ECdesigns

[yogibear]

19 minutes ago, Khronos said:

You seem like someone who reads Glow in the Dark Audio as well. 😄

 

I admit I don't have experience with vintage drivers (I have some Coral Holey baskets awaiting for when I buy a soldering iron, though), but based off from your YouTube videos, the sound is very nice! The high efficiency must also make it so realistic sound levels are breezy on the amp, how good are they with large scale orchestra?

 

Regardless, it's nice to see somebody finally starting to achieve their nirvana (Guess all there's left is fiddling with the electronics' circuits and driver combination).

 

Are you by any chance acquainted with the work of J.C Morrison? The technicalities go over my head, but his circuits are masterful.

https://www.labjc.com/

 

[yogibear]

Kevin from glowinthedarkaudio and I are like in a parallel world. FRs in OB driven by tube amps, yes. Independent discoveries….

High efficiency is an advantage but despite, biggest factor is distortion…. That should be lowest, be it speakers or amps.  My tube amp designs are focused around lowest IMD. 
 

Thanks for sharing JC Morrison page. Will explore and learn…

 

[M_audio]

17 hours ago, Khronos said:

 

I understand. Currently I'm a fair bit of a Tool fan so I doubt I'll have perfect hearing by the time I'm 30.

 

My main listening is on a set of LSA HP-2s modified by JM Audio supported by an Audio Envy Tonekraft cable. To my ears, they lack ultimate detail and they are definitely not neutral, but back in May, when I went to Pacific Audio Fest and tried several Summit-Fi Headphones and Amps, I can say the only one that could match it or surpass it where it is important to me are the ZMF Caldera. In the words of the guy at a certain headphone amp table: "These are... very holographic." The PowerDAC BX takes this to the next level. I'm reading on speaker building and eventually hope to make my own custom loudspeakers with the ESS AMT, a clone of the Altec 755, and series first order filters.

 

I'm not much of a basshead. I say Bass as I've found dry, fast bass is a good measure to listen for transient quality. I understand why you say "Satri This, Satri that". I haven't plunged deeper into SCL's offerings and I only own a CAP-1003. Personally where it is important it to me it is a near-perfect amp. I can understand why you would say it is flawed, since it has a sound that can hardly synergize with anything less than perfect. At least with my Hiby RS2 and Audio Envy Wiring and LSA HP-2s I found excellent synergy, though the DAC was definitely holding  everything back. Which is why I plunged on the POWERDAC-BX. It's a dry sound, but it is excellent, there's a holistic way everything comes together. My Audio Envy RCAs are on their way,  so I only used some Anticables which definitely colored the sound a fair bit. Many would call these wires fairly uncolored and given how immediate their flaws came through I think this means the system's fairly transparent.

 

As a side note, I preferred the SCL to several well-regarded, mid to high four figure amplifiers. Pride of ownership? Bias? Maybe. All I know is that I dislike the high frequency ringing from negative feedback.

 

What's a good digital source on your opinion?

 

But let me disgress, I've definitely hijacked the thread a good bit at this point.😣

Yea Satri circutit seems to be at its best with headphones, but even then underpowered for some!
 
I used Bakoon amp with with Mosaic T16 DAC and while the sound was special and later when i got 1st Watt F7 it reminded me a bit of Bakoon, with the difference that Bakoon was just too fast. It didnt let me live in the moment. When i perceived the musical intention, it already was on its way to other tune, and other and other. Never contemplated on the moment.
So there was something with Satri transients, probly decay was shortened. Also very special highs, but in the long term a bit too much energy. I noticed this pattern also with other owners and different speakers.

 

[Khronos]

9 hours ago, M_audio said:

Yea Satri circutit seems to be at its best with headphones, but even then underpowered for some!
 
I used Bakoon amp with with Mosaic T16 DAC and while the sound was special and later when i got 1st Watt F7 it reminded me a bit of Bakoon, with the difference that Bakoon was just too fast. It didnt let me live in the moment. When i perceived the musical intention, it already was on its way to other tune, and other and other. Never contemplated on the moment.
So there was something with Satri transients, probly decay was shortened. Also very special highs, but in the long term a bit too much energy. I noticed this pattern also with other owners and different speakers.

 

 

Let's agree to disagree on this topic, perception of audio is subjective after all (as you've mentioned before).

 

Considering your preferences, and assuming you are not upgrading to the PowerDAC-SX or variant if the audio bug hits again, I think you should have both Lejonklou and Sparkler audio on your short list. Especially the former given your enjoyment of the Sparkos. Again, though, whether you can audition either is location dependent.

[tapatrick]

On 12/17/2023 at 5:42 PM, M_audio said:

Xactly my experience!

And your new PowerDAC SX should be even better than the prior version.
But i was also surprised, didnt xpect this level of transparency and speed and naturalness. Somethin' Else album now sounds pretty close to what i had with my 5k analogue system (fully balanced from MC to the amp). In some aspects even better - the groove factor with PowerDAC is even better and instruments are clearer. 

Why should bass be light  😆

Yes indeed.  The SX is really special all in one box!  I loved the Fractal Dac (with the U192ETL) but was tempted to make my system super simple and say goodbye to tweaking.
The SX really works magic with the Omega super alnicos. And doesn’t seem to mind what feeds it. So it doesn’t get much simpler than this.  I enjoyed the journey to get here but I can say this is my last purchase. So glad I trusted the  reports of the new models. 
Regarding the bass comment, I read some comments about bass being light with the powerdacs, so was responding to that but it’s not that important. 

[matthias]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:01 PM, tapatrick said:

Will be very curious to see if the Memory Player continues to make any difference or not.

Please, can you shed some light on this point?

Any comparisons to Macbook?

Thanks

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, matthias said:

Please, can you shed some light on this point?

Any comparisons to Macbook?

Thanks

Here you go. The memory player has USB out, so I compared this with USB out of my old Macbook pro - both through the usb to toslink U192ETL that I have to feed the SX. There is no difference that I can detect streaming Tidal. That wasn't the case before and its because of the PowerDAC SX. Convinces me that the DAC has always been the weakest link. All the tweaking, soldering, making and swopping cables, power supplies, etc over the last decade was fun but the elephant in the room was the DAC all along. I still find it hard to accept that the source does not really matter, the conversion from digital to analogue seems to be everything. EC designs have cracked it in my opinion - and the amplification in the SX really adds to the magic.

 

There is so much headroom and range with the amplification. Even the volume is difficult to describe compared to other amps I've had. The sound is so clean it just gets MORE at higher volumes. According to their manual, it lists the 24 steps of volume output - from only a mere 179mV at zero to 11.31V at step 24 (max). As my speakers are full range and sensitive, moderate listening into 8ohms is in the range of settings 10-12, which is only 1mV to 1.42mV output (82mW to 161mW). The max I've gone up to is 18 with toslink from a TV through the system, which is enough and equivalent to only 1.29W output. Some recordings are adequate at very low volume settings. I've not had this range of amplification sensitivity before - and crystal clarity due to the absence of distortion.

 

I've really lost interest in comparisons. Toslink out of the Macbook pro into the SX (or toslink out of CD player) is my preference now as its super simple, no more headless, management of the beloved but quirky memory player. I use a simple 3 way toslink splitter/switch to feed the various toslink sources into the SX. I've also tried without this switch, swopping the toslink input directly into the back of the SX and doesn't make any difference. I havn't even bothered trying different toslink cables...

 

Seriously though, the airiness, depth, sweetness, range and transparency on good recordings is breathtaking - even after several days listening. You really get to hear into the fullness of the recordings, so that's where my attention is now, whether streaming or from CD.

[Muzikmann]

Taptrick! Thanks for the positive feedback!  It's nice to know that a Macbook pro and the Memory Player sound the same on the SX.  ECDesigns have achieved something remarkable as this will save me money on a music server.  I really like the simplicity of the SX, but I am looking at the Qualio IQ speakers which are 89db into 4ohms, so I am thinking the RX with a dedicated amplifier would work better.

[tapatrick]

9 minutes ago, Muzikmann said:

Taptrick! Thanks for the positive feedback!  It's nice to know that a Macbook pro and the Memory Player sound the same on the SX.  ECDesigns have achieved something remarkable as this will save me money on a music server.  I really like the simplicity of the SX, but I am looking at the Qualio IQ speakers which are 89db into 4ohms, so I am thinking the RX with a dedicated amplifier would work better.

The SX gives up to max 14W at 4ohms.  I’d recommend considering it, but only if that would be enough power for you.  

[Khronos]

7 hours ago, tapatrick said:

The SX gives up to max 14W at 4ohms.  I’d recommend considering it, but only if that would be enough power for you.  

The IQs are said to love power, though. So it's a case of think less PowerDAC SX and more Schiit Tyr levels of power.

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, Khronos said:

The IQs are said to love power, though. So it's a case of think less PowerDAC SX and more Schiit Tyr levels of power.

Crikey, 350w into 4 ohms. Should heat the room in winter...

[botrytis]

29 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Crikey, 350w into 4 ohms. Should heat the room in winter...

 

Just need a Class A or tube amp for that.

[Muzikmann]

15 hours ago, tapatrick said:

The SX gives up to max 14W at 4ohms.  I’d recommend considering it, but only if that would be enough power for you.

I would if it wasn't for the IQ speakers I am considering - I think 14W would be anemic for the IQ's which I have read loves lots of power.  If I change my mind on speakers, I wouldn't hesitate to try the SX.

[Muzikmann]

8 hours ago, Khronos said:

The IQs are said to love power, though. So it's a case of think less PowerDAC SX and more Schiit Tyr levels of power.

Yes, hence my consideration for the RX with a dedicated power amplifier.

[Khronos]

7 hours ago, Muzikmann said:

I would if it wasn't for the IQ speakers I am considering - I think 14W would be anemic for the IQ's which I have read loves lots of power.  If I change my mind on speakers, I wouldn't hesitate to try the SX.

This one's going to be a doozy, especially since there's a to of options for high power Solid State. Good luck!

[Muzikmann]

Yeah, moving to the Atma-Sphere Class D.

[tapatrick]

17 hours ago, Muzikmann said:

Yes, hence my consideration for the RX with a dedicated power amplifier.

It’s an interesting question and exploration then as to what combo of amp and speakers to add after the RX.
 

After the SX the only consideration that could make any difference are the speakers. And obviously they need to be sensitive due to the power output.

 

I don’t know the technicalities of the SX but the amplification is special as is obviously the digital conversion.
 

My speakers only need 2 watts to sing. And that choice would likely also depend on the kind of music you prefer to listen to.  
 

I wanted to share that I have found a happy solution to a very long and relatively expensive search. Money that would have made more sense putting in my pension! Heyho. 

 

Music preferences have some bearing on speaker / amplification choice and my preferences are intimate guitar singer/songwriters (not only but mostly) or small jazz groups. I like to really hear and feel the soul and emotion of the music with no digital artefacts to distract from the enjoyment. 
 

Other music, ie large classical pieces or rock also sound really excellent especially if there is a large and deep soundstage. It’s just that I found myself drawn to finding a system that would produce a truly convincing, natural sounding human voice, because of the enjoyment and  intimacy this brings.
 

This has been solved in my opinion and because of this it has an obvious impact on all other areas of the SQ. No doubt the Omega Super Alnicos play a part in this solution and in an ideal world it would be interesting to try other speakers. 
 

I have a pair of subwoofers that I’ve not had time to test out yet - or even if they will work with the SX. 

 

In my humble opinion there is no need with this offering from EC Designs to spend time and money on testing different expensive sources, ram chips, capacitors, cables, black magic disks (yes I’ve been there) etc etc. Unless that is your pleasure of course.  
 

One thing to mention is that for the purists  the volume ‘steps’ on the SX are not smooth as in a usual volume knob, and probably not incremental enough. This doesn’t bother me as I don’t change volume much and a small price to pay for this kind of SQ excellence and enjoyment. 

Of course as always YMMV.  
 

PS the EC designs are now on (pre) order in the UK at Elise Audio (info thanks to Hopkins over on What’s Best Forum) and are slightly cheaper than buying direct from Holland as I did. Although if you do not want to wait it’s probably quicker still to order direct from EC Designs. 

[Michael L]

Good to hear EC Designs are now selling at a UK dealer. I've just had a look at their website. Close to pulling the trigger on the RX which I think is worth the extra ££ for the volume control - so useful for headphones where a bit perfect signal is needed so cannot be controlled on - in my case - the MacBook

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, Michael L said:

Good to hear EC Designs are now selling at a UK dealer. I've just had a look at their website. Close to pulling the trigger on the RX which I think is worth the extra ££ for the volume control - so useful for headphones where a bit perfect signal is needed so cannot be controlled on - in my case - the MacBook

Yes, The SX and RX both have the IR remote volume control. RX outputs max 1.7V and the SX supplies max 11.31V output.

I'd reference back to the EC manuals as I'm not sure the copy on the Elise website is right for each product.

[Khronos]

Pics or it didn't happen (Pardon the terrible stand, I'm still planning around the furniture and this is what I had laying around).

 

Currently having issues with a high-end USB cable I ordered, so I'm making do with a Walmart Brand printer cable.

 

Needless to say the UAPP -> USC-1001 -> ECDesigns PowerDAC BX -> CAP-1003 -> LSA HP-2 JMs is ruthless about an el cheapo printer cable in the chain. (My poor PRAT 😟)

 

From there on, I am happy to report that, once I get a proper cable (and maybe a Ultrasonic Filter for the ECD, wonder how much will Burn-in help with the nyquist) it's Digital Endgame. Thick as a Brick has never sound this good!

 

Edit: High-Frequency noise may be source dependent. Experimenting.

 

[Khronos]

30 hours or so after.

Either it's placebo, or placing the Herbie's Supersonic Stabilizer (round gray disk on top of the Amp) on top of the output is somehow taking out the noise.

Weird...

[matthias]

On 12/18/2023 at 6:48 AM, Khronos said:

A shot in the dark, but I wonder if it's because the Powerdac SX is more regulating the signal as is without taking into consideration any extra electrical draw the speaker might have? In the end it's by design a bunch of switches and resistors between a load and a linear power supply, meaning it's regulating rather than supplying. It lacks the voltage to support bass trasients if you listen closely to Stephane Ls videos on Youtube (the PowerDAC S also seemed to suffer from this, though at a lesser level.)

 

Though that also makes me wonder why it wouldn't be drawing extra power from the PSU (keyword: regulator,  maybe?) as it would with something that has active devices in it. The PowerDAC BX definitely does not soften the transients after all.

Interesting thoughts,

I am wondering how stable the PS of the Powerdac SX is when the output is 10W at 8 Ohms and 16W at 2 Ohms.

[Khronos]

8 hours ago, matthias said:

Interesting thoughts,

I am wondering how stable the PS of the Powerdac SX is when the output is 10W at 8 Ohms and 16W at 2 Ohms.

It sounds plenty stable, not strained as if it was clipping. More like it does not want to give more volume (somehow) since clipping is like a hard stop at the dynamics.

 

It could also be Stephane's speakers, since they are drivers meant to go in a vented box driven open baffle. Tapatrick has way better optimized speakers, perhaps he could fill us in regarding dynamics? (I know for a fact Omegas are extremely dynamic by nature, almost on the level of horn speakers. So if he feels they are lacking in the dynamics then it's probably the way the PowerDAC is designed, which might prompt ECDesigns to make an external buffer for it).

 

On 12/21/2023 at 2:04 AM, tapatrick said:

My speakers only need 2 watts to sing. And that choice would likely also depend on the kind of music you prefer to listen to. 

How good is the Combo with dynamic music? (1812, Thick as a Brick, Akira OST, etc)

[Varinder]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:25 AM, Khronos said:

 

I understand. Currently I'm a fair bit of a Tool fan so I doubt I'll have perfect hearing by the time I'm 30.

 

My main listening is on a set of LSA HP-2s modified by JM Audio supported by an Audio Envy Tonekraft cable. To my ears, they lack ultimate detail and they are definitely not neutral, but back in May, when I went to Pacific Audio Fest and tried several Summit-Fi Headphones and Amps, I can say the only one that could match it or surpass it where it is important to me are the ZMF Caldera. In the words of the guy at a certain headphone amp table: "These are... very holographic." The PowerDAC BX takes this to the next level. I'm reading on speaker building and eventually hope to make my own custom loudspeakers with the ESS AMT, a clone of the Altec 755, and series first order filters.

 

I'm not much of a basshead. I say Bass as I've found dry, fast bass is a good measure to listen for transient quality. I understand why you say "Satri This, Satri that". I haven't plunged deeper into SCL's offerings and I only own a CAP-1003. Personally where it is important it to me it is a near-perfect amp. I can understand why you would say it is flawed, since it has a sound that can hardly synergize with anything less than perfect. At least with my Hiby RS2 and Audio Envy Wiring and LSA HP-2s I found excellent synergy, though the DAC was definitely holding  everything back. Which is why I plunged on the POWERDAC-BX. It's a dry sound, but it is excellent, there's a holistic way everything comes together. My Audio Envy RCAs are on their way,  so I only used some Anticables which definitely colored the sound a fair bit. Many would call these wires fairly uncolored and given how immediate their flaws came through I think this means the system's fairly transparent.

 

As a side note, I preferred the SCL to several well-regarded, mid to high four figure amplifiers. Pride of ownership? Bias? Maybe. All I know is that I dislike the high frequency ringing from negative feedback.

 

What's a good digital source on your opinion?

 

But let me disgress, I've definitely hijacked the thread a good bit at this point.😣

Could you share the link for buying Altec 755 clone .. And have you compared it with original Altec 755A and if so what’s your take please 

[tapatrick]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:44 AM, Khronos said:

It sounds plenty stable, not strained as if it was clipping. More like it does not want to give more volume (somehow) since clipping is like a hard stop at the dynamics.

 

It could also be Stephane's speakers, since they are drivers meant to go in a vented box driven open baffle. Tapatrick has way better optimized speakers, perhaps he could fill us in regarding dynamics? (I know for a fact Omegas are extremely dynamic by nature, almost on the level of horn speakers. So if he feels they are lacking in the dynamics then it's probably the way the PowerDAC is designed, which might prompt ECDesigns to make an external buffer for it).

 

How good is the Combo with dynamic music? (1812, Thick as a Brick, Akira OST, etc)

The Dynamics are super. I don't tend to focus on one aspect of the SQ as the SX has a holistic quality that is very satisfying but I did try those pieces of music for you guys... :). I tried with 1812 and Jethro Tull and there is no problem with dynamics. The cannons in 1812 are a real shock!

 

As mentioned I think the pairing of speakers with the SX is of utmost importance. You really need a sensitive speaker to benefit from the power rating and the distortion free sound from the SX - mine are 94.5db. Would love to try 100db versions - ie Finale Audio’s Kensington Speakers, but that is a whole world of experimentation I'm not going down...

 

What I notice most is the quality of recordings and how different they can be in. The bass (if it is in the recording) is enough with the super alnicos and I have also tried 2 Rel subwoofers that I plug in sometimes. This extends the low end nicely when set properly, making the sound more immersive.