Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[esldude]

57 minutes ago, wgscott said:

It does make sense that if such a device does work, the effect would be most demonstrable on a noisy DAC.

 

What surprised me (to the small extent that anything does anymore) is that, despite all the publicity to the contrary, the Schitt Modi 2 seems to have some serious fundamental design flaw.

 

Yes it it does seem that way.  Why is a good question?  The designer would seem capable of making something not so thrown off by the USB connection.  Plenty of others do it without costing much money. 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, internethandle said:

 

That seems like an odd conclusion given that 

 

a) Schiit obviously would not agree their product measures poorly (or have an explanation for why it measures poorly with Amir's equipment), and so it follows they then would be unlikely to offer a product to fix a problem they don't believe or want people to believe exists.

 

b) Schiit claims nothing about actual improvements to sound via the Wyrd, or at least objectively believe it shouldn't be possible. It says so right on the product page. They do advertise that objectively it measures less noisily than a motherboard USB port. 

Don't you find it interesting that a $79 ADC/DAC with microphone inputs to boot, does not have this problem connected via USB?  Maybe Schiit should buy one and open it up to see how they managed that.

[esldude]

53 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I not going to blindly believe Amir's results. When someone else duplicates the results, I will start giving them some credence. 

Replication is good. 

 

OTOH, no I don't think Amir is in some big conspiracy to post false results.  As already asked by Speedskater Amir shows the ISO Regen cleaning up the Schiit Modi 2.  So you think that is false or misguided or improperly done measurements?  We know you are gored by any hint of negativity for Schiit.  That is okay, people own gear they like obviously.  The fact the inexpensive Modi 2 is not well isolated from noise on the USB doesn't invalidate your choice of the Yggrasil for a DAC.

[esldude]

39 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Amir's results could show the Modi was the quietist DAC under $100 and I wouldn't trust them....

Why?

[esldude]

13 minutes ago, internethandle said:

Well you could reverse that question and ask why one SHOULD trust Amir. Isn't one of the functions of objectivism espousing the idea that one prove that something is true before asking that it be disproven? I could be totally mistaken, but I haven't seen any credentials from him other than retired tech executive with apparently a lot of cash to burn and (purportedly) an Audio Precision Analyzer. Other than that there's a paucity of information about who he is/might represent, what exact equipment and conditions he tests with/in, etc.

 

It's also bizarre that we're even having this conversation, given that the conclusion Amir reached with his output-only measurements of the ISO Regen's effect on various DAC's is that ISO Regen provides no additional benefit. That he found one solitary DAC where it had a measurable effect is nice, but I severely doubt Uptone is going to want to market their device as only measurably effective on Schiit Modi 2's, not that they'd necessarily need to (nor would Schiit likely let them). It's equally bizarre to me that a group of audio objectivists have concluded there are problems with products that tend to attract objectivists (if I recall correctly, Amir has also found fault with a Bifrost) due to their low prices/irreverent marketing and poo-pooing of audiophile "voodoo."  I can imagine Schiit objectivist acolytes demanding in turn that Amir and co. prove that such aberrations are even audible.

 

In terms of Schiit's response/why their DAC might be found to be behaving this way, I can only guess, but if I had to conjecture I'd say it would probably resemble something in Jason Stoddard's "Schiit Happened" chapter where he explicates measurements in general and specifically how Schiit employs them in designing and testing their own product, linked below:

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up.701900/page-467#post_11763661

 

Still, for all my apologism, I do find it a little suspect, and wonder if the problems that Schiit was finding with customers having dropouts etc. with their USB implementations in their various DAC's (which was one of the primary reasons they developed the Wyrd, by their own account) has more to do with their USB receiving designs' vulnerabilities to USB port noise than with the noisy ports themselves. Regardless, with Gen 5 USB/Eitr it seems like they've at least solved that issue for most of their DAC's, but noticeably not for Modi, at least internally to the DAC and not yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Amir actually posted some of his credentials.  For one thing he has an EE degree.  So he shouldn't be completely clueless. He recently posted some of his background which you can read here:

 

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-7#post-46436

 

Some of his measures of other gear fit alongside those done elsewhere.  Some of the gear he measures turns out good, some not, and lots in between.  I see nothing suspicious in that.

 

I am no EE, but I have measured several pieces of gear getting virtually identical results to those I see from JA at Stereophile or Archimago or on Soundstage.net reviews.  Makes me trust my own measures if I get something which is especially good or bad versus expectations.  That may not convince anyone else if I put up such results without replication elsewhere.  I have two pieces of gear that Amir has used and shown some measures for.  They are like a 98% match for my own results with the caveat he has an AP and I don't just using a quieter and cleaner than average recording ADC.  So I am not suspicious his results are rigged, or in general highly misguided. 

 

One thing I agree with him on is the output of gear is what matters.  If the output hasn't changed in some way then it didn't sound different. 

[esldude]

16 minutes ago, internethandle said:

That brief autiobiography linked by esldude by Amir doesn't really give me much confidence in who he might be. Whenever someone provides a series of unverifiable claims about their identity that all read as highly impressive (he's read "all" the books and papers on DAC measurement, he introduced the use of AP analyzers to Sony, his work on signal processing at Microsoft touched "practically any product that plays audio"(? - he seems to mean with optical media here, but I'm not sure), his measurements "have been published in magazines and reviewed by countless people in the industry and research[sic]", etc.), it tends to perk my ears a bit. I think who he is would be less important if his work wasn't potentially effecting the livelihoods and reputations of what are often times small/boutique audio companies who deserve to know who they're up against.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/amir-majidimehr-0014a75

 

You could read this.  He was a VP at MS when they acquired Pacific Microsonics.  At one time when JJ Johnston (if you know who he is) worked for Microsoft it was within the group Amir was VP over. 

 

I don't personally know the guy, but you can see mention of him under the Windows Media Professional Audio section here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Media_Audio

 

Seems likely he did work at MS. 

 

He is listed as a Technical Editor at Widescreen Review at least as recently as January 2017 so that part is true.

 

Regardless of any of that, I too prefer to judge results and procedures rather than purely credentials. 

[esldude]

1 minute ago, internethandle said:

I'm also having trouble reconciling his measuring jitter plots/distributions and correlating them with his son reporting having heard computer activity through his DAC, which Amir posits is through the shared PC ground (this is in his semi-veiled Bifrost measurements). Objectivists I've run into tend to claim that hearing computer activity through a DAC is impossible, or that jitter numbers outside of huge spikes are inconsequential. Or take Stoddard's comments about jitter numbers mattering most at the DAC's wordclock and not its output:

 

 

 

 

How much of what Amir is measuring, in other words, should (objectively!) be audible? I'm asking these things mostly out of ignorance and/or genuine curiosity, so please don't take me for necessarily poking holes for the sake of doing so. 

I don't know who said you couldn't hear computer activity in a DAC.  Certainly many sound cards would let you hear mouse movements, clicks, and other things as noise via audio output.  This was what he reported for the Bifrost.  I don't know why he would make that up.  I have not yet heard any asynch USB connected device do that, though others have reported such for some DACs.  I had a Firewire audio interface that would do that with one particular laptop though not any others. I know any DAC that exhibited that I would return if it was happening with more than one computer.

 

I don't know how audible the apparent jitter in the Modi 2 would be either.  It was a topic as it has some sensitivity to the USB, and the ISO Regen did fix that. Vs other DACs that don't appear sensitive and don't appear to benefit from the Regen.  His aim I think was to see if the Regen benefited playback.  For most DACs he had on hand the answer was no.  I don't know that he is saying the Modi 2 improvement is audible using a Regen, only that it does have a measurably improved result with the Regen in place. A first step is show a difference occurs. 

[esldude]

51 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I worked at Apple for over 9 years. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the Engineering VPs and Senior Directors there that could not engineer their way out of a paper bag. So Amir being a VP of an Engineering group at MS means nothing to me in regards to him testing DACs and USB decrapifiers.

We already know you said you didn't care what his results you wouldn't believe them.  You never did answer why?

 

I too have run into plenty of engineers who were horrible in my day job.  Worked with them for years.  I was appalled that in CE's at least about 1/3 were truly incompetent and still kept jobs.  The rest were at least okay and a few truly excellent. 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Yes, plissken is "Jinjuku" at ASR (he is more polite here than there).  Dennis (esldude here) is Blumlein88 there.

 

Yes, I am Blumlein 88 at ASR.  Nothing nefarious.  After using the same moniker for 20 years thought I would try something different.

 

 

[esldude]

42 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

 

For your last question, my viewpoint is that measurements that we know how to do collectively have yet to be able to reflect/demonstrate what our ears can hear.  I strongly believe it is a major fallacy to claim that audibility must correspond to measurability, and the opposite being a fallacy as well: no measurement differences mean there cannot be audible differences.  I just don't believe the two need to be 100% correlated with each other.

 

 

 

Audibility must correspond to measurability in principle.  It may not be possible to yet do or interpret those measurements, but if something sounds different due to a change in soundwaves it must be a difference that can potentially be measured. 

 

That measurable differences must always be audible is of course a fallacy, but one rarely made by people who measure.   For instance here some have acted as if some 60 hz related hum was being offered up as proof of an audible problem.  It was merely offered up as something measurably different and slightly worse when the device was in use.  It was not claimed to be an audible issue.  I don't even know the higher jitter levels exhibited by the Modi 2 without a USB cleaner would be audible.  It does clearly indicate that device is more effected by what is on the USB buss than several others tested.  As well as indicating there are DACs that can benefit from a device like the Regen measurably.  The potential that the ISO Regen improves sound with that DAC is at least possible as we can see it measurably improves the result. 

[esldude]

40 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

This is another area where Ethernet based DAC's are going to win out. The non-realtime, high bandwidth, low latency, deep cache and much better implemented clock domain boundaries. 

 

Just give me an appliance with  an 1/8th, 1/4th, or 1/2 GB of buffer and kiss the rest goodbye. 

 

I like my DC-1 but my next DAC won't have a USB port on it. 

I haven't had problems with USB DACs, but I sure hope the Dante network or something like it becomes common and affordable. 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

Got it. I guess "plissken" wasn't available as a handle when he joined Amir's site.  

 

Maybe plissken is the hidden special secret identity. I have run across a Jinjuku on some other audio sites.  I am sure I have seen one at AVS which I think might be the same person.  Not sure, nor do I think it a big deal.  It was easy to figure out if you read both sites without him saying anything about it.  So I don't think he was hiding anything. 

 

Maybe I need a second secret identity here.  I might choose spirograph.  That way I have an abundance of fitting avatars to choose from like:

 

 

 

[esldude]

16 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

I agree in principle.  The challenge here is how to have measurements adequately illustrate what our ear/brain are capable of discerning.

 

We have come far over the decades in creating (discovering?) tech attributes like THD+N, intermodulation, TIM, S/N, dynamic range, etc. and techniques like FFT to help us characterize the performance of audio gear, but I'd like to think that our ear/brain is by far the most sophisticated audio instrument, and these attributes and techniques fall far short of being able to characterize what we can actually perceive.  In other words, the capability of our ear/brain is far advanced beyond our current knowledge in math & science related to audio & sound.  Just because no graph can currently illustrate a difference we heard doesn't mean that difference cannot exist.  We are either giving our ear/brain much too little credit for its abilities or attempting to distill the perception down to a bunch of fairly rigid and narrow attributes that are insufficiently representative.

 

Also, I listen to music, not test tones.  Using an FFT plot to illustrate differences in jitter, noise level, etc. with a single test tone may be straightforward, but how do you do that for a piece of complex music, say a polyphonic Mahler symphony with a whole bunch of instruments playing concurrently?  I don't find it surprising that people get offended when told they are delusional in claiming to hear a sonic difference when the FFT graph clearly shows no difference.  Again, being unable to illustrate a measured difference does not automatically mean no difference can possibly exist.  It is a fallacy to claim so.  In my book, the openness to accept the possibility that current measurements can easily fall short of representing what we can actually hear is a form of humility that can help us get farther.  To admit we have yet to learn everything there is to learn about sound and perception should motivate us to continue working to better characterize what our ear/brain does so effortlessly.

 

Also, good sound requires a balance of art & science/engineering.  It's never been just one or the other.  The greatest audio engineers in the world designing by tech specs alone may not yield the best sounding gear.  There are many counter examples.  Tube amplifiers often have poorer specs (S/N, THD, noise floor, etc.) vs. solid state amps, but many audiophiles prefer the tube sound.  The takeaway?  S/N, THD, etc. by themselves are inadequate to characterize or predict what the humans prefer.  Even engineers in Intel Corporation today have not fully grasped some of the basics of good sound engineering.  Great tech specs alone do not necessarily translate to great sound, and in real life the opposite often occurs.

 

It is with these realizations that lead me to believe that listening with ears is essential during the development of any audio related product.  For example, I know that UpTone's final decision on the USB hub chip brand/model for their ISO Regen was heavily based on listening feedback from a few highly respected individuals.  This tells me that UpTone knows that tech spec superiority and audio superiority are not necessarily strongly correlated.  It's another way of saying it's virtually impossible to engineer audio excellence without any listening involved.

 

I'm not belittling the importance or value of our technical/scientific knowledge of audio.  For example, I'm thoroughly convinced of the usefulness of FFT.  It's just that I believe we still have a long way to go to fully comprehend and characterize the human perception we call hearing.

 

Null testing can do the trick. 

 

As for preference, well preference and fidelity are two very different things.  Yes many prefer tube amps, many prefer compressed musical recordings, neither has anything to do with fidelity.  That tube amp signature can be fully replicated with solid state gear of good design.  So don't confuse highly respected listening for preference with fidelity. 

[esldude]

On 8/6/2017 at 8:28 AM, Superdad said:

 

Because it is not a ground loop he is forming (though if he puts the ISO REGEN switch in the defeat position, his setup--using single-end connection to the AP and having the same computer connected to both the DAC and the analyzer--would surely form one of those too!).  No, he is forming an AC leakage current loop.

 

That is very different.  It is a significant, widely overlooked issue in audio (and even with measurement equipment), and it very many exists, as exemplified by Amir's graph--which he completely misinterpreted as being the ISO REGEN putting mains noise on the 5VBUS line into the DAC.

 

John has written extensively about leakage/loops.  He has explained:

• what they are (AC traveling over every sort of connection including DC connections);
• where they come from (virtually every power supply; linears have leakage though not as much as switchers, and batteries have none);
• why they form (must be two PSUs--it is the interaction between two or more);
• and how best to mitigate them (reduce impedance between gear by plugging all system mains power cords into a heavy power stirip with zero filtering elements--use a low interwinding-capacitance isolation transformer for protection of gear)

By the way, one of the hallmarks of our own UltraCap LPS-1, its raison d'etre, is that by being "battery-like" (without the performance shortcomings of batteries), it blocks the path of leakage currents.  Or I should more correctly say that it keeps the device being powered from contributing any PS leakage the system's leakage loops.  EVERY audio system has leakage loops, but the combination of the ISO REGEN and the LPS-1 is what creates a complete "moat" between the computer (with its very high and typically quite nasty and "bursty" leakage) and the DAC.

 

Remember, galvanic isolation (just one of the functions of the ISO REGEN) is the blockage of DC not AC.

 

You can read Amir's reply here:

 

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-8#post-46534

[esldude]

So if one had a switch mode amp one needs to spend $96 more to isolate the ISO Regen to isolate the USB?

[esldude]

32 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

So are 60Hz & harmonics at -110dbFS or lower amplitudes supposed to be audible at the DAC output or not?

 

They are not going to be audible. 

 

Though as a consumer I don't think I would be happy to spend money on a device meant to isolate my system from noise and have it make the 60 hz PS noise 20 db worse than it otherwise is without that device.

[esldude]

2 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Spot on, just about nobody one gives a sh*t about ASR.

Shouldn't that be spelled Sh**t.

[esldude]

5 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

So Amir's own control experiment (replacing Mean Well SMPS with his lab power supply) should indicate the Mean Well is the culprit, and the ISO REGEN is merely susceptible to a power supply that can contribute to AC leakage.

 

The problem I see with an ISO REGEN that integrates the circuitry of an LPS-1 supply (or equivalent) is going to be a complete non-starter: way too expensive to improve an aspect of device performance that multiple folks have said is inaudible.  I certainly don't want to pay over $700 for such a device.  UpTone has essentially given customers an a la carte option: if you believe galvanically isolated USB regenerator is good enough for you its $325, but if you want the above plus AC leakage loop firewalling you can BYOB (bring your own battery) or buy the LPS-1 as a premium option.  I see nothing wrong with this.  No one said AC leakage loop firewalling comes for free.

 

Well actually in the case of the iFi and the Behringer it does come free.  All the ISO switching supply issues vanished if you removed the ISO going to straight USB feed.  Sometimes simpler really is better.

[esldude]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

After playing with CA for three+ years I think of the entire digital side, PC, storage,  USB chain, DAC, upsampling and control software and power supplies as a single unit where the individual components are designed to work together. Everything seems to matter.

 

All together I have $2500 to $3000 in an audio source that competes with the best turntables and CD players in the world.  Not too bad. Plus it can be upgraded as further innovations become available. And I have no need to buy an expensive preamp.

What if you could do the same for $79?  I am not saying you can, but would you believe it?  I actually think you can for about $500.  But not as long as you let your hearing be swayed by knowing what you are listening to.  Would you believe your own ears, and only your ears?

[esldude]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Uptone specifically claims that the USB cleaning done by the IR "makes the music sound better", not just that the USB output of the Regen is cleaner than what went in. 

 

If such devices make the music sound better, the only way they can be doing so is by resulting in a better sounding output from a USB DAC, than the output from the same DAC with no IR in the chain. If the output of the IR is cleaner, but this output has no effect on the the output of the DAC, then what is the point of the IR?

 

So this would logically need to be measured at the DAC, not at the Regen. 

 

Then the question becomes, do we know what to measure at the DAC and are we capable of measuring it? And secondarily, is Amir measuring the right thing and does he know how to measure it properly?

 

This is the real question.  I don't doubt the cleaning up of the USB signal by the Regen.  I do doubt that it makes for better sound.

 

In the case of the measurements, we have one DAC very susceptible to what is on the USB and the Regen cleaned it up.  We have others that seem relatively un-bothered by the USB quality.  Some look the same at the output with the Regen and some show a bit of extra 60 hz components with it (these being too low to be audible).  So it would appear you don't need the Regen.  So what is useful are measurements of which DACs are in need of having the USB very clean. 

 

I am a bit hazy on the details, but I seem to remember mansr posting perhaps some USB or it might have been SPDIF coax cables of very long lengths like 100 ft, showing the eye pattern was all messed up, and yet his DAC put out just as clean a signal either way.  DACs that don't need this cleaning are a good place to spend money it seems to me.  And it seems some of those cost no more than the Regen. 

[esldude]

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-10#post-46627

 

You can read in the above post and the next few posts additional testing done.  Including the excellent suggestion (imo) of using a 70 hz power supply to see which device is the source of various PS related signals. 

Essentially, with a laptop on battery, with an adjustable lab supply at 70 hz, with a USB cable wonky enough and long enough using 3 connected together it begins causing issues, the ISO Regen appears to be the source of the 60 hz related increase in the noise floor. It appears unable to help the clock of the receiving DAC 'clock' better.  Etc. etc.  Please do read the posts for details.

 

I would say the only remaining choices would be an isolator on the Regen, or everything else or use a better power supply.  Using a better power supply would net you the same result with at least the Behringer as not using the Regen.  Which makes it all seem rather pointless to use the Regen.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

This whole thread--and the really distasteful name calling one at ASR--is really getting out of hand.  All this fuss about the optional $10 PS that 30% of people buy with the ISO REGEN.

 

Why?

Because he can't find something else to measure?  Because no other audio components come with wall warts?  Because Amir and all his people are so desperate to discredit UpTone and all the people who enjoy our products?

All of the above it would seem.

 

 

All Amir--and those who keep hailing his posts--is proving with those supposed power supply tests is that he does not understand how and where leakage loops occur.

I have already said that this is not about leakage from the computer side (the ISO REGEN does block that).  So laptop on battery or AC does not matter.

All of what is being seen is the interaction between the SMPS in his AP analyzer and the Mean Well powering the downstream side of the ISO REGEN.

[And to whoever suggested just putting the AP on an isolation transformer--that likely won't work.  This is AC leakage over DC connections--in other words it is going from the USB ground, to the DAC, then on the RCA cables to the analyzer, then through the power supply.]

 

So what he is measuring does not matter unless you are using a preamp with an SMPS.  In which case you should buy a $35 linear supply for the ISO REGEN.

 

Again, this is not the first time Amir has proved he is not set up to properly test products powered by an SMPS.  He did the exact same thing when he tested the microRendu powered by its (also optional) iFi iPower.

Really he should ask his buddies at Audio Precision to offer a proper LPS for their analyzer so it can stop interacting with device measurements.  Knowing AP they would probably charge $4,000 for such an option, but hey, Amir can swing it in the name of "Audio Science!"

So unless you are using a DAC/preamp with switching supply (I mean noooobody has one of those right) or a class D amp with switching supply (no one uses those either do they), the ISO has no path to leak AC across DC to cause increased 60 hz hum components at the output?

 

I would be more interested in the degraded signal using the serial connected USB cables that the Regen failed to clean up.  What can you say about that? 

 

A side comment, I also believe if Amir had found the ISO Regen did something positive in his measurements he would have shown that.  He did show that for the Modi 2. 

[esldude]

49 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Dennis:

It is not a matter of lack of "clean up."  What is happening there (with 23 feet of super thin USB cables strung together?) is a degradation of signal integrity bumping up against the limitations of the Silanna chip and its interface with the hub chip we chose.  Basically those crap cables at unsanctioned length are inducing duty-cycle errors between the Silanna isolator chip and the hub chip.  Amir is inducing data errors, so expect lots of nasties to be heard.

 

Limitations of the technology.  We do not market the ISO REGEN as a USB extender.  But of course now that Amir has found something else at the margins, you boys over at ASR are likely to spend days crowing about it and demeaning the product and my company with findings that have no relation to the use of the product.  I see that he is already posting WAV files recording the noise of what he does not even realize are data errors.

 

And you wonder why I have contempt for what is going on...

 

I am sure most people, or I know for a fact when I heard the sound with the extension cables, I assumed it was actual data errors.  I have asked Amir to check for that.  Don't know if he will or not.   Obviously he was hoping to degrade the signal and see if the Regen helped.  Had it helped he would have posted those measurements.  And it would have been good for you.  OTOH, it didn't, and I find myself wondering what the parameters are of your device when it helps.  So far it helps a Modi 2. That is clear and obvious and shows there are situations where your device is beneficial.  Yet if for the price of your device you can instead by another better DAC that does not need it well?

 

So I am wondering why when the cable is starting to induce errors from a presumably distorted eye pattern the errors are worse or induce noise into the DAC which is so much more objectionable than if you remove the ISO Regen?  Maybe the errors have become too much, certainly I would hear and not be happy with either of those results.  So what is the situation where the Regen helps?  When the signal is already pretty good, and you make it better, but there are no visible benefits in the output signal? 

 

Again if, and when it has shown, that the ISO Regen improves a measured result there has been no problem acknowledging that and putting up the results.  It is not Amir's fault it may be problematic with certain pairing of SMPS gear (though to be honest it still appears the problems are with the stock Regen supply from what I have seen of the measurements).  So rather than try to discredit the messenger maybe acknowledge the truth and accept it.

[esldude]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sometimes it is not the message--rather it is the erroneous conclusions and rush to judgement that I disagree with.  Whether by Amir or the rest of the crew there and here, there is an obvious agenda to discredit our device using whatever means--and nasty words--possible.

 

As someone pointed out, UpTone is not the only firm who has had to put up with this sort of defamation.  I recall iFi spent a few weeks trying in vain to explain things to Amir.

 

And of course there is the lovely "job" he did on the microRendu--another product well loved by thousands.

Alex after the most recent test results I am wondering what is the situation where the Regen will show a benefit.

 

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-12#post-46693

 

http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/uptone-iso-regen-review-and-measurements.1829/page-12#post-46694

 

From your website emphasis in bold is yours:

 

It is called “REGEN” since it completely REGENerates the data signals that cables are messing up.

 

Amir put together some cables to certainly mess up the signal with the skinny extension cables on the USB.  I understand that a point is reached where nothing can save a signal messed up enough.  The USB input to the Behringer DAC did a better job on the messed up cables than the Regen.  Though both were clearly struggling.  Then, Amir puts in place an inexpensive ($29) USB hub of no particular pedigree, and it does regenerate the signal enough to allow the DAC to put out a clean signal.  This inexpensive Best Buy hub using a SMPS did not pollute the results of the DAC output with 60 hz noise and its harmonics the way the ISO Regen did.  In one case we have the ISO Regen and some poor cabling which results in unlistenable distortion from data errors.  Replace it with a $29 USB hub and we get a clean signal. 

 

I make no bones of the fact I have been incredulous about USB cleaners.  USB for the great majority of DACs it is a fine connection.  Yet out of nothing a hysteria has been created that USB is noisy and people approach its use with trepidation.  I don't consider that a service to music loving audiophiles.  Even if we start to get a weak signal conventional USB hubs can help.  Exactly when, where and under what conditions are the benefits of the ISO Regen to be found?  It seems hard to find.  So far it helps a Modi 2.  It seems unlikely to help most DACs.  I wonder if the Modi 2 will give a clean output with the Best Buy hub?

[esldude]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

What else has been tried? Perhaps the proper solution with the Modi 2 is to buy a different DAC. You can get a respectable DAC for the price of the Regen alone.

Yes, this is the solution to the Modi 2.