Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[Jud]

3 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Heard this and was impressed greatly, especially with the "heft" of the the delivery.  One question, though:  not a huge deal, but does this DAC support native DSD or are those impressive DSD specs for DoP? 

It was all the guy who set up the system.

 

😉

[Mike Rubin]

22 minutes ago, Jud said:

It was all the guy who set up the system.

 

😉

Sure was!  Thanks for letting me hear it.  I am completely envious! 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Rune said:

It plays native DSD512.

Thank you! 

[Jud]

18 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Sure was!  Thanks for letting me hear it.  I am completely envious! 

Absolutely our pleasure. Happy 4th! 😊

[asdf1000]

Hi @Miska

 

Have you seen this same 'ESS Sabre hump' in your IMD measurements of your Pre Box S2 DAC?

 

Does enabling distortion compensation fix it?

 

Some people on ASR have suggested it may be the cause of the hump.

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Em2016 said:

Does enabling distortion compensation fix it?

 

Some people on ASR have suggested it may be the cause of the hump.

 

I don't remember... The hump is so small compared to the massive distortion without the compensation, that even if it causes the hump, it is still definitely worth keeping the compensation on.

 

Regarding measurements, recently I started doing TIM measurements for DACs too and also in this case, distortion on S2D is lower with DSD512 inputs than with PCM.

 

Here's 19+20k IMD test with 10 dB input level steps... You can see the 1 kHz difference product jumps a little at -40 dBFS input level.

 

-60 dBFS:

-50 dBFS:

-40 dBFS:

-30 dBFS:

-20 dBFS (now you can also see that the digital filter in ESS Sabre has just about -100 dB stop-band attenuation, you can see images clearly in this plot):

 

Also the hump is nearly non-existent with DSD512...

 

-60 dBFS:

-50 dBFS:

-40 dBFS:

-30 dBFS:

-20 dBFS:

 

With DSD512 input due to higher data rate you can start seeing the USB packet ticking at 8 and multiples (16 kHz, 32 kHz, etc) at -140 dB level. That packet ticking part is exactly same for 768k PCM input, but the IMD hump is back.

 

[asdf1000]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

Regarding measurements, recently I started doing TIM measurements for DACs too and also in this case, distortion on S2D is lower with DSD512 inputs than with PCM.

 

Wow thanks for the detailed reply!

 

6 hours ago, Miska said:

With DSD512 input due to higher data rate you can start seeing the USB packet ticking at 8 and multiples (16 kHz, 32 kHz, etc) at -140 dB level. That packet ticking part is exactly same for 768k PCM input, but the IMD hump is back

 

With your new measurements, does DSD256 hit a sweet spot better than DSD512? Maybe lower USB ticking at DSD256 with still no distortion humps?

 

Or do you still measure best performance at DSD512 with this DAC?

 

 

[asdf1000]

@Miska the other interesting question that pops up is due to the new EC modulators that sound great:

 

Does DSD128-ASMD7EC measure better/same/worse than DSD256/DSD512 with ASDM7 , with this DAC?

 

[luisma]

I'm new to this specific topic on AS, Is there an update on the legendary firmware update with so many fixes that was teased by John W quite a while back? Or is it confirmed that won't be an option? 

[left channel]

On 7/10/2019 at 3:27 AM, luisma said:

I'm new to this specific topic on AS, Is there an update on the legendary firmware update with so many fixes that was teased by John W quite a while back? Or is it confirmed that won't be an option? 

 

We've no confirmation either way. After making that promise on pinkfishmedia, John stopped responding in that thread. To make things even more confusing, he stated there that he was no longer associated with Pro-Ject, but several months later a rep with their US distributor told me John was still working with them. I haven't followed up with Pro-Ject HQ so at this point your guess is as good as mine.

[luisma]

2 hours ago, left channel said:

 

We've no confirmation either way. After making that promise on pinkfishmedia, John stopped responding in that thread. To make things even more confusing, he stated there that he was no longer associated with Pro-Ject, but several months later a rep with their US distributor told me John was still working with them. I haven't followed up with Pro-Ject HQ so at this point your guess is as good as mine.

Ha, I was at the Florida Audio Show at their  room and I asked them about John W and they said he was still under contract with Pro-ject. Which by the way the room was another company, Merrill Audio maybe? who owns Pro-ject?

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, left channel said:

We've no confirmation either way. After making that promise on pinkfishmedia, John stopped responding in that thread. To make things even more confusing, he stated there that he was no longer associated with Pro-Ject, but several months later a rep with their US distributor told me John was still working with them. I haven't followed up with Pro-Ject HQ so at this point your guess is as good as mine.

 

He didn't go through the corporate comms rep and was silenced...

 

[left channel]

4 hours ago, luisma said:

who owns Pro-ject?

 

 

Pro-Ject owns Pro-Ject, led by the original founder. Their US distributors are Sumiko, who in turn manage a wide range of dealers ranging from the McIntosh Group to Audio Advisor.

[left channel]

18 hours ago, luisma said:

who owns Pro-ject?

 

13 hours ago, left channel said:

Pro-Ject owns Pro-Ject, led by the original founder. Their US distributors are Sumiko, who in turn manage a wide range of dealers ranging from the McIntosh Group to Audio Advisor.

 

Self-correction: actually Sumiko is owned by the McIntosh Group, along with several other brands including of course McIntosh. So dealers like Audio Advisor buy from Sumiko, with Pro-Ject supplying Sumiko under an agreement with the McIntosh Group.

[luisma]

Thanks, I was completely wrong then,

[left channel]

1 hour ago, luisma said:

Thanks, I was completely wrong then,

 

Not wrong on the important point: John may still be under contract to Pro-Ject. Not sure if that makes it more or less likely we'll see updates and upgrades though.

[Raimund Heubel]

Hallo,

 

I have worked my way through the meanwhile 44 off long pages of this thread but I cannot recall having read yet about listening experiences of users with the battery powered Pro-Ject 'Accu Box S2 USB'. I do not only like the fact it is supposed to provide clean power but it also comes in the same small box design and size as the 'Pre Box S2 Digital' which would perfectly fit my current desktop set-up - Mac mini late 2018, PureMusic 3.09c, iTunes 12.9.5 plus powered speakers Abacus 'C-Box 2'.

I am aware and perfectly understand how important clean power provided to Digital devices is but nobody in this thread has yet shared specific feedback of how much (or less) the 'Accu Box S2 USB' helps to enhance the already praised sound quality of the 'Pre Box S2 Digital'? Is there any feedback available?

[arcman]

I have one of the very first S2 units. It's one of the units that I cannot upgrade the firmware anymore (at least with current installer on Pro-Ject site).I wonder if there is any significant benefit purchasing a new unit that works with current upgrade installers. My unit does not have the "clicking " issue or reverse channels. 

[Raimund Heubel]

I thought the clicking noise and the reverse channel were fixed in the 2.12 fw release but not the MQA drop outs entirely. I am not (yet) a great fan of MQA but of course will try it out as soon as the new unit I have on order right now will have arrived hopefully later this week.

[left channel]

3 hours ago, arcman said:

I have one of the very first S2 units. It's one of the units that I cannot upgrade the firmware anymore (at least with current installer on Pro-Ject site).I wonder if there is any significant benefit purchasing a new unit that works with current upgrade installers. My unit does not have the "clicking " issue or reverse channels. 

 

What is your firmware version?  (Press the Menu button, then press an arrow button twice.)

[left channel]

On 8/18/2019 at 5:05 AM, Raimund Heubel said:

Hallo,

 

I have worked my way through the meanwhile 44 off long pages of this thread but I cannot recall having read yet about listening experiences of users with the battery powered Pro-Ject 'Accu Box S2 USB'. I do not only like the fact it is supposed to provide clean power but it also comes in the same small box design and size as the 'Pre Box S2 Digital' which would perfectly fit my current desktop set-up - Mac mini late 2018, PureMusic 3.09c, iTunes 12.9.5 plus powered speakers Abacus 'C-Box 2'.

I am aware and perfectly understand how important clean power provided to Digital devices is but nobody in this thread has yet shared specific feedback of how much (or less) the 'Accu Box S2 USB' helps to enhance the already praised sound quality of the 'Pre Box S2 Digital'? Is there any feedback available?

 

That new product was developed by or under the guidance of the designer of the S2D, who in the previous year urged us to use battery or linear PSUs in the meantime. Our results with third-party solutions should be able to tell you something about what an Accu Box might do for you. But our results have varied widely, due to differences in each user's local power, connections, and of course ears. Personally I hear little to no difference. I've seen some discussion of this product in the S2D thread on head-fi, though no specific reviews yet. But when we do see reports here or there, I expect the same range of results.

[Raimund Heubel]

Thanks for your assessment of the "Accu Box S2 USB" power supply and the link to the neighbour forum which provided an interesting read. I cannot wait to get my hands on these two little devices and give them a critical listen myself.

I agree there are much cheaper 3rd party battery power solutions, still I am in favor of the common design language between the "Pre Box S2D" and the "Accu Box S2 USB" despite the higher price point of the later compared to these 3rd party PSUs. Nevertheless I regard both devices as rather cheap compared to prices you usually pay for similar equipment from other makes.

[Raimund Heubel]

I have just received the Pro-Ject "Pre-Box S2 Digital" as well as the Pro-Ject "Accu Box S2 USB" and have installed them in my home office, here are my first impressions.

What can I say? So far I am quite happy with the sound quality especially considering the rather low price point of the two units. The battery powered PSU much improved the sound with clearer voices, more precise mids and bass, there is no turning back. The comparison is easily possible by switching the "Accu Box S2 USB" PSU off and on by using the button on the left.

In the near field - I am sitting about 1 m away from the "Abacus C-Box 2" Active Speakers - the "Pre Box S2 Digital" delivers a very detailed sound image, the music easily separates from the speakers and creates a 3D sound stage more wide than deep.

There is a bit of tendency to harsh, more digital synthetic than analog organic sounding highs probably owed to the fact that the DAC and the PSU are new and require some more hours of playback time to smoothen out. The bass is more on the light side and definitely takes advantage of the battery powered PSU to grow its presence and fundament.

The strength of the system definitely is its great performance-to-price ratio which - I guess - will not be beaten easily.

[arcman]

On 8/19/2019 at 10:10 AM, left channel said:

 

What is your firmware version?  (Press the Menu button, then press an arrow button twice.)

v 2.12

[left channel]

1 hour ago, arcman said:

v 2.12

 

That is the current version on the Pro-Ject website, and as far as I know that is the latest version. We've been waiting a long time for a promised free update and optional paid upgrade, but I've seen no news about those. I've also seen no announcement of a new version of the product with different firmware updater. Where did you see that information?