10 AWG soundrunner (bulk) cable. I went with Mogami. It was by far the cheapest, and there was no evidence of better sound with the other more expensive ones. As I always say ... Do the test yourself. Do a true double-blind A/B test and see if you can identify the differences ...

 

* * * * * * *

ARTICLE

Lavry Engineering

 

* * * * * * *

“I noticed in your article you wrote skin effect does not alters the timing relationship between harmonics, but it alters the ratio between harmonics, are we talking about “cables coloring the signal”?”

 

When we talk about engineering, it is very important to QUANTIFY matters. Quantifying often tells us the difference between what is practical and what is not. For example, stir a tablespoon of salt in a cup of water, and you will be able to taste salt. But stir a single grain of salt in an Olympic size fresh water swimming pool, and the water will be salt free, for all practical purposes.

Skin effect impact on relative low frequencies, such as audio is negligible, even for hundreds of feet of cable run. It is analogous to a grain of salt in a huge pool.

The effect is there, the question is how much of it do you get at audio frequencies. The answer is – the effect is so very small that it can be completely ignored. I do not believe a human can hear a .01dB loss at 20KHz. Skin effect causes much less than .01dB at 20KHz…

 

Your second question is:

 

“I have worked with some audio cables offered by a well known company, where a nice arrow shows the correct signal flow direction, what are we talking about here?”

 

Whatever the intent and the motive, the end result is consumer deception. The audio cables are made of material that does not have directionality to it. But to “add insult to injury”, the signal itself is by directional. The electrons in the cable flow back and forth from the source to the destination and back. That arrow is a big lie, nothing less.

The audio industry has a large number of such crocks and deceptions, and the common method to sell such lies is to find someone(s) willing to state that they heard a difference. Such statements are then used for advertising.

The proper way to screen subjective or false claims is to conduct a double blind ABX test (and that means keeping away people that may have any commercial interests from the test site).

Other sales “methods” involve technical claims that go against science and technology. The marketing of such false products take advantage of the fact that a large majority of people lack scientific and engineering fundamentals; therefore can not separate technical facts from complete fabrications, such as in the case of printing an arrow on a speaker cable.

 

Regards

Dan Lavry

 

* * * * * * *

 

Vis-a-vis your comment on directionality. There is a reason for it. Now whether or not that reason means anything, is another story. Some "audiophile-grade" cables are what can be described as "semi balanced". What this means is that there are two conductors inside the cable's shield sheath instead of one. One of these two cables is the "hot" conductor which is connected to the tip of each RCA plug on each end, and the other conductor is connected to the barrel, or "return" on each RCA on either end to complete the circuit. So, you ask, what of the shield. Glad you asked . The shield is connected to only one of the RCA connector's barrels on one end of the cable. The shield covers the entire length of the cable but is left floating at one end. The idea here is that while providing somewhat of a Faraday shield for the cable, keeping out RF intrference, the shield carries no current, the shielded conductors inside the sheath carries all of the signal. The arrow, points away from the end where the shield is connected to the barrel of the RCA along with the return conductor inside the cable. The arrow, ostensibly exists for those who want to use central or "star" grounding in their system. In the case that, for instance, one had a preamplifier and separate power amps, and wanted to use star grounding. One would make sure that all of the arrows pointed AWAY FROM one's preamp. I.E. All shields, irrespective of signal flow would be grounded to the box of the pre-amp (and, ideally, the pre-amp would be grounded by a robust length of cable to a cold water pipe somewhere in the building). Does it work? Beats me, but I'm skeptical. While the concept of single point grounding is valid for complex electronic systems, I'm not at all sure audio systems qualify. Perhaps if one had a bad ground loop in one's system, or lived in an area of very high RF interference, star grounding might make a difference, but if so, I've yet to see (hear) it. In fact, from what I know, the entire concept of the co-axial cable shield as non-current carrying Faraday shield is suspect.

[gmgraves]

I had decided to pass on a comment about Mr. Aczel; I didn't want to start a flame war and thought it best to pass. Thanks for being so diplomatic about it and I will simply add my support to your tactfully made statement.

 

Regarding Tim's comments about tubes, I like some tube stuff. I like some solid state stuff. Ultimately I prefer not to have an identifiable sound. They each have strengths and weaknesses and the very best of each don't particularly sound like either, at least in my opinion. The traditional, romantic tube sound is certainly colored and inaccurate. Much solid state has its own issues. Pick your poison. I can prefer either on a given day on a given system. Some days older sounding tube designs sound hopelessly colored, on either days solid state sounds sterile. On the other hand something like an ARC REF3 simply sounds like music and I really don't care what technology was used to achieve it.

 

With regard to tubes vs Solid-State, I agree. There was a time when SQ wise, the two technologies were miles apart. Now days most tube amps are much more neutral than they used to be. For me the question of "which" comes down to convenience. I used to own a pair of VTL 140 mono-blocs each containing SIX #807 output tubes, and that was driven by an Audio Research SP-11 preamp. With (IIRC) 12 tubes. The system was very musical, but generated a lot of heat in the summer months. I also think tube amps look sexy. But having a complement of tubes on hand for the inevitable failure was a PITA. finally, I sold both, and replaced them with an integrated Harman-Kardon HK-990, and it sounds much more neutral at less than half what I got selling my tube gear! People ask me if I miss the tubes, but sonically, I never looked back.

[rom661]

Hi George - Thanks for the quote. It's even closer now. But first of all, you found something that does a great job of connecting you to your music and that's really what counts. My post is a little out of date now. My current setup is an Audio Research REF5SE with an Ayre VX-5 Diamond power amp. It really does it for me. If you want a little more of the solid state sound (the amp is SS with no negative feedback) ARC's LS27, a hybrid, does a nice job of giving you the solid state drive with the finesse and organic feel of tubes. And only two tubes to replace every four years or so. Thanks again - it was nice seeing your post pop up in my email.

[rom661]

The high end Charmin stuff. Anything else, you might as well just wipe your butt with it....

[zackthedog]

I don't use them because I have to move my speakers out for listening, and because I'm more focused on other issues in my modest system. But two of the best systems I've ever heard used cable risers (DIY ones, IIRC), so who knows? I'm guessing a quick AB may not tell you anything--perhaps because the effect of contact with a carpet of whatever builds up over time? Honestly, I have no idea, but in my experience tweaks like this are part of an overall, well-established system that has settled into a state of excellence, for whatever reasons.

[AnotherSpin]

just splurge and go with the toilet paper cable riser

 

 

I was experimenting with risers for some time. As a result I came to some conclusions. Risers made some very slight, but audible improvement. Second, material from which risers made is important. Paper or wood were "sounding" worse, than ceramic, or glass, for example. Only tried DIY.

 

I do not use risers anymore. My stereo system is much simple and compact now what makes majority of tweaks irrelevant. What really worked within expensive set just makes no difference now.

 

Also, I believe risers would work or not work for you depending on floor type and covering very much. In my "risers days" I had tiled floor with electric heating underneath. It might be risers separated cables from certain electric field for good results. Vibrations of various kind would be controlled for a good effect too.

[groovybassist]

kennyb123:

 

Agree 100% - Stillpoints are the real deal.

[mav52]

I was experimenting with risers for some time. As a result I came to some conclusions. Risers made some very slight, but audible improvement. Second, material from which risers made is important. Paper or wood were "sounding" worse, than ceramic, or glass, for example. Only tried DIY.

 

I do not use risers anymore. My stereo system is much simple and compact now what makes majority of tweaks irrelevant. What really worked within expensive set just makes no difference now.

 

Also, I believe risers would work or not work for you depending on floor type and covering very much. In my "risers days" I had tiled floor with electric heating underneath. It might be risers separated cables from certain electric field for good results. Vibrations of various kind would be controlled for a good effect too.

 

 

I could imagine the affects with a tiled floor with electric heating underneath.

[AnotherSpin]

I could imagine the affects with a tiled floor with electric heating underneath.

No need to run imagination too far...) In fact, heating was used only in cold part of the year, no difference for sound between summer and winter.