Stradivarius vs modern violins again

[davide256]

Just now, davide256 said:

I seem to recall something about the wood for Stradivarius being reclaimed wood from canals, where the water content and the fungus growth caused some unusual characteristics in the salvaged wood.  This article also talks about chemically treating the wood...gee, sounds suspiciously like deck wood treatment ...

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/science/stradivari-violin-wood.html?_r=0

 

 

 

[monteverdi]

String instruments made from composites have  the advantage of being not sensitive to humidity (and less to temperature so constant retuning during a performance is not necessary. The only part which is still wood is the bridge. 

I think it is difficult to overcome the bias of the audience that you pay a lot for your ticket and then someone plays a "plastic" violin.

[monteverdi]

I was reading the next composite material is flax (linen). At least there are some guitars made form it https://www.blackbirdguitar.com

[rickca]

23 minutes ago, monteverdi said:

I was reading the next composite material is flax (linen).

Focal makes extensive use of flax in their speaker drivers.

https://www.focal.com/en/flax-sandwich-cone

[gmgraves]

55 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Can't help noticing the similarities between professional musicians and audiophiles.

 

I thought the researcher said that in terms of physics, they found no difference between the two. 

 

 

 

The difference, of course, is that the "sound" of the violin isn't the only criterion that the musician uses to choose his/her instrument. It's the way the instrument responds to the player's touch that is just as important to the musician a sit the instrument's sound. There is nothing akin to that (as far as I know) in the audiophile's world.

[monteverdi]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

Focal makes extensive use of flax in their speaker drivers.

https://www.focal.com/en/flax-sandwich-cone

I made a small speaker box from a flax sandwich. Has much better damping than carbon fiber and is cheaper too.

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, gmgraves said:

 

The difference, of course, is that the "sound" of the violin isn't the only criterion that the musician uses to choose his/her instrument. It's the way the instrument responds to the player's touch that is just as important to the musician a sit the instrument's sound. There is nothing akin to that (as far as I know) in the audiophile's world.

Yes absolutely. I recently sat in on a comparison of bows. I closed my eyes to listen in a "blinded" fashion. The musicians played a few notes and decided much about how the strings resonated from a tactile (and of course also audible) perspective.

 

FWIW there is a general dismissal of carbon fiber bows and instruments, but there are good "plastic" bows that are particularly favored for outdoor concerts -- the bow was considered pretty good for the $1-2K range, I didn't ask what type of "plastic" these bows are made of ... I was happy to be a close observer  (most of these bows were $60K - $100+K)

[esldude]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

 

The difference, of course, is that the "sound" of the violin isn't the only criterion that the musician uses to choose his/her instrument. It's the way the instrument responds to the player's touch that is just as important to the musician a sit the instrument's sound. There is nothing akin to that (as far as I know) in the audiophile's world.

Except an earlier test by these people asked for evaluation of how the instruments played, how it responded to their touch.  Again, newer was judged either better or equal.  One of the Strads was clearly judged in last place by nearly all participants. 

 

These excuses made really are nearly exactly like audiophiles say about similar testing.  It is the same psychological phenomena in evidence. 

 

Here is one more example of that in this column that accompanied the recent publication of results.

 

https://www.nature.com/news/science-can-tell-us-only-so-much-about-stradivarius-violins-1.21954

 

It doesn't hurt the value to me of the historical instruments which were/are the yardstick of measurement.  What is wrong with it if not really true vs quality new instruments is that aspiring musicians think they are handicapped by needing $1 million plus violins when some rather affordable ones are as good, nearly as good or better.  It should be big news when a $5k violin simply makes it difficult to distinguish by experts even if by some measure it isn't quite the equivalent. 

 

 

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, esldude said:

 

https://www.nature.com/news/science-can-tell-us-only-so-much-about-stradivarius-violins-1.21954

 

It doesn't hurt the value to me of the historical instruments which were/are the yardstick of measurement.  What is wrong with it if not really true vs quality new instruments is that aspiring musicians think they are handicapped by needing $1 million plus violins when some rather affordable ones are as good, nearly as good or better.  It should be big news when a $5k violin simply makes it difficult to distinguish by experts even if by some measure it isn't quite the equivalent. 

 

 

 

Ha ha, I don't think you need to worry about aspiring musicians access to Strads

 

There is a great deal of competition in the $3-5K range. As the price gets higher, there is an expectation that several instruments will be compared over a week or two.

 

The Nature articles discusses, as is common sense, that ultimately the instrument is not "blind" to the musician, and musicians get to know their specific instruments rather well. It should be noted that among Strad, there are considerable individual differences and the instruments are named. At the point where one typically gets access to one of these instruments, the performer would be already considered rather expert and able to perform well on a range of instruments. $5k not out of the question, but I know accomplished professional performers who play with $10-20K violins ... or $50-100K ... or $100-200K ... like everything.

 

In the lower end, expect considerable variability among (at least wooden) instruments and highly selected samples can be quite good ... probably like clock oscillators

[ecwl]

Since it's not blinded, I thought the Strad sounded warmer but the non-Strad sounded slightly clearer, maybe slightly too bright but with a bit more detail? I also couldn't tell the two instruments apart during the podcast when the violin was playing with the orchestra. It was easier to tell from the individual NPR clips.

 

Scientifically speaking, if they are measuring "projection", they should be able to just measure how loud the instrument is near the violin and at the audience position. Not sure why that wasn't done simultaneously with the blind testing.

 

With all that said, this forum is great. It makes me question whether I should continue to spend money upgrading my stereo. Maybe I should buy a carbon fibre violin and then take violin lessons so that I can play. On the other hand, maybe I should get a cheap violin first and take lessons...

 

[gzubeck]

I would really like to hear what a complete orchestra would sound like with carbon fiber instruments. I can really see the allure of these carbon instruments...massively cheaper, no humidity/temperature adjustments needed, and the cost if lost, stolen or damaged is off the charts cheap for a professional musician. I think also we have to get used to the different presentation of these new carbon fiber instruments....they are definitely cleaner in presentation and the player is going to have to work hard to figure out how to maximize its strengths...

[Solstice380]

I've worked with carbon fiber composites for a few years now.  If you don't make them right they will eventually, on their own, warp.  

[gmgraves]

7 hours ago, ecwl said:

Since it's not blinded, I thought the Strad sounded warmer but the non-Strad sounded slightly clearer, maybe slightly too bright but with a bit more detail? I also couldn't tell the two instruments apart during the podcast when the violin was playing with the orchestra. It was easier to tell from the individual NPR clips.

 

Scientifically speaking, if they are measuring "projection", they should be able to just measure how loud the instrument is near the violin and at the audience position. Not sure why that wasn't done simultaneously with the blind testing.

 

With all that said, this forum is great. It makes me question whether I should continue to spend money upgrading my stereo. Maybe I should buy a carbon fibre violin and then take violin lessons so that I can play. On the other hand, maybe I should get a cheap violin first and take lessons...

 

 

That's the paradox here, isn't it? To wit; cheap violins don't "handle" very well. They are difficult to finger, requiring undue finger pressure and they do not respond to the bow very well. This makes it so difficult and unpleasant to try to play that often students who think that they would like to learn the violin get discouraged and give up. How do I know this? Because I was one of those students. When I decided to take up the violin, my elementary school provided one. I didn't know that there would be any difference between how various violins "handled", and not knowing any better, I assumed that they were all miserable to play. So I quit. Years later I was going with a young lady who played violin professionally in the local symphony. I told her my experiences in grammar school with a school-provided "student" violin, and she handed me her 19th Century Flemish instrument. It was a revelation! Where fingering the old student model was difficult and uncomfortable, my girlfriend's instrument responded to a very light touch. To say I was flabbergasted by this would be an understatement. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

I've worked with carbon fiber composites for a few years now.  If you don't make them right they will eventually, on their own, warp.  

 

Lets hope Luis and Clark "makes them right"!

[Solstice380]

I'm sure they are working with some good technical companies it.  Warping and voids are the biggest reason we aren't all driving around in 1500 pound cars right now.  I worked for 7 years in a big DOE/Detroit Three research consortium in light-weighting for vehicles.   We developed the Magnesium engine and some structural supports and others made the carbon composite body panels.  The yields were unacceptable.  If they can get enough money to throw away a high percentage of them then they will work out the process, eventually, to improve that.  In the mean time, they better do a lot of inspection!

[jabbr]

8 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

That's the paradox here, isn't it? To wit; cheap violins don't "handle" very well. They are difficult to finger, requiring undue finger pressure and they do not respond to the bow very well. This makes it so difficult and unpleasant to try to play that often students who think that they would like to learn the violin get discouraged and give up. ...

 

There is more variability in the intro student instruments. My daughter got very lucky with her viola which started as a new, presumably Chinese rental. We "upgraded" to a larger instrument ~$3k or so, still a presumably Chinese instrument (house brand) and offered to upgrade again but she couldn't find anything she liked until after her college tryout when we went with a (new) Matsuda. She fell in love instantly (though we tried several in the same range). For the price, the $3k instrument is terrific (and broken in!  ) and still get's use for outdoor concerts.

 

Having sat through auditions of multiple similar instruments, it takes a bit of work, but good ones can be found...

[esldude]

38 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

There is more variability in the intro student instruments. My daughter got very lucky with her viola which started as a new, presumably Chinese rental. We "upgraded" to a larger instrument ~$3k or so, still a presumably Chinese instrument (house brand) and offered to upgrade again but she couldn't find anything she liked until after her college tryout when we went with a (new) Matsuda. She fell in love instantly (though we tried several in the same range). For the price, the $3k instrument is terrific (and broken in!  ) and still get's use for outdoor concerts.

 

Having sat through auditions of multiple similar instruments, it takes a bit of work, but good ones can be found...

So the German carbon fiber instruments are in this price range.  Not that I have any idea if they are comparable to, better than or not as good as a Matsuda viola.

 

http://www.lindawest.com/mezzo_forte_carbon_fiber_viola_p/mezzoforteviola.htm

 

https://www.mezzo-forte.de/carbon-instruments-viola.html

 

Having carbon fiber bikes and bike parts probably makes the idea more palatable to me than is the case with many musicians. 

 

 

[STC]

Can you pick the Stradivarius violin from sound alone? I know this is Youtube quality but at least you can hear the difference. I pick 2.

 

 

 

[plissken]

The take away is even professional and elite musicians use bias control measures and aren't afraid of it. If they can't trust their ears only for what sounds best why would anyone else. And it seems they do :-)

 

I've yet to see a violinist or audience participant rage on about singe blinded bias control. I think any musician simply wants to sound the best they can. If they can gain their edge with a $25,000 violin vs a $250,000 violin they will do so. 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, STC said:

Can you pick the Stradivarius violin from sound alone? I know this is Youtube quality but at least you can hear the difference. I pick 2.

 

 

 

 

I picked #5 as best, but I thought #2 and #6 were also very sonorous and pleasant. The differences between all these violins were certainly not subtle, were they? Thanks for posting this, STC.

[jabbr]

I preferred #1, #3, #5 (and would have liked to hear these side by side) ... I did not care for the high end of #2 (slightly grainy) and the high end of #6 was significantly lacking.

 

I should say that the carbon fiber fiddles I've heard have sounded sonorous and resonant but I also have found the high end grainy.

[STC]

7 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I should say that the carbon fiber fiddles I've heard have sounded sonorous and resonant but I also have found the high end grainy.

 

26 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I picked #5 as best, but I thought #2 and #6 were also very sonorous and pleasant

 

One thing is certain. I don't listen as critical as you guys do. I think with different tracks or headphones, my preference would change. The saddest part is I find all 6 sounded good enough musically, including the cheap number 6. I have never judged sound in isolation. I look for the overall balance. 

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, STC said:

 

 

One thing is certain. I don't listen as critical as you guys do. I think with different tracks or headphones, my preference would change. The saddest part is I find all 6 sounded good enough musically, including the cheap number 6. I have never judged sound in isolation. I look for the overall balance. 

There very well may be a component of training -- that said I wouldn't ever make a  purchase based on a recording. I wouldn't be surprised if an FFT showed a measurable reduction in the upper octaves/harmonics for #6 however. #2 might settle down very nicely with a little time (yes instruments are broken in  

[gzubeck]

I thought #5 was the most balanced top to bottom. My next one I liked best after the strad was actually #1 1850 violin which sounded extremely sweet in the higher frequencies. Number #2 was very good modern violin and I think with time age could become a classic...long term investment (100 years?).

[esldude]

5 hours ago, STC said:

Can you pick the Stradivarius violin from sound alone? I know this is Youtube quality but at least you can hear the difference. I pick 2.

 

 

 

 

 

I had a clear and obvious preference for #2 and #5. I saw you had picked #2, but didn't know which it was when I listened.  Picking between those was tough and I chose #5.  Of the remaining choices only #6 was close in my opinion.

 

Would have been nice not to have the cell phone interference.  I also question the quality of the microphone used.  It wasn't described and did not sound like a really good microphone to me.