New DAC from Merging Technologies for Home Audio Market

[bmoura]

This thing pretty much presses all the buttons for me.

 

Remains to be seen how good it will sound compared to other pricey DACs, if the $7500 figure for the 2 Channel version is true. There's some pretty stiff competition out there in the $5-10K (and above) DAC world.

 

Part of the appeal for many will be to own the same DAC circuitry used to record and prepare many of the DSD 128 and DSD 256 downloads out there.

 

Definitely on the "to hear" list for The Show in Newport Beach later this month.

[ted_b]

Brian, I am very interested in your feddback (Kal's too) on the sq of the NADAC (assuming you can get a handle on it within show environs). Merging certainly knows what they are doing on the AD end, but to produce a musically satisfying DAC/analog stage is not a no-brainer. Pro audio companies often have different sonic goals than the home music lover. Let's hop it all comes together.

[Miska]

I have dropouts using wireless on anything higher than 16bit/44.1kHz. Had to go wired even with an airport extreme in the same room.

 

Do you have any other wireless networks around? I have just one visible from neighbor.

[bmoura]

Brian, I am very interested in your feddback (Kal's too) on the sq of the NADAC (assuming you can get a handle on it within show environs). Merging certainly knows what they are doing on the AD end, but to produce a musically satisfying DAC/analog stage is not a no-brainer. Pro audio companies often have different sonic goals than the home music lover. Let's hop it all comes together.

 

Agreed. There are some excellent sounding DACs for music fans already (over 300 in the DSD market alone). Merging won't get a free ride there.

 

I haven't heard the NADAC so I'm wondering the same thing. I will drop by their demo in Newport Beach to be sure.

[astrotoy]

I won't be at the SHOW, but will be visiting Dom and Merging in Geneva next month to get a demo of the multichannel DAC then. Should be very interesting. As many of you know, I have been using Pyramix and the Merging Mykerinos card for my massive ripping project over the past 5 years. Very pleased with the results.

 

Larry

[Nes]

Do you have any other wireless networks around? I have just one visible from neighbor.

 

I only see a few usually. One or two from the neighbours. There is a separate guest WiFi network in the house.

[Miska]

I only see a few usually. One or two from the neighbours. There is a separate guest WiFi network in the house.

 

Remember that for proper wireless bandwidth with 802.11g you need to have empty channels on both sides (so if you use channel 6 you need to have no other APs on channels 5 and 7). With the fastest modes you need to have all channels empty.

 

Usually there are more free channels on 5 GHz band, also because it doesn't go through the walls as well. But that is also it's down side, it works best in open view.

 

In some cases it may be good idea to use external antenna for the wireless AP. At least location of the AP should be designed such way that there are minimum obstacles between the AP and devices using it.

[Nes]

Remember that for proper wireless bandwidth with 802.11g you need to have empty channels on both sides (so if you use channel 6 you need to have no other APs on channels 5 and 7). With the fastest modes you need to have all channels empty.

 

Usually there are more free channels on 5 GHz band, also because it doesn't go through the walls as well. But that is also it's down side, it works best in open view.

 

In some cases it may be good idea to use external antenna for the wireless AP. At least location of the AP should be designed such way that there are minimum obstacles between the AP and devices using it.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Will play around a bit with settings etc. Wired I have no issues whatsoever and enjoying the playback through HQPlayer.

[Bunpei]

Their official product page

NADAC | PRODUCT

says;

"The 8 channels of the ESS Sabre ES9008S Reference D/A converter are merged into 2 for improved linearity, greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor."

 

Isn't it any typo that they use ES9008S DAC chip? I wonder why they have not accepted ES9018S.

[ccellier]

Their official product page

NADAC | PRODUCT

says;

"The 8 channels of the ESS Sabre ES9008S Reference D/A converter are merged into 2 for improved linearity, greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor."

 

Isn't it any typo that they use ES9008S DAC chip? I wonder why they have not accepted ES9018S.

 

Hello Brian,

 

no this is not a typo. When deciding on which best DAC part to select for our range of Network converters a few years ago, we conducted extensive tests with both the ES9008 and ES9018 and found out that the ES9018 was exhibiting some issues at very low level, which made it impossible for us to validate its use for our products.

[Bunpei]

Wow! Is the founder of Merging Technologies, Mr. Claude Cellier, giving his direct answer to my question?

I appreciated it very much! The explanation made sense really.

[HDgeorge]

But isn't it too expensive using such cheap Dac chips?

 

And without any standard protocol among manufacturers and USB input I am wondering which are the customers target group?

[bmoura]

But isn't it too expensive using such cheap Dac chips?

 

And without any standard protocol among manufacturers and USB input I am wondering which are the customers target group?

 

Let's see. The first chance for music fans to own the same converter circuitry at home that is used in the studio and on location by many recording engineers and record companies producing Stereo and Multichannel SACDs and DSD Downloads up to Quad DSD. Who would be interested? A lot of people!

 

No USB input. True, but I've been wondering why more companies don't offer more than USB. Music transferred across the network with Ravenna. Very interesting. (And there are literally hundreds of DACs on the market today for those who want USB).

 

I think the Stereo and 8-Channel NADAC models will do quite well. The demos in Munch at High End Audio start later this week. We will see what the audio show attendees say.

[One and a half]

But isn't it too expensive using such cheap Dac chips?

 

And without any standard protocol among manufacturers and USB input I am wondering which are the customers target group?

 

Take a closer look at this quote from the NADAC site for the 2CH version : "The 8 channels of the ESS Sabre ES9008S Reference D/A converter are merged into 2 for improved linearity, greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor." Have a closer look on the implementation rather than the type of DAC used.

 

The implementation of even 8bit chips for certain tasks could exceed those for the 64bit variety... I remember an application that was the first of its kind to simulate the air movement caused by helicopter blades. Rather than use an advanced processor at the time (mid 70's) it was thought that very cheap 8 bit chips could be used en masse in a parallel computing system. This is how our brain works, so the article in Scientific American was quoted, hit multi channels at once and let the bits filter through to where they belong.

 

Modern Xeon chips use several processors in the one package, simialr approach. It's up to the software to control the process, even with 16 processors my Z800 still takesthe same time zipping large FLAC files for archiving on a dual processor machine, but use dbpoweramp to convert ALAC to FLAC lossless and it can process 100 files a minute.

 

Using multiple 'smaller' DACs, but working in parallel (some 'trickery' required) reduces the overall noise of the DAC substantially. Here's one example of the technique explained a little more. By the research conducted by Merging, (my guess) the ideal DAC for their design consisted of the lowest noise DAC, but on its own, not enough. By adding more processing DACs in the chain, the net overall effect of the whole DAC's noise would be bettered with this approach rather than use the 9018.

When very low level voltages are involved the value of noise is not that far behind either. The NADAC is quoted as some (insane) level of noise (which is great), the technology is there, why not use it. I welcome this technique, have no problem with it all.

[Hiro]

Take a closer look at this quote from the NADAC site for the 2CH version : "The 8 channels of the ESS Sabre ES9008S Reference D/A converter are merged into 2 for improved linearity, greater dynamic range and a lower noise floor." Have a closer look on the implementation rather than the type of DAC used.

 

The implementation of even 8bit chips for certain tasks could exceed those for the 64bit variety... I remember an application that was the first of its kind to simulate the air movement caused by helicopter blades. Rather than use an advanced processor at the time (mid 70's) it was thought that very cheap 8 bit chips could be used en masse in a parallel computing system. This is how our brain works, so the article in Scientific American was quoted, hit multi channels at once and let the bits filter through to where they belong.

 

Modern Xeon chips use several processors in the one package, simialr approach. It's up to the software to control the process, even with 16 processors my Z800 still takesthe same time zipping large FLAC files for archiving on a dual processor machine, but use dbpoweramp to convert ALAC to FLAC lossless and it can process 100 files a minute.

 

Using multiple 'smaller' DACs, but working in parallel (some 'trickery' required) reduces the overall noise of the DAC substantially. Here's one example of the technique explained a little more. By the research conducted by Merging, (my guess) the ideal DAC for their design consisted of the lowest noise DAC, but on its own, not enough. By adding more processing DACs in the chain, the net overall effect of the whole DAC's noise would be bettered with this approach rather than use the 9018.

When very low level voltages are involved the value of noise is not that far behind either. The NADAC is quoted as some (insane) level of noise (which is great), the technology is there, why not use it. I welcome this technique, have no problem with it all.

 

Bruno Putzeys' latest Mola Mola DAC which converts everything to 1-bit data stream outperforms any off-the-shelf DAC chip on the market, achieving top notch dynamic range, linearity, etc. Bruno predicts that it will take a decade, if not more, for DAC chip makers to equal the performance offered by his discrete DAC design. And here's where HDgeorge's gripe is, as I understand it, given such high price of the NADAC, why not design your own DAC from the ground up, instead of using standard chips.

[bmoura]

Bruno Putzeys' latest Mola Mola DAC which converts everything to 1-bit data stream outperforms any off-the-shelf DAC chip on the market, achieving top notch dynamic range, linearity, etc. Bruno predicts that it will take a decade, if not more, for DAC chip makers to equal the performance offered by his discrete DAC design. And here's where HDgeorge's gripe is, as I understand it, given such high price of the NADAC, why not design your own DAC from the ground up, instead of using standard chips.

 

Mola Mola, and other DAC makers, can claim to outperform their competitors. Some often do make such claims...

 

But the real test comes in listening to the products, not the chips used or the marketing claims. (And of course there are products like the Lampizator DSD DAC where there are no DAC Chips used at all!)

 

With Merging, they have made their decision on a DAC Chip to use and mentioned reasons why in an earlier comment in this thread. When the demos start, we can all judge what the entire package sounds like.

 

Right now, the jury is out on the NADAC since it hasn't been shown publicly yet. That changes this weekend in Munch and at month's end at The Show Newport. I'll be checking it out in Newport Beach and giving it a listen. We will see how it works and sounds then.

[Hiro]

Mola Mola, and other DAC makers, can claim to outperform their competitors. Some often do make such claims...

 

When your discrete DAC has THD and IMD that is so low that no current testing device can even measure it (estimated -150 dB), than such claim is a legitimate one.

 

Maybe future generations of OEM DAC chips will offer this kind of performance too, we'll see...

[One and a half]

Bruno Putzeys' latest Mola Mola DAC which converts everything to 1-bit data stream outperforms any off-the-shelf DAC chip on the market, achieving top notch dynamic range, linearity, etc. Bruno predicts that it will take a decade, if not more, for DAC chip makers to equal the performance offered by his discrete DAC design. And here's where HDgeorge's gripe is, as I understand it, given such high price of the NADAC, why not design your own DAC from the ground up, instead of using standard chips.

 

Thank you Hiro for providing one upmanship course of discussion which gets nowhere.

[Hiro]

Thank you Hiro for providing one upmanship course of discussion which gets nowhere.

 

Are you suggesting that designing discrete DACs or FPGA-based DACs leads nowhere? And there's no point in using anything else than the currently available OEM DAC chips?

[firedog]

I won't speak for the others, but I'll say that the technologies and the specs don't matter. All I care about is how it sounds. To quote an old saying, "there's lots ways to skin a cat". In other words, lots of ways to make a good sounding DAC. Some use off the shelf chips, some use FPGA, some use military (not audio) chips, some use no chip at all.

Getting caught up in saying one DAC must be better because of the spec sheet has no connection to reality.

[barrows]

Wow, lots of speculation and confusion here. A couple of things to think about and understand:

 

Any DAC using the ESS 9018 or the (lower performance) ESS 9008 is going to use 4 DACs paralleled per channel for stereo playback. This is one of the advantages available with the 8 channel ESS chips and is far from something special to the new Merging DAC.

 

I am a little wary of just another DAC using the ESS chips as something "special". not that I do believe in the possibility of very high performance from the ESS DAC chips (my own DACs use the 9018 in 4 DACs per channel stereo mode), but there already are lots of really good DACs using this chip (Auralic Vega). It appears to me that what might be nice with the NADAC is the Ravenna Ethernet protocols.

 

Anyway, I think that expecting awesome performance from something like this is a little much, but I am sure it will be well engineered. The suggestion that Merging might know something more than what existing high end companies do regarding DAC design is kind of ridiculous though.

 

Also, realize that other DACs at these kind of prices are often using proprietary DAC designs rather than OTS DAC chips. Additionally, also consider that any product built in Switzerland will come at a premium price versus just about any other country of origin (think Weiss and Nagra) so one will be paying a big premium (20% or more) for that.

[HDgeorge]

I will be visiting Munich and I am anxious to listen the Nadac, as others before me mentioned there is nothing special in this Dac except the Ravenna protocol so the price tag looks high.

 

(Although one protocol followed by one manufacturer only is stepping to fail)

 

But everything counts when you listen. If it is well made it will convince if not...well the competition is high.

 

I really do hope to like it.

 

Btw it's been so long since a new DAC emerges from dCS, anyone knows anything about that?

[One and a half]

Are you suggesting that designing discrete DACs or FPGA-based DACs leads nowhere? And there's no point in using anything else than the currently available OEM DAC chips?

 

No, you misunderstand, I own a DAC based on FPGA technology, why would I denigrate it?

 

The NADAC has not yet being released and you are condemning the device based on what chip Merging use? Under discussion is the NADAC only from what information we have. Prematurely condemning it based on the chip used, I respect you'd have better judgement and listen to the device first.

[dbrulhart]

And without any standard protocol among manufacturers and USB input I am wondering which are the customers target group?

 

Hello HDGeorges,

 

If you take a closer look at nadac.merging.com/networking you’ll see that the NADAC Ravenna connection offers a perfectly standard ASIO for Windows and CoreAudio w/ DoP for Mac OS, so any application, server or streamer supporting these standards can be connected to NADAC.

 

Merging has never developed any interfaces through USB and as no plan to do so. In our opinion this standard will sooner or later follow the path of FireWire, obsolescence, at least as far as AV streaming is concerned.

 

Don’t take this the wrong way, we have nothing against USB, but we always prefer betting on one technology ahead, instead of one which almost the whole industry is already complaining about.

 

This will be explained in details this week at High-End Munich Technology Stage on May 14th at 12:00, 15th at 10:30 and 16th at 17:00, or personally on our booth K08/J05 and in Newport Beach May 28th-31st.

 

Cheers,

 

Dominique

[dbrulhart]

Brian, I am very interested in your feddback (Kal's too) on the sq of the NADAC (assuming you can get a handle on it within show environs). Merging certainly knows what they are doing on the AD end, but to produce a musically satisfying DAC/analog stage is not a no-brainer. Pro audio companies often have different sonic goals than the home music lover. Let's hop it all comes together.

 

Hi ted_b,

 

Please don’t worry, we’ve put the same attention to every finest details on our DAs that we’ve put on our ADs. Satisfying music lovers is what we have been working on for 25 years, and this includes both the professionals and the final listeners… by the way, professionals also have a home after all !

 

Cheers,

 

Dominique