Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[exdmd]

21 minutes ago, GromitInWA said:

I wasn't expecting much from a vendor's "review" of this product, but it does actually look like they've used it. https://www.audioadvice.com/content/2018/02/22/pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital-review

 

Audioadvice sells it you really trust their review?

[fgribas]

2 hours ago, exdmd said:

 

Torq over at SBAF considers the headphone amp built in to the Pre Box S2 to be not so good:

 

 

I happen to have both a Magni 3 and Vali 2 and would be glad to compare a review sample of the Pre Box S2 using both amps.  No interest in buying one though.

 

Yeah, I just read that on SBAF. For me, Magni 3 changes the tonal balance (so not a neutral amp) and messes with sound stage and instrument positioning.

 

Some might like the altered tonal balance, depending on the headphone used and personal preference. In fact I tested S2 alone and S2 + Magni 3 + Loki with a Philips Fidelio L2 I have around, and I preferred S2 + Schiit stack than S2 alone because the frequency response of the Fidelio is so messed up. And a decent and balanced frequency response is more important than sound stage.

 

But I'm an IEM guy. With my Triple Fi 10 (with Null Audio Arete MK II cable), the tonal balance, correct sound stage and all the details are there with the S2 alone.

 

But this is just my subjective findings. As it also seems to be Torq's findings (I see only measurements of the frequency response using different filters there).

 

Or maybe it's just that my RCA cables are a piece of Schiit. They are Schiit Pyst, a low cost cable indeed...

[GromitInWA]

5 hours ago, exdmd said:

 

Audioadvice sells it you really trust their review?

My point was that I expected a puff piece that was just a rehash of the manufacturer’s website. But reading the review it does seem as though they used it. Obviously it is a positive review. They do suggest that if you have harder to drive headphones you look elsewhere (and of course they can help you with that particular problem...)

[trl]

It's a ES9602Q small headphone amplifier chip that can be used for monitoring and low-volume listening, especially for high sensitivity cans. Most likely an external headamp might help if using planars or high impedance headphones.

[left channel]

The Mac updater has been removed from the Pro-Ject website. Apparently it was not thoroughly tested, as some users could not get it to see their units. I still have that updater and the other files in a download folder. If you'd like to try it just PM me, no email or login required.

 

Also, for the record, I like what my Magni 2U does to the sound signature when I feed it with this DAC. And not just because the Magni is much more powerful.

 

 

[fgribas]

On 3/2/2018 at 12:17 PM, left channel said:

Also, for the record, I like what my Magni 2U does to the sound signature when I feed it with this DAC. And not just because the Magni is much more powerful.

 

 

 

@left channel almost everyone seems to love Magni 2U and specially Magni 3. I've read tons of posts on the forums around and decided to give it a try. It's a  matter of personal preference and matching your audio chain. For me, the  ES9602Q amp on S2 is a better match for my IEMs. But when using my semi-open Fidelio heaphones, I prefer Magni 3 amping. What's your headphone?

 

Oh, but one thing is for sure: the  ES9602Q of the S2 lacks some power. Even with my IEM ( 32ohm impedance and 117 dB/mW sensitivity) sometimes I reach -8 dB on the S2 (older and quiet recordings most)

[left channel]

5 minutes ago, fgribas said:

What's your headphone?

 

On the Magni 2U: Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro 250 Ω.
On the Pre Box S2 Digital: Sony MDR-Z7 (70 Ω) to warm up the sound and reduce listening fatigue.

[left channel]

The Mac updater has been re-posted to the Pro-Ject website, with this explanation: "Please note, that Pre Box S2 Digital has to run firmware version 2.10 for the MacOS DFU to find the unit!"

 

This is the sort of error message the software should have returned by itself...without the comma and exclamation point. Especially the exclamation point, which indicates impatience with customers. Because after all, we are the problem. Especially all the customers who tried to help the developer out by installing the 2.11 beta, thank you very much.

 

To find your firmware version, do this on the unit or the remote: press the Menu button, and then press twice on the down arrow button.

[Aboulfad]

I was excited by the prospects of this unit, until I started reading the 30 pages in this thread... sounds very much like a beta product, plagued with support, design, sourcing, manufacturing issues. Darn, onto the next mini DAC :-( Thanks to the OP for keeping us informed.

[exdmd]

Did you read Torq's review on SBAF? Only two pages and more positive. Buy one though Amazon and send it back if you do not like.

[GromitInWA]

33 minutes ago, Aboulfad said:

I was excited by the prospects of this unit, until I started reading the 30 pages in this thread... sounds very much like a beta product, plagued with support, design, sourcing, manufacturing issues. Darn, onto the next mini DAC :-( Thanks to the OP for keeping us informed.

You're overstating the issues in my opinion. As @exdmd says, get one through Amazon or Music Direct (who offer a 60-day return period), try it and if you don't like it, return it. I'm not a Pro-Ject apologist, and their support is laughable. However, these types of devices involve firmware, software and many variables, so it is not surprising that there are issues.

[Aboulfad]

@exdmd, @GromitInWA, thanks for the links and suggestions. yes I did read the other discussions and reviews. As end product consumers, we are almost being brain washed to accepting the fact that having bugs in software/firmware is an acceptable practice.

 

I may have been harsh with my above comments but one single fact for me ruled it out, is the non serious comical approach of the S2 designer regarding MacOS support at pinkfish having to run upstairs to marketing to test Mac related issues... I exclusively use MacOS for my audio needs and MacOS support is an important criteria for my DAC to be.

 

As for trialing it, unfortunately I am in Canada and can’t order most stuff from amazon.com or direct music and the unit  is not even available until June 2018 here through their Gentec distributor. 

 

[asdf1000]

It's a great DAC. They took the long and scenic route to get to the current stage (bumps along the way) but there's not many major issues left. And they confirmed they are working on these last minor issues.

 

Switch to linear phase + fast rolloff and enable distortion compensation (as per Miska's advice long ago) after you update the latest firmware updates and you shouldn't see any major issues in use...

 

Buy with confidence I say! Feed it with a linear PSU and you'll be surprised and pleased I think.

[Aboulfad]

@Em2016, thanks for your opinion. Maybe I left out some other concerns, that may not have been discussed in this thread, how suitable is this mini DAC to be used with an integrated amp driving speakers and not headphones or desktop speakers?

 

I am curious to experiment and with this low entry point, I may give it a try, however not available to purchase yet to us Canucks... I’ve found it though an EU site Meze Audio that ships worldwide. And a good linear PSU is roughly the same cost as the S2...

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, Aboulfad said:

@Em2016, thanks for your opinion. Maybe I left out some other concerns, that may not have been discussed in this thread, how suitable is this mini DAC to be used with an integrated amp driving speakers and not headphones or desktop speakers?

 

I've measured it from the line-outs and it works very well in that respect...

[GromitInWA]

8 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I've measured it from the line-outs and it works very well in that respect...

This is how I use mine. It connects to a Rega Brio (2017) integrated amp and works well. Using it this way, you are presumably not asking too much of the analogue stage.

[Aboulfad]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I've measured it from the line-outs and it works very well in that respect...

Thanks, I could swear I read few of your technical post in this thread few hours ago but can’t locate them now and it doesn’t seem I can search in a thread using a user’s ID.

 

My goal is to connect my specially optimized Mac mini to  a mini DAC to an Unison Research S6 driving Thiel CS3.6. Putting MQA aside, I didn’t want to spend much on a DAC, at most $1k, and the S2 and Mytek liberty fit my criteria, the former being less Mac friendly according to many forum posts...

 

[left channel]

8 minutes ago, Aboulfad said:

Thanks, I could swear I read few of your technical post in this thread few hours ago but can’t locate them now and it doesn’t seem I can search in a thread using a user’s ID.

 

 

Running it through an integrated amp should be fine. The line level output is a little low for some situations (like driving active speakers or subwoofers, if they have an automatic sleep mode that may activate at low volume levels), but with an amp that should not be an issue.

 

To find search for one user's posts in one thread you can select "This Topic" and then type in their handle.

[Mark Dirac]

My S2 Digital has arrived.  But it's not working - there are driver problems and W10 settings reports "Driver is unavailable". Tidal plays at 44.1k irrespective of MQA pass-thu or not. I am confident I have the Tidal W10 program and the W10 "Playback devices" panel configured correctly. But I have no "Pro-Ject utility". And the firmware update utility from the web page refuses to run, with the missing .dll error. And there are no drivers on the website, only the firmware.

 

(Device was shipped with v2.12 and I am using a well-maintained Windows 10 PC).

 

I don't have a CD drive - do I need the CD? Is everything on the CD also on Pro-Ject's web site? Any ideas  please why the drivers have not installed from the box?

[left channel]

OK @Mark Dirac let's see if we can help. 2.12 is the current update, so don't bother running the firmware update utility. But if you need to install an update in the future, note that it is looking for the driver. You need the driver installed anyway, and you don't need a CD drive. In fact, the CD it ships with may not have the latest version.

You can download the driver from the Pro-Ject web page you visited earlier [link]. Scroll halfway down the page and you'll see some downloads. Ignore the instructions for DSD playback for now, as they are quite out of date and I can help you with that later. Next you'll see "download the latest driver" and a box to input the serial number on the bottom of your unit.

The driver should enable MQA playback and other features. It will include a control panel that lives in your Windows system tray, but the latest version makes most adjustments for you automatically.  It also includes somewhat improved MQA performance, and much improved DSD performance over the first official release. OK? Let us know if you're able to install it.

[Mark Dirac]

You're a hero, left channel. Thanks. Yes, amidst all the confusion and ambiguity, I failed to see the "enter S/N" box." Big oops.

 

So, is working now, although still some quirks:

• In W10 "Playback devices" control panel; and in Tidal settings, the DAC is called "2- Pre Box S2 Digital". I guess this is a result of me trying to install, delete, and re-install drivers. Most places else it is called "Pre Box S2 Digital", as expected. I am concerned that I have two different somethings installed.
• When playing Tidal without "Passthrough MQA" set, the DAC's display reads MQB" with a purple dot. (When I set pass through, "MQA" + blue dot shows, as expected.) What d'you reckon MQB refers to?

I note you have assisted dozens of customers, on several forums, over many months, and often with the same advice. So I have started a Google Doc to collate people's advice and discoveries. If you reckon this might become useful I can flesh if out over time and grant you edit access (pse PM me).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12H0_F_gD2GY37XKHwrM3tQZRYcm84yzIrSy1MbmkFY8/edit?usp=sharing

[Aboulfad]

@Mark Dirac, great initiative. You may wish to also include the config described by @Miska which I am still trying to find in this thread. A quick reference was made to it in this post. GL with this unit.

 

May I ask where you purchased it and your country? It’s been very challenging to find an online reseller in NA that ships to Canada.

[Mark Dirac]

Sure Aboulfad. I cannot figure out the Miska post you're referring to.

 

I bought in UK at the Bristol HiFi show from Audio-T imported by Henley Audio for £300. Lead time was 4 working days.

[dwaleke]

1 hour ago, Aboulfad said:

@Mark Dirac@Miska

 

May I ask where you purchased it and your country? It’s been very challenging to find an online reseller in NA that s

Check AudioAdvice.com.

[Aboulfad]

1 hour ago, Mark Dirac said:

Sure Aboulfad. I cannot figure out the Miska post you're referring to.

 

I bought in UK at the Bristol HiFi show from Audio-T imported by Henley Audio for £300. Lead time was 4 working days.

Miska posted details about configuration, read the post I linked  above that makes reference to it. So I guess my choice is to order from overseas if I decide to pull the trigger.

”...Switch to linear phase + fast rolloff and enable distortion compensation (as per Miska's advice long ago...”

46 minutes ago, dwaleke said:

Check AudioAdvice.com.

Sorry, don’t ship up North!