HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[Luis Cesar Saiz]

23 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Due to how sampling works, by definition you get -3 dB roll-off at Nyquist frequency on sample-and-hold process. This practically starts a decade earlier.

 

Thank you for the explanation, I'll try to compensate via EQ this -3db, especially in the frequency range where cymbals take more part, because the roll-off with cymbals is very noticeable. 

[Miska]

26 minutes ago, Luis Cesar Saiz said:

Thank you for the explanation, I'll try to compensate via EQ this -3db, especially in the frequency range where cymbals take more part, because the roll-off with cymbals is very noticeable. 

 

Instead of sticking to the low 44.1k sampling rate and trying to compensate with EQ. It is better to run the DAC at 705.6k or higher rate. Then you don't need to compensate with EQ (since the -3 dB moves to 352.8k) and in addition you get rid of most of the out-of-band images that happen due to the stair-stepped waveform.

 

Alternatively, run the DAC at DSD256 or higher.

[Luis Cesar Saiz]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Instead of sticking to the low 44.1k sampling rate and trying to compensate with EQ. It is better to run the DAC at 705.6k or higher rate. Then you don't need to compensate with EQ (since the -3 dB moves to 352.8k) and in addition you get rid of most of the out-of-band images that happen due to the stair-stepped waveform.

 

Alternatively, run the DAC at DSD256 or higher.

OK, I'll do it 

[Luis Cesar Saiz]

Ok Ok, I fixed the issue, it was a room problem...😅

After trying several oversampling filters recommended by Miska, I found nothing could help the soft hi-hats cymbals etc. So I took my mic and measured the analog and digital sound using the same songs. And I found some weird excess in bass frequencies with the digital side, specially one at 54hz and a few others frequencies, not much (1 to 3 db at most), not boomy-roomy but enough to blurry things in mids and some highs 

Maybe the Spring 3 KTE is outputting much more energy in the mid to low end than my analog rig.

 

Fortunately I have a pair of bass traps, a Vicoustic cylinders bass traps that you can adapt to frequency, so I move up the inside cylinder to absorb the excess, and it worked, so now I have a very good balance and I can hear hi hats and cymbals properly.

 

Happy :D

 

Tip: next time I bought something remember to measure the room :D 

PD: Thanks Miska anyway for your help and explanations.

[mrwiggles]

Setting up new headphone rig using Ferrum stack amp and ps. Have pretty much settled on Spring 3 DAC for this setup but wondering if I should order with the preamp option for volume control. I'd read somewhere that you can switch the Orr to 'amp only' and get better dynamics, but it requires a preamp obviously in that case. Wondering if @GoldenOne has a position on this. Or anyone else with opinions would be most appreciated.

[davide256]

On 2/2/2022 at 11:01 AM, Luis Cesar Saiz said:

Woa!! I did not realize it was so huge then,....
I dunno if you have tried May KTE and if it affects the same way in the highs or are better portrayed. 
I'll get your recommendation and this weekend I'll play PCM via HQP with this rates 

 

Cheers

 

Do be careful to listen for timbre vs detail... thats the trade off I find in going from native rate to oversampled

[GoldenOne]

1 hour ago, mrwiggles said:

Setting up new headphone rig using Ferrum stack amp and ps. Have pretty much settled on Spring 3 DAC for this setup but wondering if I should order with the preamp option for volume control. I'd read somewhere that you can switch the Orr to 'amp only' and get better dynamics, but it requires a preamp obviously in that case. Wondering if @GoldenOne has a position on this. Or anyone else with opinions would be most appreciated.

The OOR in my opinion does sound ever so slightly better in bypass mode than not in bypass (and actually measures a bit better too). 

 

If the budget allows, I'd get the spring 3 preamp and put oor in bypass. 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

If the budget allows, I'd get the spring 3 preamp and put oor in bypass. 

 

Why not just use digital volume control instead? No analog distortions... And OOR has gain control, so you can adjust suitable gain for your headphones.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, davide256 said:

Do be careful to listen for timbre vs detail... thats the trade off I find in going from native rate to oversampled

 

And lot of reconstruction error distortion vs extremely low distortion, and treble roll-off vs no treble roll-off. 😅

 

Timbre is perfectly fine when your oversampling is fine.

 

[Miska]

...unless of course your native rate source happens to be 705.6k PCM or DSD256, or higher...

 

But then you still need some extra DSP magic to linearize the PCM side.

 

[mrwiggles]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:46 PM, Miska said:

Why not just use digital volume control instead? No analog distortions... And OOR has gain control, so you can adjust suitable gain for your headphones.

 

So how would volume control work in this scenario? Where would I actually adjust volume?

[barrows]

10 minutes ago, mrwiggles said:

 

So how would volume control work in this scenario? Where would I actually adjust volume?

As the suggestion was made by Miska, I would think he is referring to the HQPlayer volume control, which is available via the phone or tablet used for control.  One could also use Roon's volume control if using Roon, also available on the control phone/tablet.  

[Miska]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

As the suggestion was made by Miska, I would think he is referring to the HQPlayer volume control, which is available via the phone or tablet used for control.  One could also use Roon's volume control if using Roon, also available on the control phone/tablet.  

 

And if you use Roon + HQPlayer combination, adjusting volume from Roon will adjust HQPlayer's volume. So that combo works too.

 

And since OOR has three level gain setting, you can pretty accurately and safely match the control ranges.

 

[barrows]

9 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

And if you use Roon + HQPlayer combination, adjusting volume from Roon will adjust HQPlayer's volume. So that combo works too.

 

And since OOR has three level gain setting, you can pretty accurately and safely match the control ranges.

 

Indeed...  I use the Roon/HQP combo myself and use HQP's excellent volume control from Roon remote running on an iPad-I prefer using this to using the analog volume control in my DAC (Bricasti M3).

[mrwiggles]

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Indeed...  I use the Roon/HQP combo myself and use HQP's excellent volume control from Roon remote running on an iPad-I prefer using this to using the analog volume control in my DAC (Bricasti M3).

 

So then assuming I had a Spring 3 with the preamp module installed what do you set for your volume on your DAC given that you are using HQP volume control from an iPad? I had planned to put my Ferrum Oor into bypass mode and control volume via the Spring. But if using HQP for volume do you just turn the DAC volume to its highest setting in that case?

[barrows]

4 minutes ago, mrwiggles said:

 

So then assuming I had a Spring 3 with the preamp module installed what do you set for your volume on your DAC given that you are using HQP volume control from an iPad? I had planned to put my Ferrum Oor into bypass mode and control volume via the Spring. But if using HQP for volume do you just turn the DAC volume to its highest setting in that case?

Kind of depends on how the VC is implemented in the DAC.  In my DAC, the volume control is bypassed when set to "0 dB", so that is what I do.  For most DACs you would probably just want to set the VC to maximum, hoping that this essentially bypasses the volume control.

[mrwiggles]

4 minutes ago, barrows said:

Kind of depends on how the VC is implemented in the DAC.  In my DAC, the volume control is bypassed when set to "0 dB", so that is what I do.  For most DACs you would probably just want to set the VC to maximum, hoping that this essentially bypasses the volume control.

 

Thanks. Anyone with a Spring 3+Preamp care to comment on how this is done?

[Luis Cesar Saiz]

What does mean this screen when you open the MIDI properties on a Mac? (MacOS Catalina)

If I choose a sampling rate over 44,1Khz, like for example 1,536 since the Spring3 KTE does not have an oversampling chip, what it is happening here? 

The Spring screen shows 1,536 all the time... is the USB driver doing the oversampling via software?? Or is doing nothing??

 

Of course Not using HQP in this example, just being curious :D

Regards

 

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Luis Cesar Saiz said:

What does mean this screen when you open the MIDI properties on a Mac? (MacOS Catalina)

If I choose a sampling rate over 44,1Khz, like for example 1,536 since the Spring3 KTE does not have an oversampling chip, what it is happening here? 

The Spring screen shows 1,536 all the time... is the USB driver doing the oversampling via software?? Or is doing nothing??

 

macOS CoreAudio engine is doing the rate conversion.

 

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

macOS CoreAudio engine is doing the rate conversion.

And last I checked--about 10 years ago--CoreAudio SRC sounds truly dreadful. Any insight into what sort of filter parameters they use?

[Miska]

Just now, Superdad said:

And last I checked--about 10 years ago--CoreAudio SRC sounds truly dreadful. Any insight into what sort of filter parameters they use?

 

They sometimes update it, but it is not really quality driven algorithm, just something that is designed to be "good enough" for regular user and produce minimal CPU load.

 

Same goes for the equivalent on Windows.

 

[rah50]

I'm thinking of changing dacs. Currently I have a pretty good Sabre dac, a W4S DSD2 v2 SE, but I find it lacking in a couple of areas which I won't mention so I don't prejudice any responses. The Spring 3 is at the top of my list but I've never heard one. So my question is:

 

If you gone from a Sabre dac to the Spring 3, what differences would expect me to hear?

 

Also:

 

How good is the built-in preamp?

What level would you suggest, 2 or 3? 

 

Thanks!

[KenMoreira]

30 minutes ago, rah50 said:

I'm thinking of changing dacs. Currently I have a pretty good Sabre dac, a W4S DSD2 v2 SE, but I find it lacking in a couple of areas which I won't mention so I don't prejudice any responses. The Spring 3 is at the top of my list but I've never heard one. So my question is:

 

If you gone from a Sabre dac to the Spring 3, what differences would expect me to hear?

 

Also:

 

How good is the built-in preamp?

What level would you suggest, 2 or 3? 

 

Thanks!

Built in Pre amp is Top of the line.  Absolutely worth it 

[Miska]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:08 PM, rah50 said:

If you gone from a Sabre dac to the Spring 3, what differences would expect me to hear?

 

Smoother, less on-your-face, less brittle/harsh sound. Sounds more natural with less digital glare and etch on the surface. You may feel that the DAC adds less noticeable flavor and is more natural. I would say less listening fatigue.

 

[GoldenOne]

On 2/12/2022 at 3:46 AM, Miska said:

 

Why not just use digital volume control instead? No analog distortions... And OOR has gain control, so you can adjust suitable gain for your headphones.

 

The Spring 3 preamp seemingly has higher dynamic range than the DAC itself as I was able to attenuate I think about 15dB before the AES17 dynamic range measurement showed a reduction (I can't remember the exact figures unfortunately but it was a notable amount).

Whereas DSP vol control reduced dynamic range immediately.

Personally I prefer to do vol control on whatever device in the chain has the highest dynamic range to best preserve overall dynamic range of the chain