The "Official" Aurender Discussion Thread

[VoicesInMyHead]

3 hours ago, HifiVoice said:

Sound quality wise the differences between Conductor and ROON are small. Conductor sounds a bit more refined, airy and delineated than ROON, and positions the sound stage a little bit more backward in the 3D image, but the differences are very subtle.

 

This is still early and I'm not sure I will even trust my own thoughts at this point so take it for what it is, but with my N20 over SPDIF I found the sound quality difference to not be so subtle at all, but maybe slightly more so over USB. I agree with how you describe the differences, but would actually stretch it to that Roon to me sounds muffled and flat in comparison. I maybe need to do more testing, but to me this is almost unlistenable and it leaves me in a quite awkward situation where I feel disappointed and uncertain of what to do. The thing is that I like Roon and I bought an Aurender mainly because I knew it was coming (I know, not the smartest move). The feeling of running Roon again was great and such a relief, but... in the end it comes down to the sound quality and what you can live with.

 

Kudos to Aurender of course for sounding great, but at the same time I've been using Roon on and off together with other software like Euphony Stylus, JPLAY, HQPlayer, Innuos Sense etc on different hardware and platforms which leaves me a bit puzzled. I've heard Roon sound great. While the edge has more or less always been to the "other" manufacturers advantage, it's been more subtle where I could easily live with Roon. It was expected that Aurender would sound better, but not this much. Maybe it's the OCXO clocked SPDIF increasing the gap somehow as I've only used high quality USB cards and re-clockers before, I don't know. 🤷‍♂️

 

I'm still hoping for things to improve, that Critical Listening Mode will work also for Roon, and then Roon is known for being a bit inconsistent in sound quality between different versions, hopefully it can get better somehow.

[NTWrong]

On 4/6/2024 at 6:51 PM, DancingSea said:

How much buffering differs from caching in terms of SQ is beyond my technological knowledge - how could any of us A/B that?  Aurender's marketing seems to think it matters.  For that reason, it's certainly worth understanding the truth of the matter and reaching one's own conclusions regarding the merits and significance.

It seems to be generally understood that sound quality from locally stored files is superior to sound quality from streaming. There are lots of possible reasons for that (beginning with noisy internet devices) but maybe buffering is a factor. 
 

I research before I buy, and I pay close attention to the design philosophy of the manufacturer. Aurender claims that buffering requires continuously active system resources, whereas switching off system resources (e.g., critical listening mode) has benefits in terms of sound quality. That was absolutely a factor in my decision to go with Aurender instead of, say, Innuos. 
 

I have no regrets. My N200 sounds fabulous. But is it reasonable for people to want to know the facts about Aurender’s reliance on the SSD? Absolutely, for the reasons you provide, @DancingSea.

[GJo]

5 hours ago, VoicesInMyHead said:

 

Roon to me sounds muffled and flat in comparison. I maybe need to do more testing, but to me this is almost unlistenable and it leaves me in a quite awkward situation where I feel disappointed and uncertain of what to do.

My experience with Roon on my N30SA is completely opposite of muffled and flat. 

[VoicesInMyHead]

Just now, GJo said:

My experience with Roon on my N30SA is completely opposite of muffled and flat. 

 

Nice! Then I just need to upgrade... 😀

[GJo]

14 minutes ago, VoicesInMyHead said:

 

Nice! Then I just need to upgrade... 😀

 

@HiFiVoice owns a N200H, and he stated:

 

Quote

Sound quality wise the differences between Conductor and ROON are small. Conductor sounds a bit more refined, airy and delineated than ROON, and positions the sound stage a little bit more backward in the 3D image, but the differences are very subtle.

 

That said, we all hear and evaluate differently. What he evaluates as small, you may consider large. Also, you may both discern varying characteristics.

 

I don't dismiss your observations whatsoever.

[Anonamemouse]

I think that as long as people do not pay attention to the source of their music, it barely matters in what way it comes to you.

 

Good sound quality stands or falls with how the music is recorded, mixed and mastered, and modern mastering (although it really should be called butchering) usually completely kills all dynamics and musicality. There are SO many albums sold as "remasters" which sound like utter excrement. It really doesn't matter what audiogear you have, those modern remasters simply will never sound good. 

 

I do not have ROON and no interest in getting it, but a good friend of mine who has pitch perfect hearing (which is quite scary) has experimented with it about a year ago. He was not impressed sound wise, but kept it because he liked the app. According to him, the sound was "good enough if you don't know any better".

[GJo]

15 minutes ago, Anonamemouse said:

...a good friend of mine who has pitch perfect hearing (which is quite scary) has experimented with it about a year ago. He was not impressed sound wise, but kept it because he liked the app. According to him, the sound was "good enough if you don't know any better".

"Good enough if you don't know better."

 

Nonsense.

[Anonamemouse]

This guy can PERFECTLY tune a single string just by hearing alone. I trust him blindly. 

[GJo]

2 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

This guy can PERFECTLY tune a single string just by hearing alone. I trust him blindly. 

 

Regarding your posts on the topic of Roon, you wrote:

 

Quote

I do not have ROON and no interest in getting it... 

 

That's the pertinent data point when putting your Roon posts in context. No experience. No interest. 

[Anonamemouse]

52 minutes ago, GJo said:

 

Regarding your posts on the topic of Roon, you wrote:

 

 

That's the pertinent data point when putting your Roon posts in context. No experience. No interest. 

👍

[DancingSea]

3 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

I do not have ROON and no interest in getting it, but a good friend of mine who has pitch perfect hearing (which is quite scary) has experimented with it about a year ago. He was not impressed sound wise, but kept it because he liked the app. According to him, the sound was "good enough if you don't know any better".

 

I have a loooooong history with Roon having owned a lifetime license for nearly 7 years.  I'm not an overly fussy audiophile who can break sound quality down into the tiny details, with the proper lingo that some can do.  I have a more macro view.  When something sounds goods to me, I know it.  When it's a bit off, I know that as well.  This won't get me a job a Stereophile or Audiophile Style, but it works for my personal journey.

 

It's worth remembering that the Roon Core plays a key role.  My Roon Core has always been either a MacBook Pro or a Mac Mini, connected to my system via a variety of streamers including an UltraRendu and an iFi ZenStream.  Perhaps results would be different using a purpose built Roon Core like a Nucleus, Titan (the new fancy one), or one of the few third party options (expensive).

 

That said, with my Mac based experience, Roon has never sounded that great.  For me, the only way to make Roon sound good enough is to use HQPlayer.  With HQPlayer, Roon can sound really good and, in my opinion, much better than Roon by itself.  For those who don't know, Roon has long made HQPlayer an option for the sound engine, replacing Roon's own.  But for HQP to work with Aurender over the network, the Aurender will need to be made a "NAA"  (Network Audio Adaptor), which is HQP's version of Roon's "RAAT", which is the software Aurender had to install to work with Roon.

 

Roon with HQPlayer gets very close to Conductor, perhaps equal.  Roon alone, not so much.

 

I think for Roon to sound its best, Aurender would need to become a Roon Core, having the Roon software run on the Aurender instead of on a computer.

 

Realizing how unrealistic all of that would be, and having my years of experimentation with Roon's sound quality, I strategically opted to buy an AMD Aurender instead of an Intel one.  The deals at The Music Roon are fantastic for lightly used units.  For critical listening, I use Aurender's closed system and endure the dated Conductor GUI experience.  

 

Should Aurender see the light and add HQPlayer's "NAA" or have the Aurender be an actual Roon Core, I'll then and only then start taking their Roon implementation seriously.  I say that as a HUGE fan of the Roon library experience and unapologetically critical of Conductor's.

 

Granted, I have not heard Aurender's current implementation of Roon.  But it does not surprise me in the least that some would find the sound quality lacking.  In my opinion, without HQPlayer, Roon is unacceptable for critical listening, especially when you know what lays beyond the hill.

[HifiVoice]

12 hours ago, GJo said:

What steps specifically do you take switching from Roon to Conductor?

 

I pause the file playing in Roon, then press play on a file in Conductor. It plays instantly, and a few seconds later the artwork appears. 

[HifiVoice]

9 hours ago, VoicesInMyHead said:

I agree with how you describe the differences, but would actually stretch it to that Roon to me sounds muffled and flat in comparison.

 

I would say ROON sounds a bit more pushy and oppressive, and bit forward, but not muffled or flat to me. 

[GJo]

3 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

I have a loooooong history with Roon having owned a lifetime license for nearly 7 years.  I'm not an overly fussy audiophile who can break sound quality down into the tiny details, with the proper lingo that some can do.  I have a more macro view.  When something sounds goods to me, I know it.  When it's a bit off, I know that as well.  This won't get me a job a Stereophile or Audiophile Style, but it works for my personal journey.

 

It's worth remembering that the Roon Core plays a key role.  My Roon Core has always been either a MacBook Pro or a Mac Mini, connected to my system via a variety of streamers including an UltraRendu and an iFi ZenStream.  Perhaps results would be different using a purpose built Roon Core like a Nucleus, Titan (the new fancy one), or one of the few third party options (expensive).

 

That said, with my Mac based experience, Roon has never sounded that great.  For me, the only way to make Roon sound good enough is to use HQPlayer.  With HQPlayer, Roon can sound really good and, in my opinion, much better than Roon by itself.  For those who don't know, Roon has long made HQPlayer an option for the sound engine, replacing Roon's own.  But for HQP to work with Aurender over the network, the Aurender will need to be made a "NAA"  (Network Audio Adaptor), which is HQP's version of Roon's "RAAT", which is the software Aurender had to install to work with Roon.

 

Roon with HQPlayer gets very close to Conductor.  Roon alone, not so much.

 

I think for Roon to sound its best, Aurender would need to become a Roon Core, having the Roon software run on the Aurender instead of on a computer.

 

Realizing how unrealistic that would be, and having my years of experimentation with Roon's sound quality, I strategically opted to buy an AMD Aurender instead of an Intel one.  The deals at The Music Roon are fantastic for lightly used units.  For critical listening, I use Aurender's closed system and endure the dated Conductor GUI experience.  

 

Should Aurender see the light and add HQPlayer's "NAA" or have the Aurender be an actual Roon Core, I'll then and only then start taking their Roon implementation seriously.  I say that as a HUGE fan of the Roon library experience and unapologetically critical of Conductor's.

 

Granted, I have not heard Aurender's current implementation of Roon.  But it does not surprise me in the least that some would find the sound quality lacking.  In my opinion, with HQPlayer, Roon is unacceptable for critical listening, especially when you know what lays beyond the hill.

In my system, Roon Core is installed on a MacMini optimized for audio and connected to my home network via WiFi. No wired connection.

 

This configuration in my system has equaled self-contained Roon Core devices like Antipodes K50 and Rockna WaveDreamNET. 

 

 

[GJo]

4 minutes ago, HifiVoice said:

 

I pause the file playing in Roon, then press play on a file in Conductor. It plays instantly, and a few seconds later the artwork appears. 

Interesting. That process has not worked for me on the N30SA.

[DancingSea]

Just now, GJo said:

In my system, Roon Core is installed on a MacMini optimized for audio and connected to my home network via WiFi. No wired connection.

 

This configuration in my system has equaled self-contained Roon Core devices like Antipodes K50 and Rockna WaveDreamNET. 

 

 

Have you tried HQPlayer as Roon's sound engine?

[HifiVoice]

4 hours ago, GJo said:

That said, we all hear and evaluate differently. What he evaluates as small, you may consider large. Also, you may both discern varying characteristics.

 

When streaming ROON via Airplay to the Aurender, the SQ differences with Conductor were much larger.  

[GJo]

Just now, DancingSea said:

Have you tried HQPlayer as Roon's sound engine?

I haven't. 

 

I have tried to configure HQPlayer, but getting it up-and-running was frustrating and ultimately not worth the hassle.

[GJo]

6 minutes ago, HifiVoice said:

 

When streaming ROON via Airplay to the Aurender, the SQ differences with Conductor were much larger.  

Not surprising.

 

Airplay is not an ideal method to stream if audiophile quality is desired on the level we're discussing.

[DancingSea]

Just now, GJo said:

I haven't. 

 

I have tried to configure HQPlayer, but getting it up-and-running was frustrating and ultimately not worth the hassle.

 

Yes, HQPlayer has a steep initial learning curve.  But once you figure out it's byzantine GUI, it's actually quite easy to use with Roon.  Once setup, there's nothing else to do but launch HQP along with Roon, the rest is automatic.  From there one can easily tweak HQPlayer's settings for a variety of music.  I have 3 settings I prefer, and can quickly change them.

 

But it did take some dedication to learn HQP's language.

[HifiVoice]

4 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

Good sound quality stands or falls with how the music is recorded, mixed and mastered, and modern mastering (although it really should be called butchering) usually completely kills all dynamics and musicality. 

 

In classical music on the contrary, lots of good recording techniques and brilliant sounding records in the last years. 

 

3 hours ago, Anonamemouse said:

This guy can PERFECTLY tune a single string just by hearing alone. I trust him blindly. 

 

I can do that as well. When searching for a new guitar I tuned some guitars I tried out by hearing. The shop owner went for a tuning fork. "Not needed" I told her. She still did and checked, and my tuning was spot on (usually I deviate with like 0,5-1 Hz). I enjoyed the surprising look on her face. But, being tonal correct, doesn't mean you hear other things as good as well, like overall timbre and group delay. 

[HifiVoice]

11 minutes ago, GJo said:

In my system, Roon Core is installed on a MacMini optimized for audio and connected to my home network via WiFi. No wired connection.

 

This configuration in my system has equaled self-contained Roon Core devices like Antipodes K50 and Rockna WaveDreamNET. 

 

My Roon core runs on an iMac, wired to the main router. The Aurender is connected via an AirPort Express, that connects via WiFi to the main router, and is wired with ethernet to the Aurender. I also can stream to an Ayre EX-8 2.0, that is connected via a WiFi antenna connection. Both have zero problems. 

[NTWrong]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:18 AM, GJo said:

I listen to my N30SA in Critical Listening mode.
 

I have found that pressing play in Roon (or adding tracks to a playlist) turns off Critical Listening. I reported this to Beta Support. The reply did not clarify whether Critical Listening is a known feature that does not work with Roon, or if it’s a bug. 

 

Maybe access to the internet stream is among the “background functions” critical listening mode turns off. It makes sense that doing so would improve sound quality.

 

Looking again at the QuickStart Guide:

”Now that you have loaded your personal music collection to the Aurender and synced up with your streaming services, you’re ready to browse and play some music! Aurender’s playback engine operates on a “play queue” basis. When you select a song or group of songs to play, those files get cached to the internal solid state drive for best audio performance.”

 

If only it were true that songs chosen from streaming services got cached once you selected them, as the above text seems to imply! Then critical listening mode would work regardless. 
 

I don’t stream anyway so I have no skin in this game. But no wonder people are confused.

[HifiVoice]

8 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

Yes, HQPlayer has a steep initial learning curve.  But once you figure out it's byzantine GUI, it's actually quite easy to use with Roon.  Once setup, there's nothing else to do but launch HQP along with Roon, the rest is automatic.  From there one can easily tweak HQPlayer's settings for a variety of music.  I have 3 settings I prefer, and can quickly change them.

 

But it did take some dedication to learn HQP's language.

 

Can you still stream to the Aurender with HQPlayer in-between? 

[DancingSea]

25 minutes ago, HifiVoice said:

 

Can you still stream to the Aurender with HQPlayer in-between? 

 

Not without Aurender adding the "NAA" (Network Audio Adapter).  Which is HQP's version of Roon's RAAT.  It's no big deal for a company to add NAA, they just need the will to do so.  Even iFi has NAA on their $400 ZenStream.  With NAA, HQP works in the background as Roon's sound engine and all is available over the network.

 

I can also understand a company shying away from HQPlayer's NAA because of how convoluted HQP's GUI is.