Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, TomETS said:

"You can always let the player decode MQA for you. That way you get a better result by configuring S2D properly and letting prior stages do MQA decoding." 

-Have not seen any setting for this option in Windows.

 

If you are playing Tidal Masters and DAC says it is 88.2k or 96k then you have software decoding it for you.

 

Remember to enable "distortion compensation" in S2D and select a nice filter instead of default settings for proper performance.

 

I'm mostly using Roon to play Tidal and in that case Roon decodes MQA. But also the Tidal Windows/Mac application can do the same. In Tidal application on Windows, remember to select Exclusive Mode.

 

[TomETS]

Still no luck with this setup:

 

Windows 10

Tidal Hifi Subscription: Yes, Active: Yes

Tidal Desktop: Yes

Tidal desktop setting at "Streaming Audio Quality Master"

USB: Yes

16/44.1: Transmitted, no MQA light

24/192:Transmitted, no MQA light

32/384: Transmitted, no MQA lght

Set Windows properties for S2 to default which resulted in it selecting 24/192.  Everything is scaled to 24/192 including non-master recordings.

Windows volume: Full

MQA/Master song selected: Yes

Latest firmware: 2.12

DAC never indicated 88.2k or 96k

Distortion Compensation enabled

Minimum phase slow filter selected

Windows Exclusive Mode selected

 

I can not tell if the Tidal application is decoding MQA before sending it to the DAC.  My understanding is the software decoding of MQA is in effect for some Tidal versions, such as in Android.  

 

I've done some searching and can't seem to find much on this subject, not sure why.

[creativepart]

When I had one of those dacs the MQA "light" would light up and and it would show the file's resolution on the Dac's screen. You might have some windows setting that is overriding the throughput to the DAC. If I read your post correctly you say:

Quote

Set Windows properties for S2 to default which resulted in it selecting 24/192.  Everything is scaled to 24/192 including non-master recordings.

That right there sounds like it is upsampling all of your files and doesn't seem appropriate for MQA throughput.

 

I use a Mac, so I don't know what the Win settings might be.

[left channel]

@TomETS try downloading some free MQA files from the 2L Test Bench to assure yourself the S2D is working. As for Tidal, you've probably done this but I'm not certain: next to "Sound Output" click "(More settings)" and in there turn on Exclusive Mode, Force Volume, and Passthrough MQA. 

[TomETS]

Windows setup Solved:

 

Found another menu with the settings I needed.

 

Next to  Streaming/Sound Output there is a grayed (More Settings) 

 

In More Settings:

 

Use Exclusive Mode : On

Force Volume: On

Pass through MQA (disable software decoding): On (reading up on MQA it seened to describe software and hardware decoding together as the best, but right now I am happy to have decoding come out with the MQA light on and indicating 384K)  Will play later)

 

Thanks for everyone's help.

 

 

 

 

 

[Miska]

25 minutes ago, TomETS said:

Pass through MQA (disable software decoding): On (reading up on MQA it seened to describe software and hardware decoding together as the best, but right now I am happy to have decoding come out with the MQA light on and indicating 384K)  Will play later)

 

You'll get better quality by using MQA software decoding and using for example sharp filter setting in the DAC. Forget the stupid MQA lights (indicating worst possible quality).

 

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

You'll get better quality by using MQA software decoding and using for example sharp filter setting in the DAC. Forget the stupid MQA lights (indicating worst possible quality).

 

 

With "passthrough" disabled the software decoding produces a purple/pink light and "MQB" on the display. In that mode filters remain disabled per MQA licensing requirements.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, left channel said:

With "passthrough" disabled the software decoding produces a purple/pink light and "MQB" on the display. In that mode filters remain disabled per MQA licensing requirements.

 

No, the way I play MQA, DAC doesn't have any idea that there has ever been any MQA in first place...

 

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

No, the way I play MQA, DAC doesn't have any idea that there has ever been any MQA in first place...

 

 

Interesting. How do you do that? With your own app?

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, left channel said:

Interesting. How do you do that? With your own app?

 

Roon -> HQPlayer -> DAC. Or alternatively Tidal application -> HQPlayer -> DAC. Or A+ -> HQPlayer -> DAC.

 

If the DAC has hunch of MQA, you are screwed...

 

Usually I have something like DSD256 or DSD512 output after MQA decoding.

 

[left channel]

3 minutes ago, Miska said:

If the DAC has hunch of MQA, you are screwed...

 

So true, especially if it's the S2D and a bad MQA stream. With the Qobuz Windows app I've experienced dropouts and other issues on an MQA album ...which should not be there unless they've developed the app to handle it properly.  HQPlayer to the rescue!

[Display]

10 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Roon -> HQPlayer -> DAC. Or alternatively Tidal application -> HQPlayer -> DAC. Or A+ -> HQPlayer -> DAC.

 

If the DAC has hunch of MQA, you are screwed...

 

Usually I have something like DSD256 or DSD512 output after MQA decoding.

 

HQPlayer... ???    Is it fair to promote here your expensive app, which probably does almost nothing...

TomETS, look at this please: http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf
So - caution is highly recommended when listening to HighRes promoters...
 

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, Display said:

HQPlayer... ???    Is it fair to promote here your expensive app

 

He was asked a question and simply answered the question he was asked..

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Display said:

TomETS, look at this please: http://drewdaniels.com/audible.pdf
So - caution is highly recommended when listening to HighRes promoters...

 

That is funny piece of junk, but has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

And I'm not promoting MQA, quite the contrary.

 

Quote

HQPlayer... ???    Is it fair to promote here your expensive app, which probably does almost nothing...

 

"Expensive" is quite subjective and relative term. I would claim it is much cheaper than most audio components people on this forum buy.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "probably does almost nothing", but maybe you can open up a bit which of the listed features it doesn't do?

 

[TomETS]

I would advise all to enjoy the hobby and the music.  Participation in audio extremist views drives people away from the hobby, keeps prices high, and limits development because of a general lack of funding.  Development is still required because even the best recording and playback equipment only hint at sounding like a "real" recreation of a live event.  I look forward to the "real sounding recreation day" as I participate in the hobby.  (The audio singularity?)  In the mean time I am willing to listen to, but not be beat down by, all opinions and suggestions.  The fighting is why I gave up on forums many years ago.  I have better things to do with my time.

 

In this case I would like to thank the people who helped me get the S2 fully functioning.

 

[Taz777]

21 hours ago, Miska said:

 

You'll get better quality by using MQA software decoding and using for example sharp filter setting in the DAC. Forget the stupid MQA lights (indicating worst possible quality).

 

 

Hi Miska, could you elaborate on what you mean by a 'sharp filter setting in the DAC' please? On my Topping D50 DACs I have seven filters that could use (after the Tidal app does the first unfold and sends a 88.2/96kHz bitstream to the SAC):

 

1. Apodising fast roll-off filter

2. Minimum phase slow roll-off filter

3. Minimum phase fast roll-off filter

4. Linear phase slow roll-off filter

5. Linear phase fast roll-off filter

6. Brick wall filter

7. Corrected minimum phase fast roll-off filter

 

Which of those would be classed as 'sharp'? Apologies for the off-topic question, but I guess the S2D would also have a similar filters list. I've been listening with filter 5 for months but have recently started using filter 7 which does sounds rather beautiful.

[Miska]

41 minutes ago, Taz777 said:

Hi Miska, could you elaborate on what you mean by a 'sharp filter setting in the DAC' please? On my Topping D50 DACs I have seven filters that could use (after the Tidal app does the first unfold and sends a 88.2/96kHz bitstream to the SAC):

 

1. Apodising fast roll-off filter

2. Minimum phase slow roll-off filter

3. Minimum phase fast roll-off filter

4. Linear phase slow roll-off filter

5. Linear phase fast roll-off filter

6. Brick wall filter

7. Corrected minimum phase fast roll-off filter

 

Which of those would be classed as 'sharp'? Apologies for the off-topic question, but I guess the S2D would also have a similar filters list. I've been listening with filter 5 for months but have recently started using filter 7 which does sounds rather beautiful.

 

Generally, "fast", "sharp" and "long" are pretty much the same thing. What I meant originally was 5. If you'd like something "MQA'ish", then the number 2 on your list is closest. However, I'd recommend to try out 1 and 5 too.

 

But you don't go much off with any of those. The choice depends largely on what aspects of sound you are most sensitive to, and what kind of music you are listening. For multi-track studio mix productions of rock/pop/etc, minimum phase is usually quite good. For something recorded with few microphones in a real acoustic space like classical orchestra, then linear phase filters are likely better. But this is not any kind of rule, but just more like rough guidance what is likely going to work well.

 

[fgribas]

@Miska is it possible to make sinc-M output the same rate as input? 

 

When I use a Dragonfly DAC (max 96 kHz) playing 96 ou 88 content, it actually downsamples to 44 or 88.

[fgribas]

19 hours ago, fgribas said:

@Miska is it possible to make sinc-M output the same rate as input? 

 

When I use a Dragonfly DAC (max 96 kHz) playing 96 ou 88 content, it actually downsamples to 44 or 88.

 

ooops, posted on the wrong topic, sorry 🤦‍♂️

 

[seaharp1]

Hi Everyone,

 

I just got my (new?) SD2 from Sumiko authorized warranty shop.They kept kept the original. The original one had the micro usb female connector snap off.

This one came with 2.1 firmware which their site says is the latest one.

 

Are there any other firmwares available?

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, seaharp1 said:

Hi Everyone,

 

I just got my (new?) SD2 from Sumiko authorized warranty shop.They kept kept the original. The original one had the micro usb female connector snap off.

This one came with 2.1 firmware which their site says is the latest one.

 

Are there any other firmwares available?

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

 

 

2.12 is the latest.  I *think* if I remember what I did yesterday correctly, you have to install the Windows or Mac driver first to update the firmware, but I could have that reversed.   

 

https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/pre-box-s2-digital/

[Jud]

Just wanted to mention how very much I'm liking this little DAC!

 

Am taking care with any changes that require plugging or unplugging rear panel connections, having read the Amazon reviews.

[Jud]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:58 PM, Jud said:

Just wanted to mention how very much I'm liking this little DAC!

 

So I replaced the Mapleshade Clearlink Plus USB cable with a Ghent Audio JSSG360 USB cable at less than 1/3 the price.  (Cable $35, +$15 for express shipping from China, which I considered well worth it.)

 

I used to like this DAC. Now it's an absolute motherf**ker.  😎

[TomETS]

What induced you to change and why do you think it made a difference?

[Jud]

I liked the Clearlink Plus better than anything else I heard for several years, including Audioquest's Carbon and Coffee (I changed from the Coffee to the Mapleshade).  Then a friend made a cable for me in the "JSSG360" configuration (if you haven't seen this you can search the forum, but briefly it involves star quad double shielded cable) out of a wire that cost a couple of bucks.  I liked it a lot better than the Mapleshade.  However, it was built "like a tank," so to speak, and though beautifully made was therefore pretty heavy, and I was concerned about the amount of torque that might put on the USB connection.  So having heard about Ghent Audio and JSSG360 DC power cables they made, I took a look and found they made a USB cable in JSSG360 configuration.  The sound was as good as if not a touch better than the cable my friend had made, and was lighter.  Happiness.

 

My prior DAC was the iFI micro-iDSD.  In my use case (occasional streaming - always connected to power via USB, but not always on because the DAC contains a battery and the firmware turns off power when fully charged), the iFi DAC would lose the network connection irritatingly often, so the Pro-Ject was the solution.  The iFi uses a different input connection than most other USB DACs - the cable must be terminated with a female A connector rather than the usual male B connector.  Though I ordered the DAC and cable at the same time, I was able to order the DAC from Amazon, so it came almost immediately, while Ghent makes cables to order and ships from China, and it thus required about 2 1/2 weeks to arrive.  In the interim, I used the best cable I had available with a male USB B connector, another Clearlink Plus.

 

And that's how I came to listen to the Pro-Ject first with the Clearlink Plus for a couple of weeks, then yesterday with the Ghent cable.

 

Why do I think it made a difference?

 

First, since this is subjective listening, I always have to caution that this could all be in my head, and there could in fact be no difference.    If there's any reality at all to what I've heard, I can only speculate.  The Mapleshade has virtually no shielding, while the star quad double shielded configuration of the JSSG360 provides a lot of it.  Perhaps RFI or some other radiated noise from nearby (I have a Wi-Fi router next to my audio equipment) was making things just very slightly noisier with the Clearlink?  That's all I have on the speculation front.