Is LH Labs still in business?

[Blake]

1 hour ago, Bromo33333 said:

LH Labs is struggling with making the easy-to-make mistake of going to Crowdfunding without a product to sell, just a promise to develop one.  And they ran into some serious design and production problems that got passed onto their customers.

 

Yep.  Lots of us have suffered the financial consequences, which I believe resulted from misplaced exuberance for getting a mini Da Vinci DAC at a fraction of the cost.  I think I am out around $3,000. 

 

I actually don't blame Larry for trying the crowdfunding route- it seemed like a great idea at the time.  In retrospect, the design and production issues could have been avoided but sometimes you just have to learn through trial and error.

 

Where Larry really blew it (and continues to blow it) is his failure to provide refunds.  Yes, we all signed up and assumed the risk and Larry has some of the Indiegogo fine print to hide behind to refuse the refunds, but he still has the Light Harmonic company.  Presumably Larry has the desire to continue in business and whether he likes it or not, unless he refunds money or provides the missing products, Light Harmonic is going to implode and Larry will need to find a new line of work.  

[germay0653]

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is sufficient cash flow for refunds.  Kind of like the government with Social Security, robbing Peter (us backers) to pay Paul (LHL's other endeavours).  if the cash was available, the products could have been produced by now, even with all the mistakes. 

 

As you stated Blake, the fine print is protecting them but long term, their moral and ethical integrity is in the proverbial dumpster.

 

Lesson learned but oh, what a cost.

[Jud]

The central mistake, whoever made it, was trying to be all things to all people, with a lineup of several products, each with many options creating a production and fulfillment nightmare, the vast majority of it entirely imaginary.

[Bromo33333]

I am in a few grand as well.  Caveat Emptor.

I think they increased the mix too high, created a lot of confusion, and didn't do enough up front development on the projects to prove feasibility.  When their updates were talking about prototype boards, I was thinking "Oh, boy ... I think this may not happen."

The payments several years later I would bet are all burned up in overhead, and development costs.  I think even if they had a strong desire to issue refunds, they probably do not have the funds to cover it.

I think they got so excited about the possibilities of booking orders, they lost their sense of managing risk in making crowdfunding campaigns, and didn't do enough up front work to de-risk their development.  I am sure it was a painful lesson for them.  Given the changes in personnell, I wonder about their stability at the moment.

 

[feelingears]

My cousin is a huge fan of Kickstarter and he told me the biggest blow up is some company that offered a cooler with everything but the kitchen sink. Speakers and all manner of things were added to make it the mother-of-all-tailgate coolers. The guy was supposedly a former product designer and knew people in mfg, blah blah blah.

 

Same story: some prototypes went to fulfill backers but most were left out in the cold. The "funny" part: In order to keep afloat, the creator started selling the cooler on Amazon BEFORE fulfilling Kickstarter orders... Apparently the saga continues but I didn't bother to rubberneck the wreck. And congrats to those who do succeed; business is not a walk in the park.

 

[Bromo33333]

17 minutes ago, feelingears said:

My cousin is a huge fan of Kickstarter and he told me the biggest blow up is some company that offered a cooler with everything but the kitchen sink. Speakers and all manner of things were added to make it the mother-of-all-tailgate coolers. The guy was supposedly a former product designer and knew people in mfg, blah blah blah.

 

Yep my wife was one of those backers that got left out in the cold.

I think the main lesson should be:  Get your product into limited production and use Kickstarter to get preorders once your major risks and costs are behind you.  It should be a way of promoting you, not a source of seed money.

LH Labs with the VI DAC is basically in the same boat as the Coolest Cooler.  IN the case o fthe Cooler, though, they are personally on the hook for it, and have worked out fulfillment plans as settlements in numerous lawsuits.  The terms of the money in LH Labs doesn't include consumer protections, so it ends up being Caveat Emptor.

If I were to do a kickstarter like project, I'd show a picture of 50% or more of the premiums ready to go, and will inform them with the contract manufacturer or what not, would order and buy with the rest of it.

 

[feelingears]

Yep, I can sympathize, @Bromo33333

 

By this point I suppose nobody needs to hear about Stoddard’s “book” on the topic of running an audio business. It is fascinating to consider the many choices and rationales they have made, nonetheless. And for seasoned vets like they are, they still get blowback on things like the silent Yggy analog two pre-upgrade and a rumored/suspected silent Gumby A2 upgrade (don’t quote me on this—total speculation as far as I can tell).

 

Anyway, glad we have some good if not great ones like Schiit and Sonore and Uptone to name just a few. Can’t thank these guys enough for their tireless resolve in this hobby. 

[Bromo33333]

15 hours ago, feelingears said:

Yep, I can sympathize, @Bromo33333

 

By this point I suppose nobody needs to hear about Stoddard’s “book” on the topic of running an audio business. It is fascinating to consider the many choices and rationales they have made, nonetheless. And for seasoned vets like they are, they still get blowback on things like the silent Yggy analog two pre-upgrade and a rumored/suspected silent Gumby A2 upgrade (don’t quote me on this—total speculation as far as I can tell).

 

Anyway, glad we have some good if not great ones like Schiit and Sonore and Uptone to name just a few. Can’t thank these guys enough for their tireless resolve in this hobby. 

I am not sure how this relates to LH Labs and crowdfunding disappointments, but yeah, there are a number of young companies that are doing good work.

And agree, the book is fascinating.

[feelingears]

Your comment about what they should’ve done reminded me of Stoddard’s writings on the same point, with the same conclusions. And I think he mentions the crowdfunding model a couple times as well. 

[Bromo33333]

6 hours ago, feelingears said:

Your comment about what they should’ve done reminded me of Stoddard’s writings on the same point, with the same conclusions. And I think he mentions the crowdfunding model a couple times as well. 

Ah ok makes perfect sense.  I can't see how crowdfunding could help except as exposure/marketing when you had a product.  I have considered doing it a couple of times for some non audio related things, but always backed off.

Stoddard is a great entrepreneur.  I think his take on bootstrapping is invaluable!

[Superdad]

On 7/29/2018 at 4:37 PM, Bromo33333 said:

Ah ok makes perfect sense.  I can't see how crowdfunding could help except as exposure/marketing when you had a product.  I have considered doing it a couple of times for some non audio related things, but always backed off.

 

There was a time a few years ago when we considered crowdfunding an early product.  To gauge interest and to scale the first production run accordingly.  But we would never do it unless the product was completely engineered, tested, and ready to release for board production.  

Then Light Harmonic came along and completely ruined crowdfunding for specialty audio.  Now it's just crowd-fleecing...

 

Fortunately we bootstrapped the business very nicely without any outside funding (original USB REGEN sold thousands) and can now afford to bring ever more complex and costly products into production.  It also helps that we stay very lean with staffing and facility.  I think LH Labs at one time had more than 30 employees and several large offices.  They really got WAY ahead of themselves.

[Bromo33333]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

Then Light Harmonic came along and completely ruined crowdfunding for specialty audio.  Now it's just crowd-fleecing...

I think LH did it, and there was a spectacular failure in the realm of headphones, too, that rocked crowdfuding.  I was talking to someone who is developing something really cool, and doesn't want to touch crowdfunding with a 10 foot pole since he thinks it could hurt him quite a bit.

 

[Geoff1954]

Has anyone here actually received a Geek Source?

Does anyone have any clue at all when -- or if -- they might deliver any in the future?

[DukeOfMdns]

30 minutes ago, Geoff1954 said:

Has anyone here actually received a Geek Source?

Does anyone have any clue at all when -- or if -- they might deliver any in the future?

No I have not but I understand they did ship some in Asia.

 

I've about given up.

[erniejade]

I'm still waiting on the vi tube dac. In another forum, Jerek from LH posts every once in a while and they keep blaming the case of the unit at a high failure rate and thats the reason for the delay.  I call BS because they have been saying this for a long long time.  They even changed the case and still nothing. 

 

I know i have gone with a streamer / dac type unit and if mine ever comes, it will be up for sale.  I thought about selling the place marker they sent me just to recoup some of my cash.