ECdesigns

[bodiebill]

I have been reading this thread and the ECD website with great interest and am considering to get myself a U192ETL usb transport or UPL96ETL usb-stick transport.

 

My initial preference was the UPL96ETL as this appears to be a purer solution and I am already used an attached to playing network-less (and usb-less) from a standalone SD transport for which I fill an SD card ad hoc with wav (and DSD256) files. However, I became reluctant when I noticed the requirements for tagging the files with the UPL software; this seems to me too much much of a hassle.

 

As an alternative I am thinking of:

 

wtfplay standalone PC => usb cable => U192ETL => ElectroTos cable => Denafrips Terminator

 

Would this work?

 

I already tried the TosLink input on the Terminator and it is the best sound by far I have have heard with TosLink.

 

P.S. A layman's summary of the ECD principles, philosophy and possible setups would be welcome. The makers' brilliant minds may benefit the products but do not always benefit the readability of the product descriptions.

[bodiebill]

Thanks!

 

27 minutes ago, hopkins said:

- with the U192ETL, I do not think there will be any benefit in using wtfplay, but of course you can test that for yourself when you get it. I tried wyfplay with the current U192ETL and heard no benefit.

 

Do you mean no benefit compared to using the wtfplay PC directly into another DAC?

Or compared to using U192ETL with another source?

 

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- my personal feeling, at this point, is that the combination of the U192ETL and the Fractal DAC is going to outperform the Terminator with the same source. I ageee the Terminator does have a good toslink input. I heard the Terminator on many occasions, and a few times with the previous UPL. A lot of the increase in sound quality in the current units comes from the new Fractal DAC, and the use of the new protocol between the Fractal DAC and the source. By using either source (U192ETL or UPL96ETL) with the Terminator, I do not see how it could reach the same level. Of course there is no way of knowing for sure until a comparison is done.

 

Apart from SQ there is also the Terminator's versatility compared to the ECD's limitations, offering more possibilities to compare different setups, with more file formats.

 

Currently an SDTrans384 SD transport is on its way to me. Looking only at SQ, I would then be interested in this comparison:

 

SDTrans384 => I2S => HDMI/LVDS cable => Terminator

UPL96ETL => ElectroTos => Fractal DAC

 

However, we are talking about two esoteric products (SDTrans and ECD) so it is not very likely that someone will compare these setups any time soon -- unless it is me 🙂

 

[bodiebill]

53 minutes ago, hopkins said:

To clarify, with the U192ETL + Fractal DAC, I see no benefit in using wtfplay as a source as opposed to using a basic PC as a source.

 

Clear, thanks. And that is due to proper isolation from the source I guess.

[bodiebill]

39 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I have been running a similar modified SD card player which is highly rated on here:

https://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4541&start=160#p87293

SDCard Player > I2S  > HDMI/LVDS > PS Audio Junior DAC. I found far superior to any other inputs I have tried, with big reduction in the 'digital' sound so I am looking forward (and have high hopes) to see whether this development from ECD can improve on this...

 

Yes, read that also. Though much cheaper (and needing some DIY skills), it seems to be in the same league as the SDTrans384.

 

(In the meantime I am using a HXMelody HX500, which is already very good with SD card and I2S. See below.)

 

[bodiebill]

17 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Best to leave all this to the experts and wait for listening tests to confirm. 

 

Agreed. Endless tweaking by laymen like ourselves cannot compete with simple but brilliant design decisions for the main building blocks.

After years of tweaking, my recent adage is: 'to omit' rather than 'to tame'. And that is exactly why the ECD products appeal to me.  

[bodiebill]

I just ordered an U192ETL to initially use with my Terminator. Who knows what is next... 🙂

[bodiebill]

5 minutes ago, Huubster said:

Let me guess, a Fractal DAC..? 😇

 

Are you a clairvoyant?

Struggling to exercise discipline 😐

[bodiebill]

13 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I just ordered an U192ETL to initially use with my Terminator. Who knows what is next... 🙂

 

From John Brown I understand that the U192ETL will be shipped coming Monday!

 

I think it is wise not to order the DA96ETF (Fractal DAC) yet. Scenario's:

 

(1) PC + U192ETL + Terminator TosLink sounds worse than SDTrans384 + Terminator I2S
Then I have less confidence to buy the Fractal DAC as it should correct that delta.

 

(2) PC + U192ETL + Terminator TosLink sounds as good as SDTrans384 + Terminator I2S

Then I might use both setups. At least then I have added the possibility to conveniently play from my PC/music library via usb. And I would still be able to play 24/192 and DSD.

 

(3) PC + U192ETL + Terminator TosLink sounds better than SDTrans384 + Terminator I2S

Then I could switch to the U192ETL altogether and sell the other setup. I would loose the ability to play 24/192 and DSD but this could be compensated for by the overall SQ improvement.

 

So in scenario (2) I might, and in scenario (3) I certainly would, add the Fractal DAC.

[bodiebill]

22 hours ago, hopkins said:

I understand à few more parts are on their way before they can build the new batches, and offer the upgrade.

 

Today I received the U192ETL converter and an SVC24 passive preamp.

 

According to John of ECdesigns my U192ETL is "the new version with band-limiter circuit".

 

I really like the preamp.

For the U192ETL (which I am using with a Terminator) I do not want to say anything hasty, so I will take some time for comparisons...

[bodiebill]

41 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Cool. Nice to be living in Holland 😊

 

Yes, it also brings some advantages 🙂.

 

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Its a shame you don't have the Fractal DAC as well, I am sure a lot of people would have been interested by that, but more importantly, since you took the plunge with ECD, aren't you going to be curious about it yourself?

 

That would be nice indeed! But see my previous post: if the PC + U192 + Terminator will lag behind SDTrans384 + Terminator in terms of SQ, I will be reluctant to take the plunge. An analytical mind would conclude from that that PC + U192 cannot compete with the SDTrans. Of course, a holistic mind would allow for the possibility of synergy... So borrowing a Fractal from someone would be nice, to hear for myself...

 

With my previous previous DAC, a Lampizator, I used to upsample everything to DSD256 as its PCM circuit was below par. With the Terminator, which has a glorious PCM circuit, I only upsample DSD64 to DSD256. But I am far from dogmatic in this regard. I find it strange when people say "This PCM-only DAC is not for me as I listen to DSD." Why do they listen to DSD? I guess because they like how it sounds. But what if a PCM DAC sounds as nice or even better? That is not impossible, is it?

What I mean is: I do not think one format is always better than the other; it is about the device-format combo.

 

Quote

What player are you going to be using with the U192?

 

Many choices: wtfplay and/or Aplayer console (Linux), XXHighend or UPplay (Windows). I could even try JRiver which I use as database only.

 

By the way, I was pleasantly surprised I could play DSD64 with wtfplay through the U192. DoP I guess.

 

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As for the SVC, it took some time for me to warm to it, but I find it actually performs shockingly well in my system. I had their previous passive preamp model, and was not 100% convinced by it. Its strange how things work sometimes. 

 

The SVC24 sounds very much like my DIY Stereo Coffee LDR passive preamp, another minimal design. I find the SVC a tad more relaxed, so it is a keeper. Also because I do not have to think about LPSU's anymore 🙂

[bodiebill]

8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

@bodiebill thanks for your answers. Seems you can test the U192 with various sources, and confirm (or not) its "source independance" - I assume that aspect should not vary based on the  DAC being used? As long as the various sources are bit perfect, the claim is that the results should be pretty much identical. 

 

Indeed, curious about alleged source independence also... Will report back on my (subjective) findings in due time...

[bodiebill]

14 minutes ago, hopkins said:

We'll probably never know. ECD is too "low end" for Taiko Extreme owners to bother testing 

 

Low price you mean? 😊

 

Some may argue that Taiko Extreme owners go to great lengths at even greater expense to tame things that could also be avoided to start with, such as network, usb or high amperage.

 

Anyway I will at least compare different players, using my optimized PC, and report back...

[bodiebill]

Yes, step by step, rather than lofty generalizations.

 

For instance I plan a simple comparison, to find out whether different usb cables between the PC and the U192 make a difference SQ wise. Say stock vs Lush², or with or without ISO Regen. This will give some information on the U192's immunity to noise.

 

But maybe someone already tried this? 

[bodiebill]

14 minutes ago, Norton said:

... compare the updated U192 with the UPL96 into the DAC96.  In terms of  detail retrieval, naturalness of tone and unfatiguing  listening,

 

This comparison would be one way to assess the U192's source independence.

If the U192 sounds the same (or as good) with a PC as source as the UPL96 with its own usb stick, that would be something.

I would have to hear it with my own ears, before believing that the two devices are 'indistinguishable' as reported earlier.

[bodiebill]

On 7/14/2020 at 4:06 PM, bodiebill said:

I really like the preamp.

For the U192ETL (which I am using with a Terminator) I do not want to say anything hasty, so I will take some time for comparisons...

 

Based on my first impressions of the U192ETL (and SVC24) I also ordered the DA96ETF.

@hopkins should be happy 🙂

I still need some time to carefully compare all options (quite many now with the SD transports, Terminator and ECdesigns converter and DAC), but will report back here.

[bodiebill]

Ok, here goes, but only first impressions...

 

Like @Huubster I tried different usb cables with the U192. In my case a stock usb cable versus Lush² => linearly powered ISO Regen => Lush. The difference was notable, but less obvious than without the U192. For the comparisons below, I kept the latter. 

 

I also compared foobar2000 (Windows on SATA drive) and wtfplay (Linux on usb stick) running on the same PC. The former was mediocre, the latter much more musical.

 

So the U192 seems to add SOME but not FULL immunity to PC pollution.

 

Setups compared:

A PC/Windows foobar2000 => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator
B PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => Terminator
C PC/Linux wtfplay => usb => U192ETL => ElectroTos => Terminator
D PC => network => HXMelody HX500 UPnP => I2S => Terminator
E HXMelody HX500 SD card => I2S => Terminator

 

SQ (relaxation, resolution, analogue character, holographic experience) to my ears was as follows: E > D >= C >> B >> A and shows the merit of the U192 by itself (i.e. without the Fractal DAC). C gives me the best sound I ever had using a PC source. The HX500 with I2S still wins, but C is getting close and I do like its smooth sound signature.

 

Hence my curiosity to take the next step and try C with the Fractal DAC (on order) to compare this with the Terminator.

 

Such luxury, being able to make these comparisons, also with the SDTrans384 on its way from Japan. I am betting I will end up with two setups, one (Spartan, minimalist, inconvenient) for really serious listening and one (versatile, user-friendly) for browsing. It does however look like it that the SQ gap between these two is narrowing.

 

To be continued...

[bodiebill]

27 minutes ago, hopkins said:

... and am curious to see if you will reach the same conclusions regarding "immunity" with the FractalDac (though my understanding is that this would not be linked to the DAC at all, but who knows...).

 

As I understand this alleged immunity should be the result of the U192 + Fractal DAC combination, where the former is a prerequisite for the latter to make any sound at all. So not sure what you mean to say in brackets.

 

27 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Reading over John Brown's explanations - for example recently on his DIYAudio thread, he states that the U192 offers "band limited (20MHz) output for minimum noise injection into the DAC". So "minimum" not being zero, I assume you could still hear differences - but then why would the U192 with a non-audiophile PC (simple USB cable) be "undistinguishable" from the UPL96 (quoting him), which itself has very low noise  ? Comparing previous versions of the UPL always offered better performance (to my and others' ears) than USB sources - whether wtfplay, or other sophisticated sources... so that is not consistent - or is my reasoning flawed ? Many questions still !

 

Valid questions. For the reasons you mention I expect full immunity to be too good to be true, but we will find out...

 

Quote

Small question - when using Foobar2000 did you bypass Windows audio, using Asio4All, for example, to make sure playback is "bit perfect"  ?

 

No, I did not go through that trouble.

What Windows player SW could you recommend? I might try XXHighEnd. But to be honest, I am relieved I got rid of Windows (an OS that needs a lot of 'taming') for audio playback.

(I still use Windows on a control PC with JRiver as database, or with UPPlay/Minimserver when I use the HX500 as UPnP renderer.) 

[bodiebill]

9 hours ago, hopkins said:

One small thing to keep in mind, is that the sound card (ECD U192) will be used in "exclusive" mode, and if you want to alternate between different apps you cannot have them open at the same time. This would not be a problem using your windows PC to communicate with the HX500 however.

 

This would be no problem as my UPnP setup is

 

(1) Windows control PC with UPPlay and Minimserver (not in audio room, powerful i9, formerly heavy lifting HQPlayer embedded server; this is also used for format conversions, JRiver database etc.)

=>

(2) audio PC (in audio room, small footprint & low power, Linux or Windows ad lib)

=>

(3) DAC

 

Better sounding is the one box setup with just (2) => (3) where the PC has local files (preferably copied to Optane nvme disk, SATA disabled).

 

And even better is the minimal setup with SD transport and I2S.

 

These setups show increasing SQ and decreasing convenience.

 

This may seem a bit off topic, but I hope the ECdesigns gear can overhaul this layout by conjoining SQ and convenience.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

I completely agree with Norton concerning the value of the Fractal DAC and don't think it is really worthwhile speculating too much about the U192 performance in another context. 

 

Still I find it encouraging that the U192ETL apparently already makes a positive difference on its own, i.e. without the Fractal DAC.

[bodiebill]

20 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Yes, I did not mean to discourage you or imply that they were not useful. You did note less effect of the source - of course its disappointing you don't immediately notice "full immunity" (which as ECD pointed out will probably never be fully achieved), but lets see what happens with the Fractal DAC thrown in there. I'm also curious to have your feedback on the comparison to the Terminator. 

 

It was encouraging rather than discouraging 🙂

After this initial improvement with the U192ETL alone I can look forward to a further one with the Fractal DAC. I will report back when I have it...

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, Huubster said:

 

@hopkins: I think your U192 is an important test case for them, I understood your U192 is received and already upgraded, and will be the first 'modified' version to be delivered.

 

Not sure about that. From my correspondence with John (translated from Dutch):

"The U192ETL modification regards a band-limiter circuit that decreases PC disturbance (that enters the U192ETL via USB) with a factor of approx. 250 before the signal is passed on to the DAC. Thereby the source dependance and related degrading should just about be solved."

 

And upon my question whether I received the new version:

"De U192ETL that you received is the new version with band-limiter circuit."

 

I will check with John in due time.

[bodiebill]

Guess you are right! In any case, I am looking forward to receiving the Fractal DAC beginning of next week 🙂

[bodiebill]

38 minutes ago, Michael L said:

From my reading of comments on the new EC Designs products I get the impression that they offer very good value for money. I wonder though if expections are perhaps a little unreasonable. Providing a streaming source from a device costing as much as a small car will I'm sure deliver some increase in SQ.

Comparisons can kill satisfaction in hifi as I'm sure we've all found.

As good as John's engineering is, these products are built to a certain budget - happily one that many normal mortals can afford. Maybe at twice the price some further minor improvements could be made to filter nasties from streaming sources.

It's all about diminishing returns though isn't it.

 

Listening impressions are key here. Assumptions like these, made to reduce cognitive dissonance, are less valuable in my opinion. I would rather be surprised than confirmed.

[bodiebill]

Just a quick note: today I received the DA96ETF. Right out of the box I hear a very natural and effortless sound when combined with with the U192ETL converter and SVC24 volume control. 'Analogue' is much misused but in place here. Best SQ I have had so far with PC as a source. I will report back in due time when I have compared different setups (Terminator, SD transports etc.). But by now I do understand what all the buzz here is about! And I like how John and his team stay relatively silent, i.e. avoid commercial pep talk, and let others decide for themselves. Best approach in the long run :-).

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, hopkins said:

 

My upgraded U192 is on its way home, so I should report back soon (a few days).

 

Curious to hear more! 🙂

 

Quote

 

@bodiebill, curious to hear more! 

 

I will soon leave for a short trip, until Sunday, so it will probably be next week.

 

First impressions, in addition to what I mentioned above:

The U192ETL/DA96ETF combination is not source independent. This is what I expected and neither do I see this as a problem.

I now have stellar SQ with (1) a minimalist SATA-less PC with a small Optane NVme drive fed by a Paul Hynes SR4 19V running wtfplay from a usb stick.

I also tried (2) playing from an external usb HD (with 5V LPSU) and then (3) streaming to the same PC running Gentooplayer mpd/upmpdcli, but in both latter cases SQ is not good enough. (Yes, we are getting spoiled.)

So I do have great SQ with  PC source, but only when I detach the network and the external usb drive. This means there is some inconvenience as I need to copy files to the Optane drive. On the other hand this enables me to convert flac to wav while copying (I am using xrecode3)  which gives a slight improvement.

This setup seems to equal the stand-alone HXMelody HX500 SD transport with the Terminator. Of course sound signatures are slightly different. More about that later.

 

@Norton I am already imagining the ultimate battle between the SDTrans384 (mine has just cleared customs, so I hope to pick it up soon), the new U192ETL and the new UPL192ETL, but it is all going a bit fast now, so I will first await @hopkins's report.

 

By the way, does anyone know whether it is possible to feed the U96ETL with I2S using some conversion? Then I could find out how the SDTrans sounds with the ECdesigns combo vs the Terminator.