Mystery revealed: UpTone Audio "UltraCap™ LPS-1"

[JohnSwenson]

Isn't this contradicting your initial statement that the quality of the PS that powers the LPS-1 won't matter? This might be the very reason for why acquiring the LPS-1 in the first place.....(?)

 

Not really, the PRIMARY purpose of the LPS-1 is to break leakage current induced ground loops, (which exist in almost all systems), the fact that the output is isolated from the input (thus not affected by noise of the feeder supply) is a bonus, not a primary goal. Of course the LPS-1 has a very low noise, very low impedance output as well.

 

As I have posted many times now, there are two very different mechanisms by which an AC power supply can interact through the AC mains:

1) traditional "noise injected back into the AC line", this is easy to measure, easy to grasp what is happening, and many devices exist to try and filter out this sort of noise.

 

2) Leakage current, this is created by capacitances between the AC line and the DC output of the supply, it ALWAYS exists but varies from supply to supply. This is hard to measure, hard to grasp what it is and how it propagates through a system. After everything else is taken care of the leakage current is still there, I consider it to be the last great untouched detriment to great sound.

 

Both #1 and #2 exist in almost any system to varying degrees. Since there is already a large body of knowledge and products to deal with #1, I set out to work on finding ways to deal with #2. The LPS-1 is the first fruits of that work.

 

Leakage current has always been there, but has not been a big issue until recently for two reasons:

A) it is fairly low level in most systems so its effects have been masked by all the other problems preventing our systems from being their best, as these other sources of problems have been identified and addressed, the sonic results of the leakage current are now much more obvious.

B) leakage current from SMPS is usually much higher than from LPS, so the inclusion of computers (which are usually run from SMPS) into systems has greatly exacerbated the sonic detriment due to leakage current.

 

Back to the listening session run last night (err morning!), my system has been designed so it has quite low leakage current to begin with, so there won't be as big an improvement as with many other systems. I was actually surprised at how much of an improvement the LPS-1 brought.

 

When I run the system without the LPS-1 and use the MeanWell it is MUCH worse than with the JS-2 on its own, putting the LPS-1 in the system was significantly better than the JS-2 without the LPS-1. With the MeanWell feeding the LPS-1 the sound was only slightly worse than with the JS-2 feeding the LPS-1, still quite a bit better than the JS-2 on its own and WAY WAY better than the MeanWell on its own. I think that is a pretty good showing.

 

I let the system run over night with the MeanWell powering the LPS-1 and it now sounds almost identical to the JS-2 powering the LPS-1. The MeanWell is now warm, it was cold last night, that probably has something to do with it. At this point I have no idea what is actually responsible for the difference in sound between the MeanWell and JS-2 powering the LPS-1, the two obvious choices are: noise injected back into the AC line (I KNOW this is worse for the MeanWell than the JS-2, this I have measured) OR there is some small component of the MeanWell noise that is somehow getting through the LPS-1, since the sonic difference is small it's going to be VERY difficult to measure which it might be.

 

There is still a lot more listening to do in different circumstances, but personally I am very happy with these results.

 

John S.

[Distinctive]

John may answer your last question (the LPS-1's output impedance is VERY low though), but I can assure you that the output of our new supply is not affected in the least by any aspect of the supply that energizes it. Not one bit!

 

Think of it this way. Is the quality of the light coming from your flashlight affected by the charger you used to charge its batteries? Does the water in your glass taste any different if you filled your storage tank by hand pumping it versus using an electric pump? (Sorry, we are here in dry California and I am on a low-productivity well, so water issues are never far from my mind.)

I still find the recent comments on isolation and sonic differences peculiar, but maybe it is just me.....

[Superdad]

I totally disagree. Actual user.

 

Hi Jason: Let's be sure you understood what I said--and that I understand what you are saying.

 

First, we should be able to agree that the power output from both the LIO and our UltraCap LPS-1 are 100% galvanically isolated from the mains supply and that said output(either for the LIO's internal modules or the regulator add-in to provide output to MicroRendu) is not at all effected by the SMPS brick supplied with either firm's product.

 

The discussion--a bit of a tired and distracting one really--is about if plugging an SMPS into a wall (regardless of what it is powering) is detrimental to a music system, either due to SMPS high-freqency switching noise being injected back into the mains, or, as likely, due to leakage currents that all SMPS units amply, well leak. It is an issue for some people/systems and not for others--very dependent on rest of gear, power isolation, grounding, etc. But this is more about what an SMPS (or most LPS for that matter) does to affect the rest of the system--not the bank switching ultracap power supplies (currently unique to just the Vinnie Rossi LIO and our new product).

 

To be clear, I was not suggesting that a 24V JS-2 would sound better than the ultracap supply in the LIO (those are not the internal voltages anyway of course). I was pointing out that Firedog's suggestion of the LIO being cleaner, was, in light of the SMPS argument, a double standard since the 24V/5A SMPS brick the LIO is energized by is no better/worse (to the wall) than the 7.5V/2.93A Mean Well we supply.

 

While I think the whole argument is silly (and you already know that I think highly of both Vinnie and his LIO system), the logical question becomes if you have ever powered your LIO with a near-compltely line-quiet, 24V PFC supply that also had very low leakage current. If not, then your user data point to disagree is not on target to the discussion.

 

None of this is a reflection on the LIO (or our LPS-1), one might as well test just by plugging an SMPS into the wall and not hooking it to anything (particularly in the case of both these galvanically isolated ultracap supplies since any SMPS leakage current goes nowhere in our boxes).

 

I hope the above makes sense to everyone.

 

--Alex C.

[jtwrace]

First, we should be able to agree that the power output from both the LIO and our UltraCap LPS-1 are 100% galvanically isolated from the mains supply and that said output(either for the LIO's internal modules or the regulator add-in to provide output to MicroRendu) is not at all effected by the SMPS brick supplied with either firm's product.

Correct.

 

The discussion--a bit of a tired and distracting one really--is about if plugging an SMPS into a wall (regardless of what it is powering) is detrimental to a music system, either due to SMPS high-freqency switching noise being injected back into the mains, or, as likely, due to leakage currents that all SMPS units amply, well leak. It is an issue for some people/systems and not for others--very dependent on rest of gear, power isolation, grounding, etc. But this is more about what an SMPS (or most LPS for that matter) does to affect the rest of the system--not the bank switching ultracap power supplies (currently unique to just the Vinnie Rossi LIO and our new product).

That's just it Alex, with the LIO configured as a full package (pre-amp, amp, headphone amp, phono stage, dac and power for the µRendu) there is NO NOISE that can go back into the stereo since it's fully powered by the LIO Patent Pending Ultracapacitor banks.

 

To be clear, I was not suggesting that a 24V JS-2 would sound better than the ultracap supply in the LIO (those are not the internal voltages anyway of course). I was pointing out that Firedog's suggestion of the LIO being cleaner, was, in light of the SMPS argument, a double standard since the 24V/5A SMPS brick the LIO is energized by is no better/worse (to the wall) than the 7.5V/2.93A Mean Well we supply.

I'd agree from one SMPS to another. However, there are other Vinnie Rossi options that haven't been discussed here (nor should they be in your thread) but there are other options.

 

While I think the whole argument is silly (and you already know that I think highly of both Vinnie and his LIO system), the logical question becomes if you have ever powered your LIO with a near-compltely line-quiet, 24V PFC supply that also had very low leakage current. If not, then your user data point to disagree is not on target to the discussion.

Haha. Yes, I have.

 

My (2) Vinnie Rossi LIO's. One AVC/Tubestage and One DHT. Both fully configured identically.

[Guidof]

 

There is still a lot more listening to do in different circumstances, but personally I am very happy with these results.

 

John S.

 

John:

 

Since the early days of the Squeezebox Touch, I have learned a lot from your posts, first in the Squeezebox Forum and then in CA. Moreover, my enjoyment of recorded music has been tremendously enhanced by your two recent creations, the Uptone Audio REGEN and the Sonore microRendu (with due credit given to Alex, Andrew, Jesus et al for their contributions to these devices).

 

I owe you a considerable debt of gratitude, which I look forward to increasing shortly (I hope) when the LPS-1 is in my system. In the meantime your positive impression of its sonic benefits, both with modest and top-level energizers, is indeed great news!

 

Best regards,

 

Guido F.

[Superdad]

That's just it Alex, with the LIO configured as a full package (pre-amp, amp, headphone amp, phono stage, dac and power for the µRendu) there is NO NOISE that can go back into the stereo since it's fully powered by the LIO Patent Pending Ultracapacitor banks.

 

Good point. And quite related to John's post about leakage currents. The whole system in one box with one great isolated supply. (Yet there is still the USB connection from the computer which needs to be galvanically isolated before the LIO. Though did you say you have the MicroRendu and the LIO module to power it? That would get you fully covered. )

[jtwrace]

Good point. And quite related to John's post about leakage currents. The whole system in one box with one great isolated supply. (Yet there is still the USB connection from the computer which needs to be galvanically isolated before the LIO. Though did you say you have the MicroRendu and the LIO module to power it? That would get you fully covered. )

Yes, both LIO's are configured this way.

[kennyb123]

I've got one of these old guys for PF correction, but for $100....

 

I have one of those too! Paid the same for mine. Spectral recommended those back in the day of the amps of our vintage. Well worth the price.

[rickca]

To me this means that I could use the USB Regen supplied SMPS and buy the LPS-1 for USD395 and still beat the USD925 JS-2 in SQ.

 

Yeah, that is exactly the conclusion I drew from John's post, it's fantastic! John said his system sounded even better with a JS-2 driving the LPS-1. That is not inconsistent with his claim that the LPS-1 itself is completely isolated from the mains and that its output is unaffected by the energizing supply.

[izzard1982]

Uh, well that would be applying a double standard to us. Like a $395 UltraCap LPS-1, the LIO's supercap power supply (and its $395 option for a single voltage output dedicated to the MicroRendu) is energized by an external SMPS brick.

How is this any different on the AC side?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28515[/ATTACH]

 

And while anyone will be welcome to energize our UltraCap supply with some other unit they feel is more wall-benign (the wall and effect on other components is the only place such will matter as the output of the LPS-1 is 100% unaffected), one needs to remember that John's comment of a slight improvement was with the JS-2, which as far as we know is the ONLY power-factor-corrected LPS on the market. (Meaning that its PF is about 0.97, and that unlike other LPS units which draw current only during about half the waveform--PF about 0.5--thus injecting diode switching noise and harmonics back into the line.)

Our choke filter is what accomplishes that. So if we offered a 24V/5A JS-2, it would be an improvement for Vinnie Rossi LIO users as well.

 

Anyway, all this misses the point. The LPS-1 will sound fantastic and offer greater performance and cool technology in its current range than any other LPS on the market. Yes, the optionally omitted Mean Well brick puts a little back into the wall (and not everyone's system is sensitive to that), but so does every other SMPS and LPS on the market--except the JS-2.

 

Thems the breaks. And for people who think this is a ploy to sell more JS-2s, I got news for you: The JS-2 is a very time consuming product to built, test, stock parts for, etc. On a profit per hour basis the LPS-1 (and REGEN) smokes the JS-2 as a business growth product.

 

Lastly, you can read way upthread where John and I hinted at some plans for an inexpensive, hybrid, super-mains-quiet energizing supply for the LPS-1, as an add on for those who are allergic to having any SMPS plugged into their walls. It will kick back to the wall FAR less than other available LPS units--and its output will likely be clean/quiet enough for some non-critial components like Ethernet switches, drives, etc.--where just getting rid of SMPS high-frequency switching and excessive leakage currents is likely the reason some people hear benefits with a cheap linear on those. But I want that little hybrid to sell for about $100, and that is not easy to do anytime one has a power inlet, fuse, switch, voltage selector, transformer, case, PCB, and labor. Unless we can scale up to having 1000 units built in China, and even then…

 

So here are some pics:

 

The front/back panels.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28511[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

The new production space we broke ground on at the beginning of May. A couple of months away from moving in.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28512[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28513[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28514[/ATTACH]

 

Can I charge it with 6v?

[JohnSwenson]

Can I charge it with 6v?

 

No, the official spec is 7.5V (designed to be used with the 7.5V MeanWell shipped with REGENs), although in reality 7V will JUST barely work. 6V is too low, the boost circuit will not produce a high enough voltage.

 

John S.

[izzard1982]

No, the official spec is 7.5V (designed to be used with the 7.5V MeanWell shipped with REGENs), although in reality 7V will JUST barely work. 6V is too low, the boost circuit will not produce a high enough voltage.

 

John S.

 

Thanks John, was trying to see if I can keep the Sbooster in the chain, it seems it will be the MW rejoining the chain

[Abee_V]

Hi John,

 

Hope you can clarify for me. When you say - "Not really, the PRIMARY purpose of the LPS-1 is to break leakage current induced ground loops, (which exist in almost all systems)" does that mean by using the LPS-1 the induced ground loops are broken through the whole chain of equipment ( ie dac to preamp, amp etc)?

[mikey8811]

No, the official spec is 7.5V (designed to be used with the 7.5V MeanWell shipped with REGENs), although in reality 7V will JUST barely work. 6V is too low, the boost circuit will not produce a high enough voltage.

 

John S.

 

So the iFi iPower 9V that works on the uRendu will work? Have you tried it? If so, what are the results?

[JohnSwenson]

So the iFi iPower 9V that works on the uRendu will work? Have you tried it? If so, what are the results?

I have tried the iPower 9V on the bench and it works fine, I have not used it in the listening tests.

 

I was going to try some more combinations last night, but the system is sounding so good now I could not tear myself away from the music to do anymore tests!

 

After running for a day it is now sounding even better.

 

John S.

[jtwrace]

After running for a day it is now sounding even better.

 

John S.

 

Now you sound like an audiophile and not an engineer.

[JohnSwenson]

Now you sound like an audiophile and not an engineer.

 

That is the weird juxtaposition. I can hear things I have no explanation for, which as an engineer drives me nuts. But I am not willing to dismiss everything I hear just because I don't have an explanation. Which can lead to some strange false paths along the way to finding out what is happening.

 

John S.

[Distinctive]

Remember the old saying:

'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is....!

[JohnSwenson]

Hi John,

 

Hope you can clarify for me. When you say - "Not really, the PRIMARY purpose of the LPS-1 is to break leakage current induced ground loops, (which exist in almost all systems)" does that mean by using the LPS-1 the induced ground loops are broken through the whole chain of equipment ( ie dac to preamp, amp etc)?

 

Unfortunately this is a complex issue that takes more than one reply in a forum.

 

The short answer is that the LPS-1 will break a loop that would have been there if it was not in place. I know that doesn't clear up anything so a few examples might help.

 

Lets take the case of a DAC, and power amp. Without an LPS-1 there will be a ground loop through the DAC power supply, through the interconnect cables to the amp then through the power supply of the amp then the AC line back to the PS of the DAC. Powering the DAC from an LPS-1 will break that loop. It just has to be on one of the components in the loop.

 

Now lets make this more complicated and add a preamp between the DAC and amp, without the LPS-1 there are now three loops, DAC to preamp, DAC to power amp and preamp to amp. Adding the LPS-1 to the DAC breaks the first two loops but does not break the loop between the preamp and power amp.

 

I'm working on a document that covers this whole subject in greater detail and gives a bunch of examples which hopefully will make the whole topic easier to understand.

 

Just a quick word about leakage current loops, anywhere you have a device which is AC mains powered connected to another device that is mains powered with some form of electrical connection, such as audio interconnects, copper digital connection etc, you WILL get a ground loop. It may or may not be grossly audible, but it will be there. For some loops the only indication it was there is that when you break it the sound is better.

 

You can break the loop in three places, the connection to the AC mains (use a battery), the connection between the DC output of the PS and the electronics (use an LPS-1), or the interconnection between devices, such as TOSLINK with computer to DAC or using a transformer on the input to a preamp.

 

The LPS-1 is one of the tools you can use in this process.

 

John S.

[sandyk]

That is the weird juxtaposition. I can hear things I have no explanation for, which as an engineer drives me nuts. But I am not willing to dismiss everything I hear just because I don't have an explanation. Which can lead to some strange false paths along the way to finding out what is happening.

 

John S.

 

Hi John

Don't bother trying to explain yet, or it will drive you nuts !

Try using this remarkable supply with your Regen plugged directly into a direct motherboard USB port via an adaptor without the +5V and shield connections and you will find that the Regen you designed is capable of much more than anybody believed possible, especially the closed minded technical types. It can even improve the Signal Integrity of files saved to a USB memory stick, so that even HDTV .ts files with 2.0 LPCM or 5.1 DD Audio sound better, or better still, the downloaded high resolution .flac files from HDTracks or Linn Records sound better when converted back to .wav again! Yes , also the audio from well recorded DVD Music Video .vob files too.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

I will not be going further with this in open forum in C.A. , but I do have verification from others of the absolute need for way better PSUs than commonly used with Computer Audio. As John (and another Sydney member) has found, even his JS2 can be further improved upon when used with Servers etc.

[Abee_V]

Thanks John.

[R1200CL]

 

I let the system run over night with the MeanWell powering the LPS-1 and it now sounds almost identical to the JS-2 powering the LPS-1. The MeanWell is now warm, it was cold last night, that probably has something to do with it. At this point I have no idea what is actually responsible for the difference in sound between the MeanWell and JS-2 powering the LPS-1, the two obvious choices are: noise injected back into the AC line (I KNOW this is worse for the MeanWell than the JS-2, this I have measured) OR there is some small component of the MeanWell noise that is somehow getting through the LPS-1, since the sonic difference is small it's going to be VERY difficult to measure which it might be.

 

There is still a lot more listening to do in different circumstances, but personally I am very happy with these results.

 

John S.

 

John

 

Can you also try with the 9V iFi power ?

 

Would not a correct test be using a Power conditioner, in order to remove the noise sent back to AC mains ?

Then you hopfully will not notice any difference between PS used to feed the LPS-1.

[R1200CL]

Unfortunately this is a complex issue that takes more than one reply in a forum.

 

The LPS-1 is one of the tools you can use in this process.

 

John S.

 

John

 

Do you understand Scandinavian language ? Or is it only your name that is Sweedish ?

Here is an article I think you find interesting. It about which way you plug the socket.

 

Usynlige fiender og Hi-Fi demoner! | Forlaget SEÑORC

or in PDF

http://www.dpguiden.no/pdf/Annet/Strom_demoner_Fidelity57.pdf

 

Maybe someone can translate, and make a thread about it

[R1200CL]

Google translate for the article in the above post.

https://translate.google.no/translate?hl=&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsenorc.no%2F%3Fp%3D226

[JohnSwenson]

John

 

Do you understand Scandinavian language ? Or is it only your name that is Sweedish ?

Here is an article I think you find interesting. It about which way you plug the socket.

 

Usynlige fiender og Hi-Fi demoner! | Forlaget SEÑORC

or in PDF

http://www.dpguiden.no/pdf/Annet/Strom_demoner_Fidelity57.pdf

 

Maybe someone can translate, and make a thread about it

 

My great great grandfather was from Sweden, I don't speak the language (my father didn't either, but HIS father did).

 

I did some reading of the translation, it has some things right and some things wrong. That's what I mean by it is a complex subject. Because of that I really can't go into all the details right now, it would be a 20 page reply.

 

One thing that was very interesting is that 3 phase power was going into houses in Norway, I did not know that any place on earth actually fed 3 phase into houses. That makes some of what is in this article different than it will be anywhere else.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

John S.