T+a dac 8 dsd

[YashN]

Now I need to read the instructions, wire it up and give it a test listen tonight.

 

Specifically for DSD and the Tube amp, do leave some listening impressions in this thread: Lampise your DSD.

 

DSD and Tubes is a very natural pairing, IMO (playing native DSD64 to 256 with my DIY SET Tube Amp here with KT-88s and 12AT7 as driver).

[jabbr]

Or you could build an amplifier with a Sony VFet/unobtanium...

[guiltyboxswapper]

Stereoplay scored both the Vega and the Dac 8 DSD the same overall. Which I find amusing, as its quite a night and day difference, even in PCM mode.

 

Surprised nobody's translated the Audio.de conclusion yet... ;-)

[John769]

Has anyone heard both the recently replaced and now current (DSD) model with PCM and how do they compare?

 

Noticed a few not-so-good forum comments (from various places) about PCM on the older model, despite the gushing hifi news review.

[skatbelt]

 

They ranked it higher as it's predecessor. I included the complete Stereoplay 'absolute top/reference class' list that was published by the end of 2015. Note that the list is a bit Western-Europe oriented. Berkeley product's, for example, cannot be bought here commercially because they contain leaded solder.

[guiltyboxswapper]

Audio.de : Testbericht über 1 D/A-Wandler in AUDIO 5/2016 - I get the impression they tested past the usual DSD 64 modes, hence the following translation via google :

 

"Plus: Excellent sound in all digital formats, DSD-capable up to the highest resolution, reference converter of editors, level control, relatively cheaper price.

Minus: no analog inputs."

"What was tested?

A D / A converter was in check and received in sound judgment 140 points. Sound RCA / XLR, features, operation and processing were used as test criteria."

 

Have to admit its nice for someone to give it some credit. The way it simply 'walked' all over the Auralic Vega is startling. Before selling the Vega, we had it on for a day properly warmed up. Didn't stay plugged in all that long...

[hifial]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]25527[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25529[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]25530[/ATTACH]

 

They ranked it higher as it's predecessor. I included the complete Stereoplay 'absolute top/reference class' list that was published by the end of 2015. Note that the list is a bit Western-Europe oriented. Berkeley product's, for example, cannot be bought here commercially because they contain leaded solder.

 

I must say that I am not impressed by how this review was carried out and its conclusions.

 

They give the T+A DAC 8 DSD a rating of 95. But if you look in the chart on the right they rank the Meitner Audio MA1 at 97. Well I owned the MA1 and I can tell you that it is a great sounding DAC but the DAC 8 DSD is at least as good if not better without using HQ Player. Then add HQP into the mix up-sampling all rates (PCM/DSD) to DSD512 and now the DAC 8 DSD is in another league.

 

They seem to use PCM as the primary/only way to test and rank the DAC's. Whats the point if the DAC is also DSD capable.

[skatbelt]

I must say that I am not impressed by how this review was carried out and its conclusions.

 

They give the T+A DAC 8 DSD a rating of 95. But if you look in the chart on the right they rank the Meitner Audio MA1 at 97. Well I owned the MA1 and I can tell you that it is a great sounding DAC but the DAC 8 DSD is at least as good if not better without using HQ Player. Then add HQP into the mix up-sampling all rates (PCM/DSD) to DSD512 and now the DAC 8 DSD is in another league.

 

They seem to use PCM as the primary/only way to test and rank the DAC's. Whats the point if the DAC is also DSD capable.

 

The review does not describe the sources/associated equipment.

 

I currently live in the camp of non-believers where DSD is concerned but I have to admit I did not yet hear a pure DSD DAC in combination with HQ player up-sampling to DSD256 or DSD512.

 

Am I wrong or is the T+A DAC 8 DSD one of the first DAC's that does DSD512 in true 1 bit conversion? If so, can it not be the case that most credits have to go to HQ player and it's filtering?

[guiltyboxswapper]

Am I wrong or is the T+A DAC 8 DSD one of the first DAC's that does DSD512 in true 1 bit conversion? If so, can it not be the case that most credits have to go to HQ player and it's filtering?

 

Correct.

[Argopo]

Specifically for DSD and the Tube amp, do leave some listening impressions in this thread: Lampise your DSD.

 

DSD and Tubes is a very natural pairing, IMO (playing native DSD64 to 256 with my DIY SET Tube Amp here with KT-88s and 12AT7 as driver).

 

Will do. My DIY SET amp uses either 2A3s or 300Bs as output, and a pair of 6V6GTs as drivers, with a 6SN7 as input. You can see my build album here: https://flic.kr/s/aHskagaFHE

A few thoughts:

 

Using my HTPC as my audio control PC (until I build a custom audio PC or a dual-use Workstation PC to up-sample to DSD512).

 

Bit-perfect PCM (via BNC SPDIF):

 

I modded my HTPC to output PCM direct from the MB using a true 75ohm BNC connection end to end. I used JRiver with the default WASAPI Realtek HD Audio device driver. In this configuration, the T+A DAC sounded pretty good, but nothing special.

 

Up-sampled PCM (via USB):

 

Again using JRiver on the control PC as Server/Player, up-sampling PCM to 352.8 kHz or 384 kHz connected to my NAA/Renderer via Network Ethernet with the T+A ASIO driver being used by JRiver as Renderer on the NAA/Renderer PC.

 

The NAA/Renderer is a small fanless PC (ASRock Q1900TM-ITX, 4GB memory, Startech add-on USB card, HDPlex LPS) with Windows 10 (standard install). And a Uptone Regen connected to the DAC.

 

This configuration sounded much better than PCM via BNC. Great improvement all-around. I would attribute this to (a) using ASIO driver vs. WASAPI, (b) isolating the DAC from the control PC via Ethernet and © clean power to the NAA/Renderer using the LPS.

 

If I weren't aware of HQPlayer, this setup would be more than acceptable.

 

Up-sampled PCM to DSD256 (via USB):

 

Since I am using my HTPC (dual-core i3-4330, 8GB memory) as my control PC for audio, I am limited to DSD256.

 

Switching to HQPlayer and up-sampling to DSD256 (poly-sinc, DSD7, non-DOP DSD) the sonic rewards were obvious. Detailed, natural/organic playback.

 

 

As an example, Sinead O'Connor's Am I Not Your Girl? is a well recorded album, but is audibly hot. The treble edge which can be unpleasant, is very noticeable and distracting using PCM (JRiver), but almost absent with HQPlayer (up-sampled to DSD) without losing detail.

 

Another thing I noticed, generally, when using HQPlayer, is there was greater depth information in terms of acoustic ambience.

 

I could listen to this setup all day, regardless of source material.

 

Primary listening was done using headphones: either LCD-X with my M3 balanced amp, or HD800 with my single-ended tube amp. And using my Emotiva DAC-1 as a preamp (which uses the MUSES chips for volume control).

 

Aside from building a dedicated audio control PC for DSD512, potential future improvements:

 

1. Replace Startech USB card with a JCAT card. (Not totally convinced this would be worth the price difference.)

2. Fiber (in some form) for network connections.

3. Fidelizer Pro for NAA and control PC.

[Priaptor]

The review does not describe the sources/associated equipment.

 

I currently live in the camp of non-believers where DSD is concerned but I have to admit I did not yet hear a pure DSD DAC in combination with HQ player up-sampling to DSD256 or DSD512.

 

Am I wrong or is the T+A DAC 8 DSD one of the first DAC's that does DSD512 in true 1 bit conversion? If so, can it not be the case that most credits have to go to HQ player and it's filtering?

 

It seems from those who have used the DAC this is only way to use it. Maybe they should consider a "stripped down" version 512 DSD only with a free subscription to HQP.

[hifial]

The review does not describe the sources/associated equipment.

 

I currently live in the camp of non-believers where DSD is concerned but I have to admit I did not yet hear a pure DSD DAC in combination with HQ player up-sampling to DSD256 or DSD512.

 

Am I wrong or is the T+A DAC 8 DSD one of the first DAC's that does DSD512 in true 1 bit conversion? If so, can it not be the case that most credits have to go to HQ player and it's filtering?

 

 

Well, if you look at the chart on the left, the AP tests are all PCM based. So if they used any DSD why not use it in the AP. Also any associated equipment has no meaning as to its rating of 95 vs the rating of 97 for the Meitner MA1. Unless if they are using a higher quality amp and/or speaker testing the MA1 vs the T+A, then their test numbers are worthless and pointless for any comparisons.

 

Come to think about it any rating that is not current losses its worth as time goes by. The improvement in sound of DAC's is moving at a rapid rate and two to three years is a long time right now for DAC's. That pass is bound to slow but where are not there yet.

 

Yes, the T+A is one of the few. I am not sure "most" of the credit has to go to HQP. One without the other will not get you there. Many of us get great sound using HQP up-sampling all to DSD256 with a DSD256 capable DAC. But each of those DAC's sound different and some sound better then others.

But DSD512 through the T+A DAC 8 DSD is in a different league.

 

But also DSD256 through the T+A is better sounding then through the Mytek Brooklyn (with an outboard PS) so credit has to be given to the DAC. Not that the Brooklyn has anything to be ashamed of. It was a very good showing.

[YashN]

Will do. My DIY SET amp uses either 2A3s or 300Bs as output, and a pair of 6V6GTs as drivers, with a 6SN7 as input. You can see my build album here: https://flic.kr/s/aHskagaFHE

 

Great pics of a very clean and solid-looking build!

 

Svetlana 300Bs, Lundahl, Neutrik lock-ons, separate PSU with DC umbilical cord, Mundorf, Elan Cerafine and Silmic, Jupiter, Nichicon, WIMA, gold-plated tube sockets, gold-plated turrets too?

 

Looks like a near cost-no-object and very personal build. This must have been a thoroughly satisfying build and will provide years of enjoyment and pride.

 

The little turret boards are quite cool: makes it a hybrid point-to-point and Turret build and think this helps with maintenance and/or easily swapped components.

[57gold]

But DSD512 through the T+A DAC 8 DSD is in a different league.

.

 

How you playing such hi rez files using a Mac Mini?

 

Thought w/out drivers, OS X based units limited to DSD128 (which is what I'm playing through my Mytek with FW and HQ Player).

[hifial]

How you playing such hi rez files using a Mac Mini?

 

Thought w/out drivers, OS X based units limited to DSD128 (which is what I'm playing through my Mytek with FW and HQ Player).

 

 

With my exaSound I use a driver that exaSound made that allows DSD256 Native, none DoP. But My Mac Mini is also boot-camped so I can use W10. So yes if I am using the OS X and no Drivers I would be limited to 128DSD depending on the DAC. So I could use the Mac Mini with the T+A DAC 8 DSD. What I do not know is if the Mac Mini I have has enough processing power to up-sample to DSD512 using HQ Player. I know it has enough to do DSD256 as I have done that for a few years now with either W10 or OS X.

 

However I am not using the Mac Mini with the T+A DAC 8 DSD. I have yet to get a T+A DAC 8 DSD. As I have said in an earlier post all my comments are based on a demo of the T+A DAC 8 DSD (and the Mytek Brooklyn with outboard power supply) at lmitche house. Once I have a T+A DAC 8 DSD in house I will say so.

 

Hope this helps.

[57gold]

However I am not using the Mac Mini with the T+A DAC 8 DSD. I have yet to get a T+A DAC 8 DSD. As I have said in an earlier post all my comments are based on a demo of the T+A DAC 8 DSD (and the Mytek Brooklyn with outboard power supply) at lmitche house. Once I have a T+A DAC 8 DSD in house I will say so.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks, long thread so I missed the fact that you did not own a DAC 8 DSD.

 

Did see that you put up your Exasound for sale, so assumed you had already replaced it.

 

Have same quad core Mini, which works way better than the duo core 2011 I had been using with HQ Player...breathes easy at DSD128, and has legs to get to 256, as you have experienced.

 

No experience with boot-camping...does running W10 on a Mini use up a bunch of processing power?

[hifial]

Thanks, long thread so I missed the fact that you did not own a DAC 8 DSD.

 

Did see that you put up your Exasound for sale, so assumed you had already replaced it.

 

Have same quad core Mini, which works way better than the duo core 2011 I had been using with HQ Player...breathes easy at DSD128, and has legs to get to 256, as you have experienced.

 

No experience with boot-camping...does running W10 on a Mini use up a bunch of processing power?

 

Yep, easy to miss. I usually like to sell my equipment before I replace it, if possible. But if it takes a while to sell the exaSound I will not wait. However I am not the impatient type. I am not willing to lose money to make a quick sale. When it sells it sells. All I ask for is a fair price.

 

As far as W10...when I used W8.1 I had no issue...I only recently moved to W10 and now my system is down and apart as I plan on possible selling even the Mac Mini and the JS-2. So I can not give you an answer. But I would believe that W10 would be the same or most likely better then W8.1 in use of processing power.

 

I LOVE the sound of my exaSound MK III .082 with the Paul Hynes SR3-12 power supply and the Uptone Audio power supply modify Mac Mini with the JS-2 power supply. It takes a lot to beat them by any worthwhile margin. This is with using HQ Player to up-sample all rates to DSD256.

 

For me to sell the above...well I think one gets the picture.

[EuroDriver]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Lothar Wiemann, the Chief Engineer of T+A, for the first time. The meeting was short as I had to pick up the PDP-3000 for testing before Munich. We audiophiles are very lucky to have such a talented, creative and innovative guy like Lothar pushing the envelop on DSD. I will just give one quotation

 

"for DSD playback, jitter control is really important"

 

Lothar then went on to describe the measures he has taken to get the jitter under control, some of which are pretty dam clever and elegant

 

I think it's going to be some time before another sub US $ 20 K DSD 512 converter sounds as good as Lothars !

[firedog]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Lothar Wiemann, the Chief Engineer of T+A, for the first time. The meeting was short as I had to pick up the PDP-3000 for testing before Munich. We audiophiles are very lucky to have such a talented, creative and innovative guy like Lothar pushing the envelop on DSD. I will just give one quotation

 

"for DSD playback, jitter control is really important"

 

Lothar then went on to describe the measures he has taken to get the jitter under control, some of which are pretty dam clever and elegant

 

I think it's going to be some time before another sub US $ 20 K DSD 512 converter sounds as good as Lothars !

I hope they try and make a Linux driver; there are lots of linux playback devices around now, and a shame for their owners not to be able to use the DACs.

[skatbelt]

^^ stop the hyping please

 

edit: referring to post 293

[hifial]

^^ stop the hyping please

 

edit: referring to post 293

 

So he gives us info that none of us would have and you call that hyping?

 

He gives us his opinion and experience about what this thread is about and that is hyping?

 

If not for EuroDriver NONE of us would know how much better the T+A DAC 8 DSD could sound by up-sampling all to DSD512.

 

What is your problem, this thread is about T+A and all that relates to it. And ALL are entitled to post there thoughts and info, about the subject.

 

Sorry, but if anyone is out of line it is you. Just my opinion.

[EuroDriver]

^^ stop the hyping please

 

edit: referring to post 293

 

After Munich High End next week, I am happy to send you my personal DAC 8 DSD for you to play around with for 2 weeks

 

then you can take over the hyping duties :-)

 

Yesterday, we spent a day with a DSD non believer. His initial reaction was

- it does not sound right

- the sound stage is all wrong

- this is not music, PCM is much better

 

what was clear to edbk and me was that he was outside of his comfort listening zone.

 

there is a lot more micro detail and spatial cues being delivered, and consequently there need to be adjustments to the speaker positioning and room treatments

 

let me tell my story about the first time I had DSD 256 to my Exasound E20 which replaced my T+A DAC 8

 

i was absolutely delighted by the sonics of my test tracks, and then I played my favorite tracks, Julia Fischer Bach violin concertos released by Decca - the playback quality was a disaster, a complete collapse of the soundstage ! Julia Fischer where are you ?

 

between my speakers was a large carved oak chest, pretty sonically benign and a nice diffusing surface so I thought. It certainly sounded good with PCM

 

Holding back the tears, I moved a GIK 242 panel off a wall and placed it in front of the chest, and Julia Fischer was in front of me again

 

My 2 cents from this is that extra detail and spatial cues are a two edged sword, you have to watch out for overload and conflicting info for the brain, the balance between absorption and diffusion of the room treatments needs to be shifted to wards absorbtion

[EuroDriver]

^^ stop the hyping please

 

edit: referring to post 293

 

OK, now for a bit of balance, the Internal PCM upsampling of the Chord DAV is amazing, sounds even better than what HQP player can do PCM to PCM

 

for people who don't want to run a PC in their system to do format conversion, the DAV is a great solution, but just less magic for my old ears

[EuroDriver]

Yesterday I had the pleasure of meeting Lothar Wiemann, the Chief Engineer of T+A, for the first time. The meeting was short as I had to pick up the PDP-3000 for testing before Munich. We audiophiles are very lucky to have such a talented, creative and innovative guy like Lothar pushing the envelop on DSD. I will just give one quotation

 

"for DSD playback, jitter control is really important"

 

Lothar then went on to describe the measures he has taken to get the jitter under control, some of which are pretty dam clever and elegant

 

I think it's going to be some time before another sub US $ 20 K DSD 512 converter sounds as good as Lothars !

 

I have been thinking about Lothar's 1-bit implementation and it seems to me that it is one that will not lend it self well to implemention on a chip. One needs to think about the DSD stream as being an analog signal and treat the bit stream with respect as one would treat an analog signal. This means the tolerances for component values need to be very tight, and that is very difficult and quite expensive to achieve on a ASIC

 

My 2 cents on this is top draw DSD converters need to be built from very tight tolerance discrete components, and we should not be overly optimistic about the sonic quality that can be achieved from a DAC chip, unless one is willing to take the measures that Trinity does to harvest the best of the best from the DAC chip they use.

 

Pink Faun's flagship DAC has no less than 32 DAC chips, a testament Pink Faun's determination to get PCM sounding good, but also a data point on the real world random variability of the key parameters of each DAC chip

 

Apologies for a long and rambling post but hopefully reflective

[YashN]

I have been thinking about Lothar's 1-bit implementation and it seems to me that it is one that will not lend it self well to implemention on a chip. One needs to think about the DSD stream as being an analog signal and treat the bit stream with respect as one would treat an analog signal. This means the tolerances for component values need to be very tight, and that is very difficult and quite expensive to achieve on a ASIC

 

My 2 cents on this is top draw DSD converters need to be built from very tight tolerance discrete components, and we should not be overly optimistic about the sonic quality that can be achieved from a DAC chip, unless one is willing to take the measures that Trinity does to harvest the best of the best from the DAC chip they use.

 

Makes sense to me, and I would add 'high frequency' before 'analogue signal'. It would explain how people are getting great results with chip-less implementations too.

 

As I've often said, DSD really is analogue barring the zero coding which appears odd, and needs simply be output on a pin for the 'D/A' to occur.