Optical Network Configurations

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, Bertel said:

Thanks @jabbr - exactly, that‘s why I use the well known MikroTik at 10Gbs to connect computer and NAS with the rest, to be on the safe side so to speak in this regard.

 

As said, that‘s all in place already for a long time and working perfectly well, I just try to figure out whether I can replace the wired EtherRegen with a wireless connection as a next step. Will post a diagram tomorrow to make myself mire clearand understood. (And just buy the MikroTik hAP ac and see if it does the job 😉)

I would **only** worry about the closest network connection to your DAC. If the EtherREGEN is closest to your DAC and you replace with a wireless connection, the result will be unpredictable and you are likely to lose any benefit of the optical network. 

[Bertel]

It‘s not - PC and NAS are connected via optical to the MikroTik, as also the Signature Rendu is, which in turn connects via USB to my Holo May. I‘m just trying to get rid of the EtherRegen between MikroTik and ISP router, and replace with Wifi bridge.

[jabbr]

8 minutes ago, Bertel said:

It‘s not - PC and NAS are connected via optical to the MikroTik, as also the Signature Rendu is, which in turn connects via USB to my Holo May. I‘m just trying to get rid of the EtherRegen between MikroTik and ISP router, and replace with Wifi bridge.

You are totally fine doing that.

[Bertel]

Thanks - my question is with which product. Which product provides 10Gbps SFP on one side and WiFi on the other as kind of a bridge?

[jabbr]

15 minutes ago, Bertel said:

Thanks - my question is with which product. Which product provides 10Gbps SFP on one side and WiFi on the other as kind of a bridge?

Don't worry about fiber too much on the wifi router, just put a copper ethernet into the Mikrotik

 

... there is the ASUS AX6000 WiFi 6 Gaming Router (RT-AX89X) though ...

 

but the Mikrotik should also do the job and has an SFP port which is totally fine.

[R1200CL]

9 hours ago, Bertel said:

Thanks - my question is with which product. Which product provides 10Gbps SFP on one side and WiFi on the other as kind of a bridge?

I think you’re looking for a device normally called an access point. 
A router can act an access point. 

[audiophilac]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:50 PM, MartinT said:

I've done a lot of SFP swapping today in order to double-check my findings and make a firm recommendation. I powered off the EtherREGEN when swapping SFP but hot-swapped SFP at the Sig Rendu SE end so as not to require a restart between sessions.

The optical cable was the ipolex throughout, which I definitely prefer over the BlueOptics optical cable.

There is not much in it, the HP SFP offers stiff competition but I give the nod to the BlueOptics for just a touch more sparkle at the top end, and that's all the difference I can hear. You can select according to system requirements, if your system already runs 'hot' in the treble then select the HP.

Final Recommendation
BlueOptics BO35J13610D 10Gbps SFP both ends
ipolex X000T56NEB OS2-LC-LC-D5M single-mode optical cable (choose length to suit)

Where can I order the ipolex cable?

[dbastin]

18 hours ago, Bertel said:

Thanks - my question is with which product. Which product provides 10Gbps SFP on one side and WiFi on the other as kind of a bridge?

I searched for a 10Gbe WiFi Access Point (WAP) but gave up.  My interest was not for speed, but better specs than 1Gbpe.  I did consider getting a SFP+ router with WiFi (eg. gaming ones) and setting it up as WAP only.  Still an option.  There is also 60Gbps wireless wire ... https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire

 

Currently I use Mikrotik mAP lite with USB Power Bank and Akiko USB stick.  It is at the end of a Shunyata Sigma.   The mAP lite provides network connection to the endpoint, Devialet Pro.

 

In other words, I have minimised noise getting into the WAP, and try to defeat what little noise is left.  I could do the same with a gaming router as WAP, but it might not really be an improvement.given those are built for speed and may generate more noise and jitter than mAP lite which is 100Mbs.  However a SFP+ router would enable me to connect using fibre from the Mikrotik CRS 305 (Rouer OS) and guarantee galvanic isolation, and sell the Sigma to gain savings.

 

For now the mAP lite is producing a result that is very pleasing, so not really great incentive to change that except curiosity.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

I searched for a 10Gbe WiFi Access Point (WAP) but gave up.  My interest was not for speed, but better specs than 1Gbpe.  I did consider getting a SFP+ router with WiFi (eg. gaming ones) and setting it up as WAP only.  Still an option.  There is also 60Gbps wireless wire ... https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire

 

Currently I use Mikrotik mAP lite with USB Power Bank and Akiko USB stick.  It is at the end of a Shunyata Sigma.   The mAP lite provides network connection to the endpoint, Devialet Pro.

 

In other words, I have minimised noise getting into the WAP, and try to defeat what little noise is left.  I could do the same with a gaming router as WAP, but it might not really be an improvement.given those are built for speed and may generate more noise and jitter than mAP lite which is 100Mbs.  However a SFP+ router would enable me to connect using fibre from the Mikrotik CRS 305 (Rouer OS) and guarantee galvanic isolation, and sell the Sigma to gain savings.

 

For now the mAP lite is producing a result that is very pleasing, so not really great incentive to change that except curiosity.

 

I know others have said "Well this isn't what you asked, but I have a different solution," and though I hate to be one more of those, here is my thought:

 

Fiber from Mikrotik to Fitlet3 with optional optical Ethernet. Get Fitlet with Linux Mint OS and install NAA and upmpdcli so you can use your choice of player software.

 

If this is more technical than you want to get, my apologies for the unproductive suggestion.

[MartinT]

7 hours ago, audiophilac said:

Where can I order the ipolex cable?

 

I ordered mine from Amazon UK.

[MartinT]

Personally I would not introduce wi-fi into the link. It is very jitter prone. An optical link should give you lower overall noise (certainly lower jitter and phase noise). Just my opinion.

[audiophilac]

17 minutes ago, MartinT said:

 

I ordered mine from Amazon UK.

I couldn't find anything - ipolex X000T56NEB. how about ‎B079R1934L?

[MartinT]

Amazon UK - presumably they will ship elsewhere (I sometimes order from Amazon.com):

 

LC to LC Fibre Patch Cable 5m, OS1/OS2 Leads Single Mode Duplex 9/125 Fiber Optic Cable (LSZH) for 10Gb/Gigabit SFP Transceiver: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

[audiophilac]

6 hours ago, MartinT said:

Amazon UK - presumably they will ship elsewhere (I sometimes order from Amazon.com):

 

LC to LC Fibre Patch Cable 5m, OS1/OS2 Leads Single Mode Duplex 9/125 Fiber Optic Cable (LSZH) for 10Gb/Gigabit SFP Transceiver: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

Could you share the link/specs of the blueoptics cable that you tested?

[dbastin]

9 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I know others have said "Well this isn't what you asked, but I have a different solution," and though I hate to be one more of those, here is my thought:

 

Fiber from Mikrotik to Fitlet3 with optional optical Ethernet. Get Fitlet with Linux Mint OS and install NAA and upmpdcli so you can use your choice of player software.

 

If this is more technical than you want to get, my apologies for the unproductive suggestion.

Not sure if this was intended for me or @Bertel.  I have a player in the Devialet Pro.  Wifi to the Devialet is exceptional and much much better than the last wired system I tried with it (Gigafoils and EtherRegens in series), although I will revisit that because I may not have optimised isolation of power supplies and cable shields.

 

9 hours ago, MartinT said:

Personally I would not introduce wi-fi into the link. It is very jitter prone. An optical link should give you lower overall noise (certainly lower jitter and phase noise). Just my opinion.

See above.  Until I tried Auralic Aries G1 and Devialet over wifi, I was avoiding wifi too.  It seems to me, even if wifi has shortcomings, it has way less problems for sound quality than wired connection to those two endpoints (which don't have fibre input).  Further upstream where users have more options, wifi may be more problematic than the other options.

[Bertel]

On 7/31/2022 at 7:09 PM, R1200CL said:

Now I’m confused. Can you make a drawing present network,,and what you’re asking. 

 

Let my try to clarify and visualise what I'm trying to achieve - please bear with me 😉

 

Current setup

My music server (PC with HQP), my NAS, my Signature Rendu SE all connect to the MikroTik switch with optical fiber. Vodafone is my ISP, the router they provide manages all the IP addresses, DHCP, DNS etc., also telephony. I don't stream, I don't use Roon, but the network devices need the network management services of the router, the Rendu needs internet access for SW updates.
So when playing music, an audio file is taken from the NAS, played on the music server with HQPlayer, and sent to the SIgnature Rendu(and from there over USB to the DAC, either Holo May KTE or VMV D1se at the moment)

The bit I'm focusing on here in this topic is the upper right corner, i.e. the connection between the MikroTik switch and the internet router. Everything in the music path from NAS to the Rendu is optical fiber already, so 'light' not 'wire' in my naive view, galvanically and mechanically isolating the components, a thought which I like a lot. 
The only wire still in place is the one to the 'dirty internet' and the router with all its non-audio activities, and I want to get rid of that wire. Not because it was a technical issue of any sort, just because I can (hopefully) ;-) It shall be replaced by a wireless (Wifi) connection.

 

Alternative 1 - MikroTik hAP ac

The MikroTik hAP ac is a router with 5 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports and 1 SFP port as well as dual band Wifi (4 and 5). According to MikroTik support, it is possible to bridge SFP and Wifi tigether, making it act like a switch, and they confirm that it'll work for my use case. I'm not sure yet though, as I see two potential hurdles:

• Connecting with my MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch via optical should be trivial, but the Wifi side for connecting with the internet router could be tricky. The hAP ac is designed to provide its own network as an extension of its Ethernet and SFP, not connect into an existing one. Yet MikroTik support says it can be done.
• The configuration is done in SwitchOS. Which I have on my CRS305-1G-4S+ as well, but it's hardly documented, so probably a lot of research on the MikroTik forum.

 

Alternative 2 - Fritz!Box 5530 Fiber

This is AVM's wifi router with WFI 6, 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports, 1 2.5 Gigabit Ethernet port, and 1 SFP port. While Wifi 6 is great and integration with the existing Wifi that the Fritz Box 6660 Cable as my internet router provides will be a breeze, using its Mesh functionality (I already have a couple of Fritz Repeaters in the network, thy're truly plug and play and work reliably 24/7), I have no clue yet how to get the optical side connected. Three standards are supported - AON, GPON and XGS-PON (the latter only for models provided by ISVs if I understand correctly). I have no clue what these standards mean for practical connectivity in my use case, will need to figure that out now. Here are the details for reference:

 

FRITZ!SFP AON
ITU-T G.652; IEEE 802.3ah-2004 1000BASE-BX10
LC/APC 8°
Wavelength: TX 1310 nm, RX 1480 to 1580 nm
Full duplex transmission
Transmitter power: -9 to -3 dBm
Reception range: -3 to -23 dBm
Range: 10 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

FRITZ!SFP GPON
Suitable for ITU-T G.984.2/984.5 (GPON)
LC/APC 8°
Wavelength: TX 1310 nm, RX 1490 nm (with filter)
Suitable for rogue detection
Transmitter power: 0.5 to 5 dBm
Reception range: -3 to -28 dBm
Range: 20 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

FRITZ!SFP XGS-PON
ITU-T G.9807 (10-Gigabit-capable symmetric passive optical network)
SC-UPC
Wavelength: TX 1270 nm, RX 1577 nm
Full duplex transmission
Transmitter power: +5 to +9 dBm
Reception range: -8 to -29 dBm
Range: 20 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

 

You still with me? Good, thank you 😉 I have ordered both devices, the MikroTik hAP ac and the Fritz!Box 5530 Fiber. If there's interest I'll be happy to let you know how it goes. 

[audiophilac]

Does your ISP provide fibre to the home?

I’d rather you use eR nearest to your streamer (signature Rendu)

Instead of eR between the cable modem to crs305, i suggest another mikrotik switch.

[Bertel]

18 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

Does your ISP provide fibre to the home?

 

No they don't, it's cable based, hence the Fritz Box 6660 Cable is required (otherwise I'd replace that altogether with the 5530 Fibre).

 

18 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

I’d rather you use eR nearest to your streamer (signature Rendu)

 

I don't need it there, everything between PC, NAS and Rendu is optical fibre already.

 

20 minutes ago, audiophilac said:

Instead of eR between the cable modem to crs305, i suggest another mikrotik switch.

 

That would be alternative 1 with the MikroTik hAP ac as switch. I'm giving that a try.

[matthias]

2 hours ago, Bertel said:

Fritz Box 6660 Cable

 

As all Cable Fritz Boxes have the "bad" Intel Puma chips inside, did you try a modem/router with Broadcom chip?

 

 

Matt

[Bertel]

27 minutes ago, matthias said:

As all Cable Fritz Boxes have the "bad" Intel Puma chips inside, did you try a modem/router with Broadcom chip?

 

I had no idea that there was an issue with Intel Puma chips, thanks @matthias for making me aware of this. Have just done some Google 'research', seems to cause latency and such. I've only had the Fritz Box 6660 Cable for 3 months, haven't noticed any negative effects yet (TV, laptops, iPhones and iPad connected), will watch out.

 

However, this is not relevant for my audio network, which I'm focusing on here, just need to access the Fritz Box for IP management and DNS etc., or when I do an update of the Signature Rendu OS over the internet. As pointed out above, my focus here is not to replace the Fritz Box 6660 Cable, but the EtherREGEN.

[matthias]

6 minutes ago, Bertel said:

 

I had no idea that there was an issue with Intel Puma chips, thanks @matthias for making me aware of this. Have just done some Google 'research', seems to cause latency and such. I've only had the Fritz Box 6660 Cable for 3 months, haven't noticed any negative effects yet (TV, laptops, iPhones and iPad connected), will watch out.

 

However, this is not relevant for my audio network, which I'm focusing on here, just need to access the Fritz Box for IP management and DNS etc., or when I do an update of the Signature Rendu OS over the internet. As pointed out above, my focus here is not to replace the Fritz Box 6660 Cable, but the EtherREGEN.

 Sorry, I didn't read all your posts. I thought you need the Fritz Box as well for streaming from Qobuz etc.

 

Matt

[Bertel]

3 hours ago, Bertel said:

Alternative 1 - MikroTik hAP ac

The MikroTik hAP ac is a router with 5 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports and 1 SFP port as well as dual band Wifi (4 and 5). According to MikroTik support, it is possible to bridge SFP and Wifi tigether, making it act like a switch, and they confirm that it'll work for my use case. I'm not sure yet though, as I see two potential hurdles:

• Connecting with my MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch via optical should be trivial, but the Wifi side for connecting with the internet router could be tricky. The hAP ac is designed to provide its own network as an extension of its Ethernet and SFP, not connect into an existing one. Yet MikroTik support says it can be done.
• The configuration is done in SwitchOS. Which I have on my CRS305-1G-4S+ as well, but it's hardly documented, so probably a lot of research on the MikroTik forum.

 

Correction / addendum:

Just received additional information from MikroTik support how it's done:

hAP ac needs to be set to station mode, then connected to the router's WiFi, then bridge WiFi and SFP ports together - and voila my SFP devices on my MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ will be able to access the Wifi network trough this bridge with the hAP ac. Setting the Station Mode is done in RouterOS (not SwitchOS), there's a whole section on it in the RouterOS documentation (https://help.mikrotik.com/docs/display/ROS/Wireless+Station+Modes)

Have ordered the hAP ac on Amazon, should be here in the next few days. That's the route I'll go for the moment.

[MartinT]

10 hours ago, audiophilac said:

Could you share the link/specs of the blueoptics cable that you tested?

 

10 hours ago, audiophilac said:

Could you share the link/specs of the blueoptics cable that you tested?

I got it from GBIC in Germany, but I don't recommend it. The ipolex is much better. 

[dbastin]

5 hours ago, Bertel said:

 

Let my try to clarify and visualise what I'm trying to achieve - please bear with me 😉

 

Current setup

My music server (PC with HQP), my NAS, my Signature Rendu SE all connect to the MikroTik switch with optical fiber. Vodafone is my ISP, the router they provide manages all the IP addresses, DHCP, DNS etc., also telephony. I don't stream, I don't use  Roon, but the network devices need the network management services of the router, the Rendu needs internet access for SW updates.
So when playing music, an audio file is taken from the NAS, played on the music server with HQPlayer, and sent to the SIgnature Rendu(and from there over USB to the DAC, either Holo May KTE or VMV D1se at the moment)

The bit I'm focusing on here in this topic is the upper right corner, i.e. the connection between the MikroTik switch and the internet router. Everything in the music path from NAS to the Rendu is optical fiber already, so 'light' not 'wire' in my naive view, galvanically and mechanically isolating the components, a thought which I like a lot. 
The only wire still in place is the one to the 'dirty internet' and the router with all its non-audio activities, and I want to get rid of that wire. Not because it was a technical issue of any sort, just because I can (hopefully) ;-) It shall be replaced by a wireless (Wifi) connection.

 

Alternative 1 - MikroTik hAP ac

The MikroTik hAP ac is a router with 5 10/100/1000 Ethernet ports and 1 SFP port as well as dual band Wifi (4 and 5). According to MikroTik support, it is possible to bridge SFP and Wifi tigether, making it act like a switch, and they confirm that it'll work for my use case. I'm not sure yet though, as I see two potential hurdles:

• Connecting with my MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+ switch via optical should be trivial, but the Wifi side for connecting with the internet router could be tricky. The hAP ac is designed to provide its own network as an extension of its Ethernet and SFP, not connect into an existing one. Yet MikroTik support says it can be done.
• The configuration is done in SwitchOS. Which I have on my CRS305-1G-4S+ as well, but it's hardly documented, so probably a lot of research on the MikroTik forum.

 

Alternative 2 - Fritz!Box 5530 Fiber

This is AVM's wifi router with WFI 6, 2 Gigabit Ethernet ports, 1 2.5 Gigabit Ethernet port, and 1 SFP port. While Wifi 6 is great and integration with the existing Wifi that the Fritz Box 6660 Cable as my internet router provides will be a breeze, using its Mesh functionality (I already have a couple of Fritz Repeaters in the network, thy're truly plug and play and work reliably 24/7), I have no clue yet how to get the optical side connected. Three standards are supported - AON, GPON and XGS-PON (the latter only for models provided by ISVs if I understand correctly). I have no clue what these standards mean for practical connectivity in my use case, will need to figure that out now. Here are the details for reference:

 

FRITZ!SFP AON
ITU-T G.652; IEEE 802.3ah-2004 1000BASE-BX10
LC/APC 8°
Wavelength: TX 1310 nm, RX 1480 to 1580 nm
Full duplex transmission
Transmitter power: -9 to -3 dBm
Reception range: -3 to -23 dBm
Range: 10 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

FRITZ!SFP GPON
Suitable for ITU-T G.984.2/984.5 (GPON)
LC/APC 8°
Wavelength: TX 1310 nm, RX 1490 nm (with filter)
Suitable for rogue detection
Transmitter power: 0.5 to 5 dBm
Reception range: -3 to -28 dBm
Range: 20 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

FRITZ!SFP XGS-PON
ITU-T G.9807 (10-Gigabit-capable symmetric passive optical network)
SC-UPC
Wavelength: TX 1270 nm, RX 1577 nm
Full duplex transmission
Transmitter power: +5 to +9 dBm
Reception range: -8 to -29 dBm
Range: 20 km
Support for SFF-8472
Class 1 laser

 

 

You still with me? Good, thank you 😉 I have ordered both devices, the MikroTik hAP ac and the Fritz!Box 5530 Fiber. If there's interest I'll be happy to let you know how it goes. 

I actually think your current set up is very good even for streaming from the internet, provided the Cat 6a is UTP.  It is similar to mine from the Fritz box to CRS 305, however I use the CRS 305 as router.  I am curious if strapping an Akiko tuning stick to the Cat 6a right where it connects to ER would kill off more noise than ER alone.  It is a very worthwhile approach with speaker cables right at the speaker binding posts.

 

But getting to your proposal, my first question is can you hear a difference if you swap the Cat 6a for a cable you know is terrible?  I suspect you can, but if not why not just leave it as is?

 

Or you could swap the ER with a FMC, or a low cost switch with SFP (CRS 106). Or connect a WAP to CES 305 via its single RJ45.

5 hours ago, audiophilac said:

I’d rather you use eR nearest to your streamer (signature Rendu)

I agree, that is if it is an improvement given the rendu's ethernet is probably a similar design to ER (except the moat).

[Bertel]

5 minutes ago, dbastin said:

But getting to your proposal, my first question is can you hear a difference if you swap the Cat 6a for a cable you know is terrible?  I suspect you can, but if not why not just leave it as is?

 

No, I have never listened to / compared Ethernet cables. My goal is to get rid of them, and of wired (copper) connections altogether 😉