USB audio cracked... finally!

[plissken]

18 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Ah, so you haven’t asked whether your assumption (that there’s another DAC or DACs without the same problem; and what are the price comparisons?) is correct.

 

It appears to be the Oppo HA-2SE and it isn't affected by the caching in WMP because the USB on it is properly isolated from ground plane noise.

[mmerrill99]

21 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

It appears to be the Oppo HA-2SE and it isn't affected by the caching in WMP because the USB on it is properly isolated from ground plane noise.

And the measurements of the Schiit were for an SPDIF feed into it directly from computer motherboard, not from USB - talk about comparing apples & elephants?

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

And the measurements of the Schiit were for an SPDIF feed into it directly from computer motherboard, not from USB - talk about comparing apples & elephants?

 

At least you're consistent. At being wrong...

 

" So we decided to test it with the PC driving it over USB. We played the tone using Windows Media Player: "

 

What Amir measured was both SP/DIF and USB. Both poorly implemented.

 

Here is the link again. Maybe a 2nd read through for you will do the trick instead of the first sentence or two.

[mmerrill99]

Just now, plissken said:

 

At least you consistent at being wrong...

 

" So we decided to test it with the PC driving it over USB. We played the tone using Windows Media Player: "

Where  is the link for what you quoted & where are the measurements for that USB  connection because the shown measurements aren't them - I quote Amir here referring to these measurements & he doesn't say these measurements are from USB output of computer into Bifrost - he admits they are SPDIF - so try again!!

 

Quote

As to S/PDIF "causing issues" it played music. It passed the samples to the DAC. It is *always* the job of the DAC to clean up the S/PDIF clock to the best of its abilities. And in the case of any competent computer audio interface, to fully isolate from the computer noise/activity. The Bifrost does not do this.

 

[plissken]

23 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Where  is the link for what you quoted & where are the measurements for that USB  connection because the shown measurements aren't them - I quote Amir here referring to these measurements & he doesn't say these measurements are from USB output of computer into Bifrost - he admits they are SPDIF - so try again!!

 

 

 

It is obvious to me that you didn't click on the link I provided. It's right there in plain site/sight! For pete's sake. REALLY?! The less you open your mouth the less your foot will be in it mmerrill.

 

 

Here is the $79 Behringer just crushing the Bitfrost in the the same test (albeit a different fundamental). Look at the noise floor performance and then realize this isn't even the balanced out on the Behringer UMC204HD reviewed.

 

 

[plissken]

Here is the direct post to the WBF thread you are referencing. But since you seem to lack the fundamentals of being an honest discussant I'll save you the effort:

 

[mmerrill99]

27 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

It's right there in plain site/sight! For pete's sake. REALLY?!

 

Ok, so we are to believe that this measurement of Bifrost analogue outputs  being driven by SPDIF directly from computer's motherboard (& associated onboard clock) delivers pretty much the same jitter as the USB connection driven asynchronously by the Bifrost's onboard audio clocks?

 

Interesting that Stereophile's measurements of Bifrost show nothing like Amir's jitter issues!!

[plissken]

14 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Ok, so we are to believe that this measurement of Bifrost analogue outputs  being driven by SPDIF directly from computer's motherboard (& associated onboard clock) delivers pretty much the same jitter as the USB connection driven asynchronously by the Bifrost's onboard audio clocks?

 

Interesting that Stereophile's measurements of Bifrost show nothing like Amir's jitter issues!!

 

Oh. So we get your admission that I was indeed speaking of USB measurements of the Bitfrost.

 

You have a funny way of apologizing for being wrong and accusing me of posting SP/Diff measurements when I was talking about USB.

 

To answer your question. Do the USB and SP/Diff graphs look the same? Are you normally this obtuse?

 

I'll take Amir over John any day of the week.

[mmerrill99]

Well Amir's original posting of these measurements here didn't mention that the SPDIF signal was directly from a computer's motherboard - either he's being disingenuous or lacking in knowledge that a computer clock timing the embedded SPDIF clock is very relevant to any measurements of jitter!

 

So yea, you take Amir's measurements over John Atkinson who doesn't make such rookie mistakes & shows a modicum of knowledge

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said:

Well Amir's original posting of these measurements here didn't mention that the SPDIF signal was directly from a computer's motherboard - either he's being disingenuous or lacking in knowledge that a computer clock timing the embedded SPDIF clock is very relevant to any measurements of jitter!

 

So yea, you take Amir's measurements over John Atkinson who doesn't make such rookie mistakes & shows a modicum of knowledge

 

So you are normally this obtuse.

 

This is a thread about USB. I've been posting screenshots and quotes about USB.

 

Not SP/Diff.

 

And SO WHAT if the SPD/Diff was mainboard or not. The entire premise you are missing is that the DAC should have dealt with the noise by rejecting it.

 

But that is beside the point. At no time have I spoken to anything other than USB and the the noise the all the various I/O functions including buffer fill by a player application, should be rejected by the DAC. It's what it's supposed to be doing.

 

Funny how all the pundits shut up when I make a really factual point and even provide supporting evidence all all the operations that are going on on a computer that basically has a fresh load of Windows 10 on it.

 

Now I would like to see that same perfmon that I performed on a 'AO' optimized system.

[JoeWhip]

I respect Amir, but when it comes to Schiit, he really has a blind spot. I don't find his finding with Schiit to be convincing at all and that it is completely out of line with my experience with their products. 

[plissken]

1 minute ago, JoeWhip said:

I respect Amir, but when it comes to Schiit, he really has a blind spot. I don't find his finding with Schiit to be convincing at all and that it is completely out of line with my experience with their products. 

 

Well if you listen to mmerrill and his quoting John Atkinson, well they've both(John and Amir) measured Schitt products and found problems. Don't know if they are audible.

 

 

[JoeWhip]

They aren't.

[rando]

@PeterSt, USB 2 ports are fairly rare on new computers.  Could you lightly touch on the extent to which your Lush cable's re-orchestration of that standard was designed to function inside the USB 3 protocol?  What I've failed to understand is the environment you intended this cable to flourish in.

 

Also, 7 months?  But,but, but.... but that's well after the holiday season.  Convincing people to listen to a Lush during Christmas in July is a much harder sale.  I'm frankly at odd ends trying to forget this exists for the next number of months and that I'm missing out on something which will make it redundant.  

[PeterSt]

Just now, rando said:

Also, 7 months?

 

Ehm, what are you talking about now ? I don't recognize 7 months anywhere ?

I guess I just don't understand the hint or language ...

[rando]

On 7/17/2017 at 2:48 AM, PeterSt said:

Secret : in 7 months of time I will have a new interface with very fresh ideas. And that one can be predicted. It is a study project for our Paul (who managed to study embedded engineering without me pushing him) and if I'm right such a project would be for graduated and beyond. He's in his 2nd year soon.

 

I spent the intervening time scolding myself for not having queued this quote to start with.  Out of this entire long thread your mention of a defined waiting period for a new interface caught my eye.  

 

Disregarding a focus on other manufacturers DAC's.  Is the Lush expected to be plugged into a USB 3 port?  From an end user standpoint this could be an important question to ask the manufacturer.  

[PeterSt]

Just now, rando said:

I spent the intervening time scolding myself for not having queued this quote to start with.

 

Arrgghh, that one. Sorry, I just did not get it.

Well, because it is all new, it is supposed to work. So no guarantee to begin with but usually when I set my mind to something, it should be feasible to begin with and next work out as intended.

What's also in order is some lag for production. So the (throughput) time set for it is for the proof of concept, though including a working prototype. This also must sound better (read : "be" better). So Christmas should be nice but it could be too soon. It would be exciting though.

 

[rando]

37 minutes ago, rando said:

Convincing people to listen to a Lush during Christmas in July is a much harder sale

Take all the time you want to answer.  Do let me point out this drinking joke was the only reason for the existence of my second thought.  It was meant to engage your sense of humor, not a professional response.  Asking after a work in progress you couldn't be expected to discuss is bad form.

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, rando said:

Is the Lush expected to be plugged into a USB 3 port?  From an end user standpoint this could be an important question to ask the manufacturer. 

 

Mwah ... not easy to answer. I tend to say yes because "we" all do, and outside of any cable, USB3 just sounds better. Otoh, this is in the more "protected" environment of XXHighEnd (and for most with the Phasure NOS1a DAC).

Notice that XXHighEnd is AO^2 although this is hardly advertised. It just is. So this takes into account about all what there is, and since the settings influence the DAC's sound easily, the interface is USB, and the OSes wildly differ for SQ, it should be the USB port where the differences start.

This is hard to prove and all we have really is the general acceptance that USB3 sounds better. Btw, this was only maybe 2 monts ago re-tested among a few (I could listen to USB2 for a few minutes only before I was too bored to continue with it).

 

The short answer : Yes, I think USB3 will be the better one, and besides the Lush was developed using that (and I personally still do).

 

Good for an answer ?

Peter

[rando]

Perfect.  Seeing as there was a lull in relevant content.  I thought it would be a good time to settle my one unanswered question.  Best of luck with development on your new interface.

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, rando said:

Seeing as there was a lull in relevant content.

 

Yes, thank you. 

[rickca]

25 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Notice that XXHighEnd is AO^2 although this is hardly advertised. It just is.

Are you saying that XXHighEnd includes Audiophile Optimizer?  What does AO^2 mean?

[PeterSt]

18 minutes ago, rickca said:

What does AO^2 mean?

 

AO to the power of 2.

 

So yes, XXHighEnd strips down the OS to the very maximum, with the special features of :

- boot into it (Minimized OS), which also allows boot back into Normal OS;

- It being explicitly optimized for each OS around. This includes the W10 OSes Build 10074, 10565 (both obsolete but still run), 10240, 10586.0 and 14393.0.

 

Maybe you saw ACG (Anthony) write about 30W or so of power consumption for his 40 core hypertheaded Xeon processor and linear PSU based PC (all built into  the PC itself which is less than 3" of height). So think about this and how it can be possible.

 

XXHighEnd applies these jokes for 10 years now, but us gang stay a bit quiet ... 

 

[PeterSt]

If I'm still allowed (and otherwise please delete) ... I could also say that we provide a hdd (or ssd) that contains 5 OSes pre-installed, all capable of that optimization via XXHighEnd (which is also pre-installed) and which allows the install of a new OS by means of download which only comprises of a copy-file and you're up and running. Of course this will only be about a new OS which sounds better than the previous (determined by my ears).

 

I didn't tell that each OS is meant to run headless (the remote allowing to boot into each of them), and besides that, boots from RAM with no single disk/ssd present anywhere. But you may recall that Mani spent a little thread about this. It is about the combination of all though.

10 years of explicit development is quite a bit. And if we don't voice, well, we just don't, 

[Jud]

I have occasionally mentioned that XXHighEnd’s interface can remind one of an airliner cockpit.  There are controls (with extensive context-sensitive help that itself must have taken @PeterSt forever to write) for everything you knew and didn’t know was controllable in the OS, hardware, and XXHighEnd itself.  Frankly, when Peter calls it AO squared, he gives himself far too little credit.  For Windows there is nothing to match it.