Optical Network Configurations

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, ericuco said:

I have always bought cables from Fibertronics which uses Corning glass. They have always been good to deal with, quick shipping and good prices.

 

Per their website: 

 

“Fibertronics offers a huge selection of Fiber Optic Patch Cables. Most of our cables are Ready-to-Ship for overnight deliveries. Single-mode and Multimode fiber optic jumper and patch cords are available at factory direct prices. Don't forget we also offer armored variants as well. Some of our options include; 9/125, 50/125, 62.5/125, 10Gb OM3 and OM2. Our assemblies are manufactured using Corning glass and all cables can be customized for little to no extra cost.”

 

Thanks for the resource. I also use fs.com which has great prices. I don't know that they use Corning glass or not. I just know that Corning is state of the art and not very expensive.

[FIndingit]

The benefit of the AOC cable is the black colour instead of the omnipresent yellow.

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

Sorry late to the party but my Fiber Optic media converter arrived today consisting of:
10Gtek Gigabit Fiber Media Converter w/ Pair of Bidi SFP Singlemode Simplex LC Module (Kit #5)
10Gtek OS2 LC to LC Duplex Fiber Patch Cable 0.5m
TOPPING P50 LPS
USB Type A Male to 90 Degree Barrel Connector Charging Cable 5.5 x 2.5mm DC 5V 80cm
Veetop Ethernet LAN Cat 8 RJ45 Cable 0.25

Initial Impressions: Uplift in resolution, separation, blacker background, a bit more analog(?) to my system.
Verdict: For 220Eur total, yes a keeper.

Pics or did not happen:

 

 

[barrows]

2 hours ago, m.i.c.k.e.y said:

Sorry late to the party but my Fiber Optic media converter arrived today consisting of:
10Gtek Gigabit Fiber Media Converter w/ Pair of Bidi SFP Singlemode Simplex LC Module (Kit #5)
10Gtek OS2 LC to LC Duplex Fiber Patch Cable 0.5m
TOPPING P50 LPS
USB Type A Male to 90 Degree Barrel Connector Charging Cable 5.5 x 2.5mm DC 5V 80cm
Veetop Ethernet LAN Cat 8 RJ45 Cable 0.25

Initial Impressions: Uplift in resolution, separation, blacker background, a bit more analog(?) to my system.
Verdict: For 220Eur total, yes a keeper.

Pics or did not happen:

 

 

you are using the same power supply for both FMCs?  Does that power supply have completely separate outputs (dedicated transformer windings for each output at least, better to have dedicated transformers for each output).  If you share a supply between the two FMCs you are defeating the isolation which the fiber cable provides, is the ground connection shared on those two outputs?

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

Just an intial experiment. I might go into that (buy a second LPS). For now this will do.

LPS is connected to a Puritan PSM156 power conditioner.  However do thanks for the advice.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, m.i.c.k.e.y said:

Just an intial experiment. I might go into that (buy a second LPS). For now this will do.

LPS is connected to a Puritan PSM156 power conditioner.  However do thanks for the advice.

 

This is a great start.

 

What you want to do is keep the first FMC entirely outside your conditioned power area of your audio system. That way the only inputs to your audio area are

1) fiber

2) conditioned power -- and ideally your power conditioner is isolating

[sjj]

I’ve read countless pages and my head is swimming with what might be the best components for my situation. Currently I have a Pi2AES streamer with a copper Ethernet connection connected to my Yggy via AES and would like to implement a Copper > Fiber > Copper connection to see if it improves my SQ. I’ve been considering an EtherRegen instead but think that may be beyond my budget. Also the Pi2AES utilizes a SOTM SPS-500 power supply.

From what I gathered as components that provide some of the best results I’m considering 2 1Gb FMC’s from fs.com , 2 JD094B HPE H3C Compatible 10GBase-LR SFP+ and a ipolex OS2-LC-LC cable. I will power the FMC closest to my Pi2AES with my Shanti LPS.

Does this sound like a workable solution? Is there a better solution or components?

[ericuco]

40 minutes ago, sjj said:

I’m considering 2 1Gb FMC’s from fs.com , 2 JD094B HPE H3C Compatible 10GBase-LR SFP+ and a ipolex OS2-LC-LC cable.

I would not use SFP+ (10Gbe) modules (transceivers) with SFP (1Gbe) FMC.  It might work but not guaranteed so to begin with stick with same level (SFP or SFP+) components. Most SFP+ equipment (FMC, switch) will work with SFP modules but not vise versa.

 

Also, make sure you have correct cables to match modules (single mode or multi-mode). Again, these are not interchangeable.

[sjj]

Thanks for your input. I decided to stick with the fs.com 1Gb FMC’s and also purchase fs.com 1Gb SFP’s and related fiber cable. Will see how it goes.

[jabbr]

On 1/10/2023 at 11:47 AM, ericuco said:

I would not use SFP+ (10Gbe) modules (transceivers) with SFP (1Gbe) FMC.  It might work but not guaranteed so to begin with stick with same level (SFP or SFP+) components. Most SFP+ equipment (FMC, switch) will work with SFP modules but not vise versa.

 

Also, make sure you have correct cables to match modules (single mode or multi-mode). Again, these are not interchangeable.

Well ha ha ha if you go back to the top of the thread, when I had no idea what I was really doing I used SFP+ modules with SFP FMC and it turns out to work ... not guaranteed but often does work 💁‍♂️

[SQFIRST]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:13 PM, jabbr said:

What you want to do is keep the first FMC entirely outside your conditioned power area of your audio system. That way the only inputs to your audio area are

1) fiber

2) conditioned power -- and ideally your power conditioner is isolating

Very good advice.

 

This is such a crucial setup control point and so hard to figure out on your own. Wish such isolation principles were easier to find or more widely known. I suppose there is an enjoyment in the self discovery method also, that is, hours and hours of frustration chasing it down if at all!

 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, SQFIRST said:

Very good advice.

 

This is such a crucial setup control point and so hard to figure out on your own. Wish such isolation principles were easier to find or more widely known. I suppose there is an enjoyment in the self discovery method also, that is, hours and hours of frustration chasing it down if at all!

 

 

Yeah to expand on this, I have two power domains: 1) the high power servers, NAS, switches and all the junk in my house 2) a hefty isolation transformer which supplies clean power to my audio area. The isolation transformer prevents ground loops/leakage currents from the various gunk in my house (fridge, SMPS, TV etc) from interacting with my audio equipment.

 

The only source of digital information to "penetrate" my audio area arrives via fiberoptic. This is  pure digital bits with no electronic noise so the high powered server processing/filters etc  doesn't transmit noise into the audio area.

[juniorbudel]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:09 PM, jabbr said:

 

Yeah to expand on this, I have two power domains: 1) the high power servers, NAS, switches and all the junk in my house 2) a hefty isolation transformer which supplies clean power to my audio area. The isolation transformer prevents ground loops/leakage currents from the various gunk in my house (fridge, SMPS, TV etc) from interacting with my audio equipment.

 

The only source of digital information to "penetrate" my audio area arrives via fiberoptic. This is  pure digital bits with no electronic noise so the high powered server processing/filters etc  doesn't transmit noise into the audio area.

I have a similar setup, I would like to ask a question.  
 

In this scenario, can power supplies or less noisy equipment (in my case I have the Roon Server and the router in another room) interfere with the SQ of the setup?
 

 I would like to test it in practice but the cost is high just to clear the doubt.

[barrows]

13 minutes ago, juniorbudel said:

I have a similar setup, I would like to ask a question.  
 

In this scenario, can power supplies or less noisy equipment (in my case I have the Roon Server and the router in another room) interfere with the SQ of the setup?
 

 I would like to test it in practice but the cost is high just to clear the doubt.

Some will say yes...  Some will say no if those power supplies are on the "dirty" side of your optical isolation.  I have never seen any objective proof offered showing improved performance by using fancy ultra low noise/impedance power supplies on the "dirty" side of the set up, but some insist that there are gains to be made there (subjectively).  From a technical perspective it is hard to support such an idea, certainly no one I am aware of has even speculated on a valid technical reason why doing this would make a difference.

My suggestion is to first get everything "right" in the audio system.  Make sure you have the best possible ultra low noise Renderer with optical Ethernet input.  Make sure your audio system is dialed in to the max.  Then, if you really want to experiment for further gains (which may be possible, but may not).  Then go ahead and experiment.  OTOH, once you have the audio side fully optimized, perhaps your system will sound so good, that your time would be better spent enjoying the music than tweaking further with gear.  If you want to experiment on improvements on the "dirty" side, the first place I would start is with whatever Network component (switch or FMC) creates the optical feed to your system.  Upgrade that, and power it with a really good linear power supply, and determine if it really makes a difference or not, for you.

 

Additionally, if your audio system is not isolated from the upstream computer gear via optical Ethernet isolation, then certainly take advantage of doing that, as it really does make a difference. 

[SQFIRST]

9 minutes ago, barrows said:

 

My suggestion is to first get everything "right" in the audio system. 

 

once you have the audio side fully optimized, perhaps your system will sound so good, that your time would be better spent enjoying the music than tweaking further with gear.   

 

That's great advice!

 

 

33 minutes ago, juniorbudel said:

In this scenario, can power supplies or less noisy equipment (in my case I have the Roon Server and the router in another room) interfere with the SQ of the setup?

I will add that if one is using a roonserver then things can get blurry (debatable) on what helps. It may seem innocent and easy but can be a beast of a challenge to clean up. All I will say is that since it directly affects the audio quality in one's setup, whatever improvements you make for/around/inside it, shows itself regardless of clean or dirty side.

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, juniorbudel said:

I have a similar setup, I would like to ask a question.  
 

In this scenario, can power supplies or less noisy equipment (in my case I have the Roon Server and the router in another room) interfere with the SQ of the setup?
 

 I would like to test it in practice but the cost is high just to clear the doubt.

Agree with @barrows but let me be more clear: with a modern fiberoptic ethernet network there is **complete** 100% isolation of the datastream bits, i.e. there is **zero** transmission of noise from the servers (Roon server in your case) or other upstream noisy equipment.

 

By modern we can say 10Gbe and up.

 

With an "ultra" isolation transformer there is essentially no noise from devices in the rest of your house which make it into your audio system.

 

So... as @barrows says, and I totally agree, optimize your audio system to your heart's content and spend the rest of your time enjoying music.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, SQFIRST said:

 

I will add that if one is using a roonserver then things can get blurry (debatable) on what helps. It may seem innocent and easy but can be a beast of a challenge to clean up. All I will say is that since it directly affects the audio quality in one's setup, whatever improvements you make for/around/inside it, shows itself regardless of clean or dirty side.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Certainly Roon's filter's are up for debate and one can question the quality of the underlying datastream on that basis. I personally use HQPlayers filters/demodulators and there is no question that different settings have different SQ. The EC modulators in particular take huge processing capabilities including overclocking if up to DSD512 and now even DSD1024!!! This high powered/overclocked server noise is obliterated by fiber and the SQ is phenomenal.

 

However there is **zero noise** coming from a Roon server which makes it across a modern fiberoptic network. Fiberoptics are not capable of transmitting common mode noise by definition (that's the pesky noise) and differential mode as well as phase noise is tested **not** to be transmitted over a  10Gbe(+) ethernet.

[SQFIRST]

I was not questioning the isolation aspect of fiber but rather pointing that a roonserver needs careful integration.

In my experience the Roonserver itself changes the sound quality as a source component. I don't use hqplayer so am not able to share if that does clean up any issues from the roonserver. Power supply on the roonserver certainly made a difference in my setup and it is upstream before the fiber isolation. 

[jabbr]

17 minutes ago, SQFIRST said:

I was not questioning the isolation aspect of fiber but rather pointing that a roonserver needs careful integration.

In my experience the Roonserver itself changes the sound quality as a source component. I don't use hqplayer so am not able to share if that does clean up any issues from the roonserver. Power supply on the roonserver certainly made a difference in my setup and it is upstream before the fiber isolation. 

 

If the PSU to your server affects SQ when fiber isolation is used then you may have a ground loop/leakage current between the server and your audio equipment. With a fiber network, this really can only be caused if your audio area is not power isolated, so consider getting a really good isolation transformer, and obviously keep the server outside the audio area. The isolation transformers are used in electronics labs and without them you can see cheap SMPS wall warts injecting noise into oscilloscopes even when the wall wart isn't powering anything that has an input to the scope. 

 

This all assumes that the equipment is in good working order because obviously if the PSU is substandard such that packets are lost and network integrity itself is lost then all bets are off.

[SQFIRST]

@jabbr thank you for the explanation on controlling noise with isolation transformer. Your insight is helpful and it is apparent that you are knowledgeable on the topic.

Since my initial comment to @juniorbudel  was unclear (I didn't want to go off topic with a Roon discussion) I want to clarify a little further. The question, if I understood correct, was whether power supply and hardware can improve sound quality from a Roonserver. This is in addition to power and network isolation for the main audio setup. In the past I shared some of my experience here:

I find that the Roonserver is similar to any source component in the system and benefits from good power supply and careful setup. I am open to learning new things and changing course that creates better listening experience so I am interested in hearing any different experience others have.

 

As long as one is hearing good sound and enjoying their music, that is all that matters!

[juniorbudel]

Thanks everyone for the reports.  
 

My set is completely isolated from the “dirty” side, in the listening room the fiber arrives at a Sotm switch, which feeds an Ultrarendu -> Matrix SPdif -> Direcstream DAC -> pre/power Electrocompaniet.  The sound for my intentions is spectacular, I haven't changed anything on the set for more than a year and I'm thinking about the possibilities without incurring huge costs.  

 

On the dirty side, I have the Roon Core (associated with HQPLAYER) which is actually an All In One HP that I use on a daily basis, I have no intention in the short and medium term of turning this server into a dedicated machine, much less mounting something fanless.  

 

In addition to the server, I have a router from the operator (any brand) and from this router the signal is sent to another Ubiquiti router that sends the fiber to the listening room.  

 

I was suggested a DC Filter Kit by FX Audio - Petit Susie and Petit Tank, could you try them on the Ubiquiti router and on the server, does anyone know?  Recommend?

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

Dont know if it has been posted but LHY has just released their SW-10 Eithernet Switch:

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, m.i.c.k.e.y said:

Dont know if it has been posted but LHY has just released their SW-10 Eithernet Switch:

 

That looks interesting. 

[R1200CL]

$1,349.00
 

And no phase noise numbers. 
 

Let’s se in the new EtherRegen do something similar, at a lower price point. 

[dbastin]

13 hours ago, juniorbudel said:

Thanks everyone for the reports.  
 

My set is completely isolated from the “dirty” side, in the listening room the fiber arrives at a Sotm switch, which feeds an Ultrarendu -> Matrix SPdif -> Direcstream DAC -> pre/power Electrocompaniet.  The sound for my intentions is spectacular, I haven't changed anything on the set for more than a year and I'm thinking about the possibilities without incurring huge costs.  

 

On the dirty side, I have the Roon Core (associated with HQPLAYER) which is actually an All In One HP that I use on a daily basis, I have no intention in the short and medium term of turning this server into a dedicated machine, much less mounting something fanless.  

 

In addition to the server, I have a router from the operator (any brand) and from this router the signal is sent to another Ubiquiti router that sends the fiber to the listening room.  

 

I was suggested a DC Filter Kit by FX Audio - Petit Susie and Petit Tank, could you try them on the Ubiquiti router and on the server, does anyone know?  Recommend?

If you change a cable or power supply on your dirty side, can you hear any difference?