Delightful DAC Week :~)

[Boris75]

the last veil .

 

Ah, the last veil. I like it in audiophile land. I like it in R. Strauss' Salome even more.

[Boris75]

For me, Yggy break-in was crazy. Performance was "good" for about 300 hrs (150ish playing music). I've "somewhat" believed in break-in before, but in the past it's been "yeah, I think I hear a difference now". In this case, however, a switch was flipped, taking me instantly to truth of timbre in real space. Never before did a component say "OK, now I'm ready, let's listen to music". Which I am now doing, re-listening to everything.

 

Which DAC did your Yggy replace?

[Wfojas]

For me, Yggy break-in was crazy. Performance was "good" for about 300 hrs (150ish playing music). I've "somewhat" believed in break-in before, but in the past it's been "yeah, I think I hear a difference now". In this case, however, a switch was flipped, taking me instantly to truth of timbre in real space. Never before did a component say "OK, now I'm ready, let's listen to music". Which I am now doing, re-listening to everything.

Someone mentioned that 300 hours was barely under the threshold for Schiit's return policy. Convenient that. AND if you turn it off, you have to preheat it again (I think its for the chips to hit an operating temperature to stabilize), but for slightly less time (7 days?), cause its not burn in.

 

Am burning in a Gungnir MLB right now, and that allegedly takes four days.

[Boris75]

I am surprised that Schiit, who style themselves as no-nonsense, recommend so much burn-in. I would have thought that DAC clocks are fully stable after ~24 hours, so that one day should be enough to get stable sound from the DAC.

[photonblur]

I am surprised that Schiit, who style themselves as no-nonsense, recommend so much burn-in. I would have thought that DAC clocks are fully stable after ~24 hours, so that one day should be enough to get stable sound from the DAC.

 

Boris, the answer is involved and requires a passing

knowledge of Norse mythology and military weapon

guidance systems. ha ha

[Boris75]

boris, the answer is involved and requires a passing

knowledge of norse mythology and military weapon

guidance systems. Ha ha

 

Lol

[Jimmypowder]

Right now after only 3-4 hours of listening to the MB Gungnir it is just as good if not better than my Chord 2qute . I have not heard a Yggy but have one coming in this month .

 

Then I will really do some big comparisons .

[ChrisG]

Someone mentioned that 300 hours was barely under the threshold for Schiit's return policy. Convenient that. AND if you turn it off, you have to preheat it again (I think its for the chips to hit an operating temperature to stabilize), but for slightly less time (7 days?), cause its not burn in.

 

Am burning in a Gungnir MLB right now, and that allegedly takes four days.

 

A good week of keeping Yggy on is about all it really takes. You're right, it's not burn-in...you don't need to pass a signal through the DAC for it to come into its own. According to Mike Moffat (the designer) it has something to do with the chips needing to be at operating temperature for a while. This "warm-up" requirement seems to be reduced as time goes on. Search head-fi posts by Baldr and you can find his explanations.

 

Frankly, Schiit is pretty much a no-BS company and they don't spout audiophool philosophy so if it didn't need to be on all the time to sound its best, they wouldn't recommend it. And, FWIW, I have not heard of anyone not having enough time to get Yggy up to temp prior to the return window closing.

 

As for me, Yggy replaced an Audio Research Ref DAC and it is better in all aspects - transparency, timbre, PRaT etc. The rest of my system is a VTL TL 7.5 III preamp, Hegel h30 amp, Vivid B-1 speakers and a couple of JLAudio f112 subs. My room has also been acoustically treated.

 

It's a very good DAC, regardless of price point.

[Wfojas]

A good week of keeping Yggy on is about all it really takes. You're right, it's not burn-in...you don't need to pass a signal through the DAC for it to come into its own. According to Mike Moffat (the designer) it has something to do with the chips needing to be at operating temperature for a while. This "warm-up" requirement seems to be reduced as time goes on. Search head-fi posts by Baldr and you can find his explanations.

 

Frankly, Schiit is pretty much a no-BS company and they don't spout audiophool philosophy so if it didn't need to be on all the time to sound its best, they wouldn't recommend it. And, FWIW, I have not heard of anyone not having enough time to get Yggy up to temp prior to the return window closing.

 

 

It's a very good DAC, regardless of price point.

 

Oh, no doubt. I say allegedly, cause I get the feeling it will take even longer. Marv (Purrin) who beta'd the prototype does concur that the time goes down over time, but still needing 4 or more days after he turned it off. Not sure how long Gungnir Multibit will take, but I am looking forward to it settling.

 

I've actually only read of one person selling his Yggy, everybody else loves them. And the wait is now to the end of September. And I agree, that's why their name is Schiitt, cause they don't give a rats ass about the bull, stuff.

[gefski]

Which DAC did your Yggy replace?

 

Metrum Octave or Bifrost Uber, in both cases fed by bel canto mlink USB (which I really liked). Now I've set the bel canto aside and am going into Yggy Gen 3 USB.

[toast]

Has anyone with a Yggy or Gumby multibit noticed any SQ improvements using the balance output, as they both are true fully balance DAC design?

[toast]

Forgot to mention in order to take full advantage of the DAC's balance outputs, you really need a preamp and amp that's also a true fully balance design. There's a lot of fake preamps and amps that stick a pair balance inputs with a little added circuitry and call them balance. A true fully balance design doubles the circuitry, one for the left and one for the right channel.

[Blizzard]

Great thread here on the Schiitt. dqwong seems to know his R2R tech pretty good.

 

 

Upcoming R2R DAC: Schitt Yggdrasil - www.hardwarezone.com.sg

[jonmarsh]

Forgot to mention in order to take full advantage of the DAC's balance outputs, you really need a preamp and amp that's also a true fully balance design. There's a lot of fake preamps and amps that stick a pair balance inputs with a little added circuitry and call them balance. A true fully balance design doubles the circuitry, one for the left and one for the right channel.

 

 

There certainly are preamps that take that route, and there are many which take other equally valid or superior routes dealing with balanced inputs and outputs. I know Bruno Putzeys might not agree with you on this one....

 

 

 

I'm familiar with this topology, but then I used to design pro audio gear, and moonlight from time to time on the higher end consumer side of things.

 

There's an old saying that no generality is worth a damn - including this one. If you have specific preamps to not recommend, because you've listened to them and tested them, in comparison to others that meet your criteria, that could be useful - but blanket statement rarely are.

[toast]

Bruno Putzeys is one of a few top class D amp designers. All I'm saying is if you use the single ended RCA outputs from the Yggy or Gumby multibit then you lose the balance circuit design as intended by the designer.

[jonmarsh]

I completely agree with the idea of using the full balanced output, but in my experience (I can quote examples with gear I own) it may not be the preamp that is fully balanced input to output in a conventional sense that will deliver the best results. Different approaches (as shown above, and used in pro gear) do not necessarily use fully balanced circuits in the way that audiophiles understand for the internal construction of the Yggy or my TotalDAC-D1 Dual (which is essentially two fully balanced DAC internally operating at 180 degree phase).

 

A good example would be comparing an Ayre K5 preamp with a Cambridge Audio 851e. The Ayre is well known for not doing quite as well with single ended inputs or outputs, for good reason (BTW, I own one), and it is fully balanced input to output as regards gain circuitry. The Cambridge is one of the few preamps under $2K which has three sets of balanced inputs as well as balanced outputs, and handles the conversion very well- it is over an order of magnitude lower in THD+N than it's predecessor, well under 0.001%, and in my opinion and experience one of the best bargains in preamps you can find. (I own one of them, too).

 

Bruno is probably the best Class D designer in the world, because he's a top analog designer. As he often quips in his AES papers, for any amp, it's an analog world, whatever else you might believe.

 

The nCore designs are completely discrete in the signal path- the only way to get full control over critical aspects of circuitry such as high speed comparators, and MOSFET gate drivers, to optimize their analog performance. The UcD designs are nearly completely discrete, only using very high spec op amps (LM4562) in the instrumentation amplifier style balanced front end- which drives the comparator stage which operates fully balanced also.

 

I'm very curious to see how the final Mola Mola designs turn out. If they stick to they're planned pricing, they won't be inexpensive, but the value proposition should be very high- something the Yggy seems to offer, as does many other somewhat recent and innovative components, like most of the AURALiC offerings and even NAD's M22. Those I can vouch for and recommend based on experience, and their use in my home. The Yggy hasn't quite convinced me I need to find out just how good it actually is, but it's likely that it exceeds my past reference in that price class, the NAD M51. Now, if only Stereophile could do a review...

[Blizzard]

I completely agree with the idea of using the full balanced output, but in my experience (I can quote examples with gear I own) it may not be the preamp that is fully balanced input to output in a conventional sense that will deliver the best results. Different approaches (as shown above, and used in pro gear) do not necessarily use fully balanced circuits in the way that audiophiles understand for the internal construction of the Yggy or my TotalDAC-D1 Dual (which is essentially two fully balanced DAC internally operating at 180 degree phase).

 

A good example would be comparing an Ayre K5 preamp with a Cambridge Audio 851e. The Ayre is well known for not doing quite as well with single ended inputs or outputs, for good reason (BTW, I own one), and it is fully balanced input to output as regards gain circuitry. The Cambridge is one of the few preamps under $2K which has three sets of balanced inputs as well as balanced outputs, and handles the conversion very well- it is over an order of magnitude lower in THD+N than it's predecessor, well under 0.001%, and in my opinion and experience one of the best bargains in preamps you can find. (I own one of them, too).

 

Bruno is probably the best Class D designer in the world, because he's a top analog designer. As he often quips in his AES papers, for any amp, it's an analog world, whatever else you might believe.

 

The nCore designs are completely discrete in the signal path- the only way to get full control over critical aspects of circuitry such as high speed comparators, and MOSFET gate drivers, to optimize their analog performance. The UcD designs are nearly completely discrete, only using very high spec op amps (LM4562) in the instrumentation amplifier style balanced front end- which drives the comparator stage which operates fully balanced also.

 

I'm very curious to see how the final Mola Mola designs turn out. If they stick to they're planned pricing, they won't be inexpensive, but the value proposition should be very high- something the Yggy seems to offer, as does many other somewhat recent and innovative components, like most of the AURALiC offerings and even NAD's M22. Those I can vouch for and recommend based on experience, and their use in my home. The Yggy hasn't quite convinced me I need to find out just how good it actually is, but it's likely that it exceeds my past reference in that price class, the NAD M51. Now, if only Stereophile could do a review...

 

And their latest offering is their best yet. But you must roll your own input stage.

 

[Blizzard]

And their latest offering is their best yet. But you must roll your own input stage.

 

[ATTACH]20782[/ATTACH]

 

Or try to get one of these out of them and upgrade the voltage reg's to the HxR's. Not bad.

 

But not even in the ballpark of my fully discrete pure class A setup.

[toast]

If I my insert a little controversy here and get ready to duck for incoming tomatoes. Bruno Putzeys super expensive Hypec NC1200 Ncore based amps have, as of yet, never gone "mano a mano" against Patrick Bostrom's inexpensive Anaview AMS class D modules.

[bmoura]

Bruno is probably the best Class D designer in the world, because he's a top analog designer. As he often quips in his AES papers, for any amp, it's an analog world, whatever else you might believe.

 

Being a top analog designer helps. Ed Meitner at EMM Labs is another DAC designer who has serious analog design chops.

[Blizzard]

If I my insert a little controversy here and get ready to duck for incoming tomatoes. Bruno Putzeys super expensive Hypec NC1200 Ncore based amps have, as of yet, never gone "mano a mano" against Patrick Bostrom's inexpensive Anaview AMS class D modules.

 

I haven't seen a comparison either. But the NC500's are their best amp modules of the bunch, and they are not super expensive. Here's a commercial amp that uses them:

 

Taranis Stereo Power Amplifier

 

 

But keep in mind the input stages and power supplies play a large role in the whole picture.

[toast]

The less expensive Hypec NC400 module has been put up against the new Anaview AMS1000-2600 module several time by Europeans DIYers and in each time the AMS module has out performed the NC400.

 

As to the NCore 500 module inside the Merrill Taranis, these are lower cost trickle down NC1200 derived technology but not better SQ wise than the premium mono part NC1200.

[misterspense]

Could you please keep the comments about DAC's, you're wandering off to power amp modules.

[toast]

This thread was dead anyway, that is until Computeraudiophile does a review on the Yggy, which is going to take some time. So no harm in going off topic a bit.

[Ric Schultz]

Here comes da tweak! The Yggy is great stock but with simple mods can be much, much better. Please see my webpage for details....these mods are all DIY.....I make no money doing this. Schiit mod

Naturally, some will feel this is crazy.....please, can we keep it sane! I repeat here: Use an audiophile fuse if you think bypassing it is dangerous. These mods were listened to one at a time on a serious system....all these mods improved the sound. The person with the Yggy is going to send me his DAC soon and I will attempt to put my own zero feedback output stage/regulators/bigger transformer/better diodes on it for even better sound. For sure the stock Yggy is really good......however, there is way more potential here. And since this DAC is not outrageously priced.....doing mods on it is sane. No one is going to buy a $10,000 DAC and do mods on it....no one. Getting anyone with enough balls to even open the Yggy is hard though......I don't expect much love for what I have posted here. I am just a guy who likes to see what can be done.....pushing the envelope. Most people are just happy with stock toys. Me....never.