How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

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I rather dislike the tone of the article in the first post to the thread.  It is common.  And gee you go to a high dollar dealer and he tells you it takes high dollars to get okay enough sound.  Big surprise there. 

 

I've said it before, buy a pair of JBL 305s at $300 a pair. This gets you far along the curve of truly good sound.  It isn't SOTA and it isn't everything, but it is very good.  Add one of the better $200 or so DAC/Pre's with a computer source and you are there.  

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5 hours ago, GUTB said:

Yeah, the Emotiva speakers are probably awful. Notice how they will have a room at audio shows but somehow not manage to have a system set up.

Never noticed that.  Never been to an audio show.  I have listened to Emotiva gear in the systems of audiophiles.  Their natural habitat.  

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8 hours ago, davide256 said:

hmm, that's actually scary. Walking dead rock musicians coming in to the home for a reprise of their great performances of the 60's and 70's.  Wait,

I'm not sure I could tell live or dead with the Rolling Stones.

Sure you could.  Have to key in on Keith.  

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Just now, GUTB said:

 

I doubt any audiophiles have Emotiva.

As per the norm, you'd be wrong. 

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10 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

"An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction."

 

 

Is that big enough?

You left out neuro-typical before person.  

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6 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

At least the Marantz stuff is built better. For the budding audio enthusiast on an incredibly short budget, then fine-go buy all the Emotiva you want. 

Should we try for a middle ground and compare Emotiva to JVC of the 80's/90's?

 

Actually I'm not sure Emotiva is quite equal to Adcom gear from those days, but some of it is.  By equal I mean in its relative place in the spectrum of quality and performance for the time. Some of the Adcom gear was surprisingly good, and some was just okay.  Build was good for price I would say.  That is somewhat how I look at Emotiva.  A couple things I think are over-achievers and others okay for the price.  

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39 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I appreciate the genteel version of it sucks...

I see you are digital all the way.  Something either sucks or it doesn't.  Very binary. 

 

Surely you are capable of more nuanced ideas.

 

With your attitude there is one speaker in the world that is the very best and all others suck.  Even those 98% as good.  If that speaker costs $10 million then everyone with less money should just do without because nobody wants a sucky speaker.  Ditto for amps, for preamps, for sources.  

 

Looking at the other end at musicians I think of poor backwoods people that still like music.  They'll take a string, a 2x4 and washtub to make a stringed instrument.  Some can make pretty good music that way.  Does it suck compared to fine guitar?  Maybe, but they'd be poorer still without it. 

 

So sucky stuff in my opinion costs way more than better performing gear.  Or it breaks too often and fails to perform the intended function.  One can get much too snobby with your approach which is why many of us poke fun at you.  The world isn't high end audio Highlander where there can be only one!

 

 

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55 minutes ago, mansr said:

I don't understand the constant talk about upgrade paths and what to get next. Is it not permitted to simply buy a competent system one can afford and be happy with it (for the time being)?

It is a good idea.

 

I think everyone starts not fully knowing what they wish to invest in time or effort, and not having experience to be a good judge of a system's capabilities.  Just additional experience and exposure usually will lead you to making better choices.  If you go thru this cycle a few times it becomes a habit of sorts. 

 

Now could a dealer or other person put together a competent system you would be happy with for quite some time?  Sure in theory.  However, if I had been advised to get my current gear initially I would have been appalled and bewildered.  I likely wouldn't have had the good sense to take the advice given.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

I’m going to be attending THE Show this weekend, and I’m going to listen to a lot of systems. Now that I’ve settled on the ProAc D30Rs I’m on the hunt for an amp/pre or integrated that can take them to the next level. A wider strategic aim is to build a system that can reveal more benifits from higher end sources.

 

This is a normal audiophile process. Attaining higher sonic benifits always results in spending more. I’m fully prepared to face the fact that any good enough amp is going to have an MSRP over $10k. Of course I’ll hunt the used market, maybe get a show deal, etc. The price isn’t the goal, it’s just a barrier. I wish I can just go onto Amazon buy some Cambridge, Yamaha, Marantz, etc, and have that next performance level upgrade — but that isn’t possible.

 

Also, it’s not like the D30Rs are my stopping point just because I like them a lot. One day maybe I can have TADs. The great thing about being an audiophile is that your music library evolves with your system. 

How did you come to settle on the Proac D30 R speakers?

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26 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I’ve had my eyes on them for 2 years after I first heard them at a dealer. I heard them again at another dealer at some length, and I knew it had most of what I wanted at an attainable price — dynamic, resolving, super imagers and very nice ribbon tweeters that produce crystal clear non-fatiguing highs. The newer D-series with ribbons don’t come up used that often so when one popped up I grabbed them and so far it’s been a great move...even though I ended up having to get rid of the Linnenberg monos which are very fine amps and a big value at $5.4k; they just couldn’t handle the ProAcs.

 

So I ended up with a used Odyssey Stratos because according to Straus at Oddessey his amps match very well with ProAcs and at $800 used it was a no-brainer as a filler amp. This "filler" amp is actually very nice, and anyone who’s visited Odyssey rooms knows that they are very good performers. It’s just that I don’t want just "good", I want to take the ProAcs to the next level. Amps that I’ve heard at shows that stood out to me: Mark Levinson 585, Linnenberg Alegros, some Audiolab, CH Precision, VAC Statement, Raven Audio Shaman monos. I’ve heard some great systems like Esoteric, TAD and GamuT but it’s hard to separate the amp from the rest of the system sonically speaking. Some of these amps are attainable...some are aspirational.

 

So what’s wrong with Odyssey? Nothing (except for it popping my speakers when turned on/off...it’s 16 years old maybe I’ll send it in for service/upgrades), it’s a GOOD amp, doesn’t suck at all. It’s just not next-level gear, and I want my ProAcs to go next level.

Well those are biampable.  I would think something for the ribbons and something else for the low end makes lots of sense.  With some synergy you might get performance beyond expectations. 

 

The Linnenberg might have been a good choice for the ribbons.  Or maybe some wide bandwidth tubes like the OTL Atmaspheres for the ribbons.  Or maybe David Berning OTLs. Then maybe a more conventional good xfmr coupled tube amp for the low end.  The VACs are probably a good guess on that end.  Or the Wolcott audio amps. 

 

Of course the Berning amps or Wolcotts might make a good choice even single amped. 

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3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 2 in parallel, like you were suggesting, that would be quite a bit longer with the layouts of many members, is entirely different.

 

AGAIN : The cables should be switched at both ends !!!

 Are you E.Es too slack, and complacent in your blinkered views of what people can ,and can not hear,to do this properly ?

Well optimally you'd switch at both ends.  But if not doing that is adequate for 90% of those doing this maybe that is still an okay suggestion.  Especially if you amended it to say unless your interconnects exceed 3 meters you'd be safe doing it as George suggests.  

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Also I think we are mixing up engineering approaches with science.  There are some subtle differences. When enough is known dropping the last little bit of scientific rigor for engineering practicality is very reasonable and efficient.  The working of audio signal over cables certainly falls in this range. So much so any who disagree have the burden of proof.

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1 minute ago, GUTB said:

Several really good systems at THE Show, which, BTW, is a much more luxury experience than AXPONA.

 

I ended up going for a beautiful Triangle Arts turntable and speed controller at decent show prices. Now I have to figure out a rack system to support 100 lbs of turntable gear. They were showing a really good sounding 12" arm and high-end cartridge, but $16k for that is a bridge to far for me; I’ll get a nice arm when I get my next bonus. Very good sound in that room — but damn, TA electronics are expensive...

Some cinder blocks and 2x4s will hold 100 lbs easy.

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3 hours ago, sandyk said:

Garbage. " Enough is known" is a copout !  It assumes far too much.

Your typical Audiophile simply does not feel the need to provide proof of any kind to others.  There are large numbers of C.A. members who hear differences between cables of various kinds etc. They are usually quite happy to pass their findings on to other Audiophiles to try. However, very few of them bother to frequent this area of the Forum where very little is added to the advancement of Computer Audio.

 Very few Audiophiles could care less if what they are reporting is accepted by E.E.s or not !

If there were no Subjective Reports  there wouldn't be the need for Objective Testing, and new product development would stagnate, other than perhaps adding a little " Bling" to ensure further sales.

 

These other parts of the forum wouldn't happen to be selling something would they?

 

Some E.E.'s are quite happy to share their knowledge and experience.  Some audiophiles seem reluctant to take advantage of that. 

 

You seem to have a habit of painting with a broad brush those who listen to EEs and EEs both as negative groups of people hindering others from advancing when there isn't any truth to it. 

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Which makes no sense. Coax is rated in pF/foot (or meter) and is parallel capacitance. The longer the cable, the more capacitance, as parallel capacitance is directly additive. So if you had a 1ft coax that had 20 pF/ft, then of course, the 1 ft long cable would have 20 pF of capacitance, if you doubled the length, it would give you 40 pF overall capacitance. Here's the rub. If you put two 1 ft coax cables in parallel, to the circuit, it looks just the same as a 2 ft long coax because both lengthening and doubling up of the coax adds capacitance in parallel. 

In the case that Alex presents, where we are talking about RG59U as an example, it has 30 pF/foot. Three meters of that cable would have 270 pF of parallel capacitance. same as two runs of 1.5 meters in parallel with a Y-adapter cable. So I don't see how increasing the length of the cable would make not switching the driven end OK, where a shorter pair with less capacitive reactance would require switching the driven end???!! ?

I think you read my post in too big a hurry. You have it backwards.

 

 ....... if you amended it to say UNLESS your interconnects exceed 3 meters you'd be safe doing it as George suggests.  

 

UNLESS your cable exceeds 3 meters you'd be safe using George's method.  In fact you'd usually be safe with more, but few people have cables longer than that so I picked it as a cutoff which in itself is arbitrary.  Mainly trying to get the point across that yes at some point it might be a problem, but rarely, and for very few people.  So I think Alex is being far too hard line about it. 

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

so, now it's many many on the other side??

 

how does the  internal electrical noise get past the galvanic isolation and into the DAC?

- or does it kill the nice unicorns INSIDE the computer??

- or what?

 

and.. how does software that plays from system memory improve SQ???

 

These deviant unicorns are sneaky, and not so noticeable inside a computer. 

 

 

However, these rainbow breathing unicorns can force them to exit.  

 

 

The evil unicorns don't like to be noticed as they do their dirty work.  They especially dislike being remembered.  So they naturally shy away from memory chips.  Play from memory chips keeps the dark unicorn forces at a distance, and good things like LPS and super power cords unleash the rainbow breath that can vanquish the dark unicorns completely. 

 

It is when you abandon the ideas carefully inculcated into the heads of EE students at university with the intent of enforcing permanent blind spots that you can make progress using real science like this.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Listening tests are nowhere.

 

So is this now here or is it no where?????

 

Curious unicornologists want to know.  

 

Perhaps it is the linguistic version of yin-yang.................nowhere.......................

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3 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

That a very 1800's or DC power view of electrical conduction, kind of ignores quantum dynamics. When dealing with AC current, skin effect applies for conductors and junction effects for the joining of two different metals ( cable and terminating cable plug)

Very 1800's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations

 

Yes, I should have mentioned Heaviside's influence on this too.  

 

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2 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

I agree with that. One thing I like about the Head Fi forum is that they keep the threads focused on practical discussions about equipment reviews and good combinations to try, and the moderators intervene pretty quickly when an off-topic 'cables don't matter' or similar discussion starts.

 

If the thread is in the middle of a 'cables don't matter' argument, it makes it very difficult to recommend specific cables. On this particular thread entitled 'How much does it cost to be an audiophile' you would expect that the main contents of the thread would be recommendations for entry level systems, including cable recommendations, as even if you believe they all sound the same, you still need cables to actually make the system work.

 

I listed such a suggested system on page 2.  It involved the LSR305s listed in your sig.  (happen to have some LX5 btw).  It appeared to generate no interest.  A complete musical system for less cost than a USB cable.  Not expensive enough to convince apparently.  Not even discussion agreeing with or disagreeing.  So I assume most people read it, discounted it completely thinking I don't have an idea what good sound is, and went on to post all this other silliness. 

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11 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Yes, if folks have a mid fi souce a cable change will have limited effect.

Or the way some talk, with a good enough cable there are no mid-fi sources.

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27 minutes ago, Nordkapp said:

It cost this guy $6 mil. to be an audiophile. 30-Mcintosh MC2102s in case you were wondering.

 

Looks like it must be a canine's system.  Notice the cooling fan.  Scruffy is no dummy.  

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Sounds like these Tibetans keep chanting about money.  

 

 

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3 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Sure, flavor to taste.  The RME being discussed lately, plus my experience with them, just made it pop to mind.

With regard to flavoring the RME has some EQ options the Benchmark doesn't. 

 

If you are choosing between Benchmark and RME, you'll not go wrong either way.  

 

For easy peasy good sound for cheap, my suggestions would be the little LSR powered speakers and jumping to one of the Focal options if you can afford a little more.  DAC is whatever fits.  Certainly the RME, Benchmark, and others would be fine.  I'd suggest other pro audio interfaces for DAC duty, but some like the creature comforts of consumer pre/DACs.  You also have increasing options for streamer DACs which have some nice features.  

 

This is a good time to be an audiophile/music lover.  Some pretty high quality sound is available which isn't a bank account buster nor tweaky and difficult to use. 

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Thunderbolt connections??????????????????

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3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

The best tweak is to stay away from USB cables from ANYBODY! Use a NAS and Coax SPDIF and avoid USB audio. It all sucks! 

Why?

 

What about it sucks?

 

What facts back up that idea?