The "Official" Aurender Discussion Thread

[DancingSea]

9 minutes ago, Anonamemouse said:

Someone probably had a beta version. 

The Roon instructions are on a public page on Aurender’s website.  Roon themselves recently added Aurender to their webpages.  Seems to be cookin’

[SirAtilla]

8 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

Out of curiosity, I contacted Aurender to ask if a Quboz song is cached.  Their response:

 

"No, it's not. It requires internet to play streaming song.

 

 

—

Eric Shim

Lead SW Engineer

Aurender Inc."

 

 

Presumably downloaded streaming & bought Quboz songs would be cached because no internet is required.

 

Eric would definitely know for sure so that is source of truth.  Experiential the buffer is pretty good size maybe 15-20 seconds to protect against network blips or inconsistencies.  I may do an experiment just to understand how much gets buffered and suspect somewhat dependent on resolution of source file. 

[GJo]

I reached out to Aurender last night via the support link in Conductor 4 and asked what’s required to use Roon. 

 

I received an email today that my N30SA was updated over night to enable Roon Beta testing.
 

Roon is now enabled and playing. 

[SirAtilla]

16 minutes ago, GJo said:

I reached out to Aurender last night via the support link in Conductor 4 and asked what’s required to use Roon. 

 

I received an email today that my N30SA was updated over night to enable Roon Beta testing.
 

Roon is now enabled and playing. 

 

Sounds like latest version of Conductor 4.11 has the support to turn this on/off just needed the device firmware?

[GJo]

16 minutes ago, SirAtilla said:

 

Sounds like latest version of Conductor 4.11 has the support to turn this on/off just needed the device firmware?

Yes. However Roon did not appear in Conductor 4.11.5 until firmware was updated. 
 

Firmware 1.24.29

[NTWrong]

1 hour ago, SirAtilla said:

 

Eric would definitely know for sure so that is source of truth.  Experiential the buffer is pretty good size maybe 15-20 seconds to protect against network blips or inconsistencies.  I may do an experiment just to understand how much gets buffered and suspect somewhat dependent on resolution of source file. 

That’s not my understanding. Other manufacturers’ devices rely on RAM, which means that the audio stream is buffered, ten seconds or less ahead of actual playback. So the buffering process is going on continuously (with negative consequences for sound quality?). 

 

Aurender devices don’t buffer, they cache; they don’t use RAM, but an SSD. So — again, as I understand it — the entire playlist is stored to the SSD in advance of playback. 

[SirAtilla]

24 minutes ago, NTWrong said:

That’s not my understanding. Other manufacturers’ devices rely on RAM, which means that the audio stream is buffered, ten seconds or less ahead of actual playback. So the buffering process is going on continuously (with negative consequences for sound quality?). 

 

Aurender devices don’t buffer, they cache; they don’t use RAM, but an SSD. So — again, as I understand it — the entire playlist is stored to the SSD in advance of playback. 

 

The context of this was lost in a few posts - we are discussing strictly whether streaming from Qobuz/TIDAL caches onto the playback SSD.  According to Eric it does not.

 

Your statement is absolutely correct about files stored locally on the Aurender or on a connected ACS.

[krass]

30 minutes ago, SirAtilla said:

 

The context of this was lost in a few posts - we are discussing strictly whether streaming from Qobuz/TIDAL caches onto the playback SSD.  According to Eric it does not.

 

Your statement is absolutely correct about files stored locally on the Aurender or on a connected ACS.

 

some Aurender units are supplied without SSDs; they even say

 

“….We’ve also expanded the internal music library storage capacity by providing two user-installable SSD/HDD trays to suit your needs. And, if you’re 100% streaming, no storage drives need to be installed…..”

 

so streaming does not require SSD, and by implication streaming will not use SSD (the system architecture will surely be the same across the model range… can’t believe some models do and some models do not use SSD for such purpose)

 

Streaming by its very nature does require buffering of course, so there must be some memory/ RAM/ whatever within the design (just like any streamer). Just not the SSD/ hard disks…..

 

 

[SirAtilla]

19 minutes ago, krass said:

 

some Aurender units are supplied without SSDs; they even say

 

“….We’ve also expanded the internal music library storage capacity by providing two user-installable SSD/HDD trays to suit your needs. And, if you’re 100% streaming, no storage drives need to be installed…..”

 

so streaming does not require SSD, and by implication streaming will not use SSD (the system architecture will surely be the same across the model range… can’t believe some models do and some models do not use SSD for such purpose)

 

Streaming by its very nature does require buffering of course, so there must be some memory/ RAM/ whatever within the design (just like any streamer). Just not the SSD/ hard disks…..

 

 

 

Those are storage SSDs not the caching/playback SSD.  All Aurenders have an internal SSD for playback regardless of if you use the user-installable trays.

 

For example my W20SE has 2 8TB storage SSDs (Music1 & Music2) and a 1TB SSD from the factory for caching/playback not user accessible.

 

The size varies depending on model but that has been a standard since the original S10 a decade ago+.

[krass]

1 hour ago, SirAtilla said:

 

Those are storage SSDs not the caching/playback SSD.  All Aurenders have an internal SSD for playback regardless of if you use the user-installable trays.

 

For example my W20SE has 2 8TB storage SSDs (Music1 & Music2) and a 1TB SSD from the factory for caching/playback not user accessible.

 

The size varies depending on model but that has been a standard since the original S10 a decade ago+.

 

thanks, I see that now…. that’ll be the “..some memory/ RAM/ whatever….” that I was referring to; didn’t realise it’s a dedicated NVME SSD…..

[DancingSea]

Yes, only locally stored, NAS or USB files get cached on the internal SSD cache hard drive.  Streaming does not.  He did say they have a plan to support downloaded purchased files in Qubuz, but have not done it yet.

[DancingSea]

5 hours ago, GJo said:

I reached out to Aurender last night via the support link in Conductor 4 and asked what’s required to use Roon. 

 

I received an email today that my N30SA was updated over night to enable Roon Beta testing.
 

Roon is now enabled and playing. 

 

Cool.  How does Roon sound vs Conductor?

[GJo]

25 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

Cool.  How does Roon sound vs Conductor?

Too often, those comparisons devolve into contentious (and unproductive) debate, and I'm not interested in contributing to that.

 

I recommend listeners interested in Roon vs Conductor make their own determinations.

[DancingSea]

39 minutes ago, GJo said:

Too often, those comparisons devolve into contentious (and unproductive) debate, and I'm not interested in contributing to that.

 

It certainly need not be that way.  It's more than possible to have a level headed discussion about the sound quality differences, or similarities.  Pros and cons.

 

I suggest that before last night, it was not possible to discuss the sonic attributes of Roon/Conductor with both being presented by an Aurender.  Therefore, there has likely, in the history of the world, never been such a discussion under those conditions in a public forum.  Ours will be the first, and it's up to us how to handle it.  We can be trailblazers of civility and decorum if we so choose.

 

I have an AMD Aurender which is not able to be a Roon endpoint.  I'm curious about how people view the sonic characteristics - of the new incarnation as a legit Roon Ready endpoint - vs Conductor as valuable feedback to help me determine whether or not I will seek to upgrade to an Intel Aurender.

 

All harmless stuff 🤗

 

Hopefully our host will be able to offer some insight as it has to be the #1 question afoot.  For years and years Aurender had taken the position that adding Roon would compromise sound quality vs Conductor.  Now that they've adopted Roon, it's natural to explore the results.

 

We are audiophiles.  It's what we do.  Evaluate and compare.  The tone is at our discretion.

[GJo]

4 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

It certainly need not be that way.  It's more than possible to have a level headed discussion about the sound quality differences, or similarities.  Pros and cons.

 

I suggest that before last night, it was not possible to discuss the sonic attributes of Roon/Conductor with both being presented by an Aurender.  Therefore, there has likely, in the history of the world, never been such a discussion under those conditions in a public forum.  Ours will be the first, and it's up to us how to handle it.  We can be trailblazers of civility and decorum if we so choose.

 

I have an AMD Aurender which is not able to be a Roon endpoint.  I'm curious about how people view the sonic characteristics - of the new incarnation as a legit Roon Ready endpoint - vs Conductor as valuable feedback to help me determine whether or not I will seek to upgrade to an Intel Aurender.

 

All harmless stuff 🤗

 

Hopefully our host will be able to offer some insight as it has to be the #1 question afoot.  For years and years Aurender had taken the position that adding Roon would compromise sound quality vs Conductor.  Now that they've adopted Roon, it's natural to explore the results.

 

We are audiophiles.  It's what we do.  Evaluate and compare.  The tone is at our discretion.

If anything stands out after listening for a month or so then I might report back. 

[DancingSea]

29 minutes ago, GJo said:

If anything stands out after listening for a month or so then I might report back. 

We will pencil you in as a willing participant 😇

[krass]

10 hours ago, GJo said:

If anything stands out after listening for a month or so then I might report back

 

I don’t know how familiar you are with Roon, or whether you followed the Roon discussions on the Grimm Mu-1 / 2 thread…. just to point out that Roon has many more user configurable options (compared to Conductor) that impact audio, and that there’s a school of thought that you need to basically disable everything to avoid audio degradation…. (btw I am not in that school of thought..)

I just mention it in case you’re new to Roon,  there’s a lot of opinion / advice in some of the other threads you might find useful…..

[GJo]

2 hours ago, krass said:

 

I don’t know how familiar you are with Roon, or whether you followed the Roon discussions on the Grimm Mu-1 / 2 thread…. just to point out that Roon has many more user configurable options (compared to Conductor) that impact audio, and that there’s a school of thought that you need to basically disable everything to avoid audio degradation…. (btw I am not in that school of thought..)

I just mention it in case you’re new to Roon,  there’s a lot of opinion / advice in some of the other threads you might find useful…..

Thank you for your insight.
 

I’m not new to Roon, and I am aware of the concept of disabling all Muse dsp processing, upsampling, etc.

[DancingSea]

Of course the next step is for Aurender become a NAA so we can add HQPlayer to Roon. 
 

Perhaps asking for too much. 

[NTWrong]

On 4/3/2024 at 1:36 PM, DancingSea said:

Yes, only locally stored, NAS or USB files get cached on the internal SSD cache hard drive.  Streaming does not.  He did say they have a plan to support downloaded purchased files in Qubuz, but have not done it yet.

That’s not my understanding. The Quick Start guide says, “Aurender’s playback engine operates on a “play queue” basis. When you select a song or group of songs to play, those files get cached to the internal solid state drive for best audio performance.” 

Their promotional literature says, “Every Aurender model features a massive solid state memory from which all playback occurs. This important feature helps to minimize system resource requirements for enhanced audio performance and stability.” All playback. 
 

And I recall listening to an interview with Ari where he said that users can’t retrieve songs from the cache to store on a computer precisely because, when you stream a song, you haven’t bought it. So songs from streaming services are stored in there, you just can’t access them directly. 

[DancingSea]

32 minutes ago, NTWrong said:

That’s not my understanding. The Quick Start guide says, “Aurender’s playback engine operates on a “play queue” basis. When you select a song or group of songs to play, those files get cached to the internal solid state drive for best audio performance.” 

Their promotional literature says, “Every Aurender model features a massive solid state memory from which all playback occurs. This important feature helps to minimize system resource requirements for enhanced audio performance and stability.” All playback. 
 

And I recall listening to an interview with Ari where he said that users can’t retrieve songs from the cache to store on a computer precisely because, when you stream a song, you haven’t bought it. So songs from streaming services are stored in there, you just can’t access them directly. 

 

I asked this question this week directly to Eric Shim, the "Lead SW Engineer" at Aurender.  He expressed very clearly, that streaming music is in no way cached because it relies upon the internet for playback.  That only locally stored files get cached.  

 

On April 2, 2024 Mr Shim wrote regarding whether or not Quboz streams get cached:

 

"No, it's not. It requires internet to play streaming song....  Except for local, NAS, and USB files, no other content will be cached."  

 

Eric Shim knows more about this topic than perhaps anyone in the world, certainly more than Ari.  Therefore, the matter is settled unless Mr Shim changes his opinion, or offers a clarification.

 

I have followed up with an email asking why streaming music is not cached.  Whether it's simply not possible, or if it was a purposeful design decision.

[feelingears]

On 3/31/2024 at 11:39 AM, HifiVoice said:

 

...other ways of streaming (Conductor, Airplay, JPlay, UPnP, ROON, Audinirvana), and ROON was mostly not amongst the best sound quality wise.

 

Hi, @HifiVoice

I'm curious if you'd share your impressions of what was the better sounding stream, and what the server software was for the stream, please?

[feelingears]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

Eric Shim knows more about this topic than perhaps anyone in the world, certainly more than Ari.  Therefore, the matter is settled unless Mr Shim changes his opinion, or offers a clarification.

 

I have followed up with an email asking why streaming music is not cached.  Whether it's simply not possible, or if it was a purposeful design decision.

 

Speculation: One could imagine streaming into memory for the purposes of buffering and reclocking, etc. but then network activity and playback activity would happen simultaneously and that more or less defeats the purpose of memory playback as I understand it. Nobody is going to wait a few minutes for their streams to load first before playback either, I'd guess.

[Anonamemouse]

It's weird how nobody here appears to know the difference between caching and buffering. 

 

Every stream is buffered on all playback devices. It is simply how it works. Usually about 30 seconds.

You can test this by listening to a streaming station for at least 10 minutes (so that it can build up a buffer), and then unplug the network cable. The music will continue for a while and eventually stop when the buffer is empty. The buffer is needed to prevent drop outs in the stream from causing a drop out in the music that comes from the loudspeakers.

A streaming station just sends out a continuous stream of data, and not separate songs. It's like reading a book written without any spaces or punctuation.

 

A cache is memory where complete songs/albums are (temporarily) stored so that they are played without causing wear and tear to mechanical HDDs, or to prevent the noise of a spinning disc. In this age of good quality SSDs a cache is kinda redundant, but it's a nice selling gimmick.

[NTWrong]

6 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

It's weird how nobody here appears to know the difference between caching and buffering. 

 

Every stream is buffered on all playback devices. It is simply how it works. Usually about 30 seconds.

You can test this by listening to a streaming station for at least 10 minutes (so that it can build up a buffer), and then unplug the network cable. The music will continue for a while and eventually stop when the buffer is empty. The buffer is needed to prevent drop outs in the stream from causing a drop out in the music that comes from the loudspeakers.

A streaming station just sends out a continuous stream of data, and not separate songs. It's like reading a book written without any spaces or punctuation.

 

A cache is memory where complete songs/albums are (temporarily) stored so that they are played without causing wear and tear to mechanical HDDs, or to prevent the noise of a spinning disc. In this age of good quality SSDs a cache is kinda redundant, but it's a nice selling gimmick.

Actually, we do know the difference between buffering and streaming, which would be clear if you had read the posts earlier in this thread. What I don’t know about is how streaming services work. (I play all my music back from the user-installed SSDs.) 

 

Streaming is not like radio. I can go in and choose the tracks that I want to stream, whereas radio is just a constant stream of data so that you can’t choose a track; you hear whatever song is being played at any given time.
 

In theory, then, when I select Money For Nothing from Qobuz, my N200 could download that track and cache it in the internal SSD. I take it from you and @DancingSea that isn’t what happens.

 

But that makes me wonder what the purpose of the SSD cache is. What’s the point of taking a file that I have stored on an internal SSD and loading it into a different SSD before playback. Either way, it’s playing back from an SSD. 

 

Which is why I figured the SSD cache was primarily beneficial to streaming music. But I accept @DancingSea’s answer, since he’s talking directly to someone who knows.