Cable burn-in

[alfe]

Suit yourself.

 

4 Questions to ask yourself before arguing with someone who has Alzheimer's or Dementia - Alzheimers Support

 

 

"Christianity is completely irrational and not testable" - bethinking.org

 

 

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Shameless?

[anji12305]

Shameless?

Hardly.

Read the facts, there's no sense dancing around it.

 

There's rational and irrational.

 

Identifying those realms only upsets the irrational.

 

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[sphinxsix]

@ anji12305

- (minus)

(infinity)

[anji12305]

Suit yourself.

 

http://www.free-alzheimers-support.com/wordpress/4-questions-to-ask-yourself-before-arguing-with-someone-who-has-alzheimers-dementia/

 

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/13/jared_diamond_its_irrational_to_be_religious/

 

 

 

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[anji12305]

@ anji12305

- (minus)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27958[/ATTACH]

(infinity)

Around here, it's windmills.

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[gmgraves]

I haven't done much reading of peer reviewed scientific papers regarding topics relevant to cable burn-in, so I can't come to a conclusion I know is supported by science one way or the other at the moment.

 

That might be because there probably aren't any.

 

I have heard burn-in differences between pairs of capacitors, two on each channel of a DAC I built, one brand new pair, one that had been playing a few days, playing the DAC with well-recorded mono music. So this was both channels simultaneously, no memory involved. The "burned-in" caps did sound better to me than the brand new ones.

 

Yeah, some capacitors might benefit from burn-in because many are forming a huge dielectric especially very large electrolytics.

 

I've never had the opportunity to try to duplicate this with cables.

 

However, I have done substantial research in the scientific literature on topics relevant to recollection of sound and audio testing. And I will tell you that while the literature doesn't support all that Teresa says on short term versus long term listening specifically, I would not completely dismiss it as unscientific either.

 

I wouldn't either. I can generally tell more about component differences listing to each over a long time, than I can tell with an instantaneous A/B. Gross differences show up in an A/B, but more subtle differences take a longer listening session.

[gmgraves]

I've always wondered why no one seems to ever say that after burn-in their system sounds worse.

 

 

Bingo! It's because an audiophile's focus is always toward better sound, so, subconsciously, their ear/brain biases provide that illusion. At least that would be my guess.

[rrwwss52]

There's no point in arguing this...just use the thread for the same purpose i do...it tells me who I should never listen to or trust.

 

Anybody who believes what Teresa wrote has zero credibility with me.

 

Just moving your head a few inches will change the sound, so how are these 'burn in believers' ensuring their head is in exactly the same spot a hundred hours later. Are they keeping it the same during these "long listening sessions"? Did they measure the noise floor in their room a hundred hours ago and make sure it was identical weeks later? Was the humidity the same? Was every other piece of equipment in EXACTLY the same thermal state as before? Nothing else aged or changed one bit? Were they in the exact same mood for the type of music they were comparing 100+ hours ago???

 

It's funny that you NEVER hear the unscientific crowd ever mention any of these other variables. They just want you to believe that they have superpowers that can recreate an exact duplicate of the original listening session AND remember/factor in every variable exactly.

 

If you've studied psychology, you'd actually have a better idea why the "believers" do this. The motivation behind their public commentary isnt to convince you about "breakin". It's rooted in a motivation to brag and imply they have abilities that others don't in the hobby.

 

They want you to think they have Xmen level abilities and convince you they are a "top level" audiophile.

 

Ironically, they do the complete opposite. They don't just look like fools to the scientific crowd, but the believers too. With believers, they then argue about exactly how time is required for breakin and what the specific changes are. (Notice how unscientific believers rarely agree on breakin time and changes.)

 

When you ignore logic, common sense, and science....you become gullible and prone to totally embarrassing yourself on forums. You end up having to use the EXACT same warped logic and ignorance of science that those who believes in ghosts and aliens do.

 

There's no point in arguing with such individuals....just ignore them...they are somewhat hurting the hobby and allowing scammers to prosper, but I say let people waste their money all they want. If they ignore science, then it's THEIR fault just as much as the snake oil cable makers.

 

Cable burn in believers exist. I am one such person who believes that as cables settle in, they mellow, and we become accustomed to them over that period of time. To each his own. If you don't believe it - it's OK with me. Making statements about a person's credibility about something you can't prove either way is lame. Additionally, my credibility with you is a non issue for me. You are simply another person on an audio board. I have been around this hobby a very long time - AND the best burn in is listening to, and enjoying your favorite music in a comfortable position. Relax and enjoy.

[jabbr]

Bingo! It's because an audiophile's focus is always toward better sound, so, subconsciously, their ear/brain biases provide that illusion. At least that would be my guess.

 

 

I inaugurate every new cable with a blast of "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zep. Indeed the song gets better over time

[gmgraves]

There's no point in arguing this...just use the thread for the same purpose i do...it tells me who I should never listen to or trust.

 

Anybody who believes what Teresa wrote has zero credibility with me.

 

Just moving your head a few inches will change the sound, so how are these 'burn in believers' ensuring their head is in exactly the same spot a hundred hours later. Are they keeping it the same during these "long listening sessions"? Did they measure the noise floor in their room a hundred hours ago and make sure it was identical weeks later? Was the humidity the same? Was every other piece of equipment in EXACTLY the same thermal state as before? Nothing else aged or changed one bit? Were they in the exact same mood for the type of music they were comparing 100+ hours ago???

 

It's funny that you NEVER hear the unscientific crowd ever mention any of these other variables. They just want you to believe that they have superpowers that can recreate an exact duplicate of the original listening session AND remember/factor in every variable exactly.

 

If you've studied psychology, you'd actually have a better idea why the "believers" do this. The motivation behind their public commentary isnt to convince you about "breakin". It's rooted in a motivation to brag and imply they have abilities that others don't in the hobby.

 

They want you to think they have Xmen level abilities and convince you they are a "top level" audiophile.

 

Ironically, they do the complete opposite. They don't just look like fools to the scientific crowd, but the believers too. With believers, they then argue about exactly how time is required for breakin and what the specific changes are. (Notice how unscientific believers rarely agree on breakin time and changes.)

 

When you ignore logic, common sense, and science....you become gullible and prone to totally embarrassing yourself on forums. You end up having to use the EXACT same warped logic and ignorance of science that those who believes in ghosts and aliens do.

 

There's no point in arguing with such individuals....just ignore them...they are somewhat hurting the hobby and allowing scammers to prosper, but I say let people waste their money all they want. If they ignore science, then it's THEIR fault just as much as the snake oil cable makers.

 

Makes me wonder how much of this is bragging rights? "I can hear things that you can't." That sort of thing.

[gmgraves]

 

I inaugurate every new cable with a blast of "Whole Lotta Love" by Led Zep. Indeed the song gets better over time

 

Can't comment as I don't know what a "Led Zep" is.

[Teresa]

She's 8 years afflicted by dementia, by her own account.

That's an irrational state, at best.

 

4 Questions to ask yourself before arguing with someone who has Alzheimer's or Dementia - Alzheimers Support

 

"Christianity is completely irrational and not testable" - bethinking.org

 

First, thanks for the links they were informative.

 

I've always have been clumsy, no matter how careful I try to be. It's been a long battle between me and gravity and gravity always wins.

 

My dementia was brought on by dozens of head injuries, I usually end up in the ER with my head being stitched up again.

 

One of my worse head injuries was about 10 or so years ago caused severe nerve pain in my head that never went away. I can somewhat control the pain with prescription pain killers and laying down with a cold wet towel on my forehead. I started having more and more memory problems and about 8 years ago was diagnosed with dementia.

 

I have a big problem with analytical stuff. I don't remember what I read, I couldn't even tell you what music I listened to yesterday, but I can tell you how much I enjoyed it and the basic sound of my audio system yesterday.

 

What I am trying to say is the emotional side seems to be little effected, even the few long-term memories I still have are when emotions were very strong, in other words the best and worst that happened to me in the past. Normal stuff is gone for ever, it's just the extremes left. Even later stage dementia persons respond to music and some actually become more creative in music and arts as their brain deteriorates.

 

Even before dementia I have always been an emotional person, relaying on how things make me feel as opposed to how they work. Yes, I have mental troubles but I still love music a lot.

 

Also, don't forget my equipment sounded better after burning-in the 42 years before dementia. How do I know this? I try to keep everything I have ever written or said on my computer so I can look it up at any time. My computer is my brain extension, without my computer I would be lost.

[sandyk]

even the few long-term memories I still have are when emotions were very strong, in other words the best and worst that happened to me in the past.

 

Hi Teresa

I read recently that they aren't the original memories. Supposedly your brain keeps refreshing them so they aren't lost forever.

Kind Regards

Alex

[christopher3393]

"Christianity is completely irrational and not testable" - bethinking.org

 

Are you aware that this is a Christian Fellowship site and that the article attempts to refute Dawkins (and even this is done poorly)?

 

From this and some posts in another thread, I think you are trolling.

[christopher3393]

Can't comment as I don't know what a "Led Zep" is.

 

You need coolin'.

[anji12305]

Are you aware that this is a Christian Fellowship site and that the article attempts to refute Dawkins (and even this is done poorly)?

 

From this and some posts in another thread, I think you are trolling.

It's an illustration of the sloppy refutation presented in defense of irrational positions. Jared Diamond's exploration is appended for clarity.

 

 

 

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[diggle]

@ anji

Originally Posted by anji12305

She's 8 years afflicted by dementia, by her own account.

That's an irrational state, at best.

 

Originally Posted by anji12305

As I said before, never argue with the demented or religious.

 

Someone's here a primitive bottom hole!

[jabbr]

Can't comment as I don't know what a "Led Zep" is.

 

You used to but forgot ... you shouldn't have partied that hard in the 1980s and 1990s

 

Thankfully we have a collective memory

 

Yo-yo Ma is a fan: http://m.eonline.com/news/374145/kennedy-center-honors-robert-plant-tears-up-watching-heart-s-led-zeppelin-tribute

[vmartell22]

Makes me wonder how much of this is bragging rights? "I can hear things that you can't." That sort of thing.

 

Well - it's a common comment around here in these types of threads - inevitably someone will quote/refer to/invoke either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority - then it gets nastier... then the thread gets closed... And we start over!

 

Is kind of fun to read !

 

v

[rrwwss52]

Well - it's a common comment around here in these types of threads - inevitably someone will quote/refer to/invoke either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority - then it gets nastier... then the thread gets closed... And we start over!

 

Is kind of fun to read !

 

v

 

Perception is reality, but wikipedia is not exactly the source for trusted information.

 

I agree the arguments can be entertaining to say the least!

[vmartell22]

Perception is reality, but wikipedia is not exactly the source for trusted information.

 

I agree the arguments can be entertaining to say the least!

 

Of course - wiki is just a quick reference so people know what those are all about... wouldn't think of using it for formal stuff...

 

Will the argument ever be resolved? not likely... and that is alright... amazingly I never expected those kind of arguments here - given the forum very specifically being about computer audio... such arguments were very common in the old rec.audiophile newsgroups - first really really fun one I remember is the Arnie vs. Stereophile...

 

Not too many threads re: analog vs. digital... maybe we need some analog warriors to show up causing trouble... just to make it interesting!

 

[gmgraves]

Hi Teresa

I read recently that they aren't the original memories. Supposedly your brain keeps refreshing them so they aren't lost forever.

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Your brain also changes them slightly as they are refreshed. That's why it has been found that eye-witnesses aren't very reliable, because human memory is not very reliable - especially for details.

[gmgraves]

Cable burn in believers exist. I am one such person who believes that as cables settle in, they mellow, and we become accustomed to them over that period of time. To each his own. If you don't believe it - it's OK with me. Making statements about a person's credibility about something you can't prove either way is lame. Additionally, my credibility with you is a non issue for me. You are simply another person on an audio board. I have been around this hobby a very long time - AND the best burn in is listening to, and enjoying your favorite music in a comfortable position. Relax and enjoy.

 

Could you postulate some possible reason why this might be the case? I've measured everything in cable that could be measured (in the late '60's for Lockheed/NASA) and I never saw any characteristics change over time or environment when testing long-term: That means Inductive reactance, Capacitive reactance DC resistance, cable impedance (Z), Dielectric characteristics, Insulation characteristics etc. None of these changed. Neither did any kind of signal being carried by the wiring/cabling ever change: not square waves of any frequency, frequency sweeps, etc. Nor were these measurements affected by temperature from -200K to plus 500K. So, if you (or anyone else) has a theory of what could be happening to cause cables to change over time, I'd love to hear them.

[gmgraves]

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I don't remember Teresa ever saying that her dementia was a result of Alzheimers. If she has said that this was her problem, I must have missed it. I always though it was due to some accident.

[gmgraves]

Are you aware that this is a Christian Fellowship site and that the article attempts to refute Dawkins (and even this is done poorly)?

 

From this and some posts in another thread, I think you are trolling.

 

 

Religions are a construct. It takes, I believe, a certain type of personality to look beyond that fact and still believe in whatever deity or deities that the religion is pushing. I know for a fact that I don't have that kind of personality!