MQA is Vaporware

[Dr Tone]

If you continually promote MQA and ignore facts this is what you get:

 

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2019/04/01/lee-scoggins-international-editor/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[Dr Tone]

2 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

That's an April Fools' Day joke if I ever saw one.

 

2 hours ago, firedog said:

April 1.

If Lee could still post here he'd have every right to make fun of several of you. 

 

Everything Lee posted about MQA was the equivalent of an April fools joke, he's good at it.

[Dr Tone]

9 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Evidence?

 

Actually, I have some evidence.  I recorded a track from Tidal (Dreams by Fleetwood Mac from the Rumours album) and saved it to a flac file with the recommended level 5 compression.  I made sure it was exactly the same duration (by cutting the beginning or ending silence) as noted both on Tidal and the 24/96 file I own of that track. Then I converted the 24/96 track to 24/48 with the recommended level 5 compression. Here is what I got:

 

52.3 MB for the MQA file

52.0 MB for the non-MQA file

 

That's pretty close.  However, for the MQA file the compression was done by Sound Forge, while for the non-MQA file the compression was done by dbPoweramp. Maybe that accounts for the .3 MB difference? Plus, when I cut the MQA file to size, I may have been off a half second.  Then again, the MQA file may be from a different master.

 

 

 

 

[Dr Tone]

1 minute ago, lucretius said:

The problem here is that Miska took pre-existing MQA flac files.  Therefore, how did he know what level of compression, if any, had been used?

 

Well it would be silly of MQA the bandwidth saviour to not use the highest FLAC compression but you never know, they have been known to be be all fluff and mirrors before.

[Dr Tone]

3 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Interesting.

 

Of the Big 5 in streaming (not just music - Netflix, Amazon, Google, Spotify, Apple) Netflix now offer the best audio sound quality with this change.

 

I've converted many of my CD's into 320 kbps AAC to go into my Apple iCloud Music Library for mobile listening (in parallel to Apple Music) and they sound fantastic.

 

I don't know of any way to convert to 640 kbps otherwise I would try and have a listen to compare with the RBCD versions. iTunes and XLD converter are limited to 320 kbps for conversion.

 

 

Netflix would be doing multi channel in that bitrate not 2 channel.  5.1 at least maybe more.

[Dr Tone]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

People still saying “Thank you sir, may I have another.”

 

You learn to ignore the roon big 3 that repeatedly rebut every single post mentioning technical and consumer  MQA issues with “Bob says”, “I like it” and “you have a choice”.

[Dr Tone]

24 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

Can anyone tell me what the Confirmation Statement posted on 9 July 2019 means?

 

I am not fully up to date on British accounting standards.

 

Is MQA Limited liquidating?

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09123512/filing-history

[Dr Tone]

10 minutes ago, botrytis said:

Once a person's mind is made up, it is very hard to change it. Very few people make their minds up by looking for facts, they make it by using 'trusted' sources and other's opinions. Well, the audiophile should not be trusted.

 

It seems the MQA discussion also has the following:

 

Buy Meridian

Think Bob Stewart is god.

Read MQA isn't all that Bob says it is, simply refuse to believe it.

Must attach all posters against MQA and fight to death in Bob's honor even when Bob knows better than try to defend his own $invention$ in a technical discussion.

[Dr Tone]

If he had a following, he's slowly losing it.

 

[Dr Tone]

Now more extensive provenance is the big thing coming from MQA according to Danny from Roon.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/provenance-and-mqa/83875

[Dr Tone]

12 minutes ago, FredericV said:

So why does Bob pretends that C is kept?

Because upsampling is hard to market.

[Dr Tone]

58 minutes ago, firedog said:

Doesn't really apply to Apple, as they are only streaming fully lossless type compression, and not CD or hi res (even in MQA form). I don't expect mp3 type lossless formats to be affected. I'm sure the labels will be happy to keep supplying it. 
MQA is about preventing consumers from accessing master type quality from 16/44.1 lossless and up. 

Is Apple supplied the lossy files or do they create them?  “Mastered for iTunes” makes me think Apple wanted to be sourced pcm files. What if the label decided to start giving them MQA instead?

[Dr Tone]

52 minutes ago, firedog said:

MQA is a type of PCM; that's why it can be played back without MQA hardware and software. Apple could just compress an unfolded MQA file the same way it does everything else. 

I understand what it is.  My point is: would Apple put up a fight if given a lossy PCM file that has been DSPed instead of the real master to create their aac files.

[Dr Tone]

Unfortunately, the streaming companies with clout are our only hope when it comes to slowing or stopping the infestation of MQA.

 

I would hope Apple would tell them they don’t want MQA.  When they go to create their AAC files using MQA 2 issues arise: MQA CD is less than the 24/44.1 they want for mastered for iTunes and to unfold the MQA created from higher sample rates, Apple would need to pay MQA for the rights to do that.

[Dr Tone]

28 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Point is, nobody says if this is an display error, or if the file actually is 16/44.1 kHz that is mysterious converted to 24 bet depth as well as a double sample rate.
 

I’m sure you know the truth, as you must know what your DAC receives. So it would be very helpful if you tell us.

 

They have told you multiple times it is converted to 24bit 88.2.  It's the way MQA's core decoder works and they have no choice to do as MQA wants.

 

Just another place where MQA is upsampling.

[Dr Tone]

7 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Will it that’s true, MQA have some explanations to do. Cause there isn’t anything to unfold. Then some sort of upsampling must happen, which is also hard to believe. 

 

How is it hard to believe?  Everything after the first unfold has always been upsampling to get back to the source sample rate.

[Dr Tone]

6 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

It has not been confirmed what the decoder actually do. Unfolding, upsampling, adding 8 zeros etc.

I think the encoding and decoding process is described in these AES papers. I don’t know. And I think whatever the code is doing, it’s a MQA secret. 

 

It’s noted your definition is upsampling. I disagree. I’m very confident it’s an display error in Roon. But those that truly knows, won’t tell. That’s very annoying.

MQA is an end to end process. Whatever that actually means. But I think they’re very keen on keeping the original file bits and rates. Nowhere is up and down sampling said to happen during the MQA process. 
 

MQA website says:

“A full decoder is able to indicate MQA Provenance and other information such as Original Sample Rate on its UI.”

 

“Origami is always used when the input sample rate is higher than the ‘transmission rate’.”

(So one may suggest it’s not used in some cases, like when transmission rate equals sample rate)

 

“When the input is PCM, the output stream will have the same bit-depth as the input unless either a) Origami is used or b) the input is DSD or floating-point; in these cases, the MQA stream output will always be 24 bit. So an original at 44.1 kHz/24b will create a 24b file and 44.1kHz/16b will create a 16b file. However an original of 96kHz/16b) will generate a 48kHz/24b MQA file because Origami was used.”

 

The last statement tells me that a transfer rate must be 48kHz/24 if Origami is in use.

 

Under is one explanation that says how 16b can be 24b, but that explanation can’t apply to Roon. It’s totally impossible. (Well in my system, as I use a Sonictransporter). 
 

“But there is one harmless way it can be changed and that is if a 16b MQA stream is extended to 24b by the addition of zeros to the bottom 8 bits. The zeros contain no information and the MQA decoder will ignore them.

There is no benefit to this word-width extension, but it can happen benignly and automatically if a 16b MQA stream is passed over a 24-bit link such as SPDIF/optical or HDMI. 16-bit MQA goes in, 24 PCM bits come out, but the audio information in the top 16-bits is not changed – and that is all we care about.“

 

Do you have another interpretation of Bob’s words, that can point us in the direction that decoder is upsampling ? If so, please tell us. 

 

Yes, MQA keep everything a secret and uses new words to describe techniques that have been around for a while.  It's the only way to sell MQA.

 

Since the sample rate is going from 44.1 to 88.2 it definitely upsampling.  Bit depth is less important as you can't really recreate extra data if there isn't anything folded in to use to create it.

[Dr Tone]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

When the source (used by MQA encoding) was 16/44.1, there indeed is no unfold, BUT e.g. Roon still upsamples it to (24/) 88.2.

So Roon fakes the lot (a lot). But admittedly depicted by MQA Ltd.

 

Notice, or disclaimer or whatever: This wasn't the original MQA plan to have it done like that. I must assume they changed the plan, and if not them, then all who follow the MQA edigm do (unlikely).

 

Why are you trying to throw Roon under the bus on this one?  Roon implemented what they were required to do by MQA Ltd and have said just that directly to R1200CL in his/her thread on the Roon forums.  Lumin personnel in the same thread have indicated the same requirements and that they implemented it the same way.

 

For everyone other than R1200CL, there is no confusion to what is going on here.

[Dr Tone]

35 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Also he has never said Lumin output 88.1 from the original transport rate, which is now claimed Roon does.

 

No, he said Lumin's MQA Core decoder does exactly the same thing and he was replying directly to you.

 

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-to-add-millions-of-master-quality-mqa-tracks/127573/217?u=drtone

[Dr Tone]

13 hours ago, mevdinc said:

If Qobuz or any other streaming services all end up having to use MQA format then I will simply stop using streaming services altogether.
I have enough of the music I love stored locally to last me for the rest of my life.

Same here.  And I won’t lie, if back catalogs eventually become unavailable for purchase in regular PCM or DSD, I’ll look for a pirated source.

 

Artists deserve our money, and we deserve the best copy of their music available.  Leaches like MQA Ltd and the Music Labels don’t.

[Dr Tone]

18 minutes ago, FredericV said:

No such recorder exists
Only one MQA enabled ADC exists

Why would any audio engineer want to work with a very limited PCM file “MQA” when they can capture and work in 32bit float for maximum precision when DSPing.

 

Of course MQA marketing advertises end to end but leaves out the part where the real master is almost always standard PCM.

[Dr Tone]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think I can slightly adjust this for you.

 

"the real master is almost always standard PCM."

Unless it’s a flat analog capture to DSD.

[Dr Tone]

John FWIW,

 

Allan’s floating point was a joke in reference to MQA and other similar items normally found in a toilet.

[Dr Tone]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

This link is 404, but is this a new story or the one from 2015? He had "history" with Tidal...

 

If trying to access it from iOS make sure your device is in landscape orientation.  Looks to be related to some weird media queries for responsive design or something.

[Dr Tone]

17 hours ago, StephenJK said:

I use Roon on a ROCK for playback, with a switch directly connecting the ROCK to the main monoblock, and can enable MQA through the device setup.

That’s a manual override it doesn’t mean the hardware supports MQA.