Why is SACD so restricted?

[R1200CL]

2 minutes ago, botrytis said:

The chip is used for the protection of the SACD format.

Aha. Well hopefully they can just reprogram it 😀

 

And I think AES/EBU is up to 8 channels also. 

[botrytis]

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Aha. Well hopefully they can just reprogram it 😀

 

And I think AES/EBU is up to 8 channels also. 

 

Well according to DCS, that is why they stopped making SACD players (if I remember the discussion we had at an audio event they were at).

[R1200CL]

If it became legal to output SACD digitally, either via USB or AES/EBU, I can see a marked for modifying old SACD players.

Maybe even output by fiber ethernet, but that sounds as a quite expensive modification.

[botrytis]

So, i.Link components have to have DTCP (Digital Transmission Copy Protection) otherwise both DVD and SACD cannot be played. hmmm..... 🙀

[cab33]

The real question is what benefit would Sony get from changing things now.

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

think that those of us who want our SACDs ripped have already cobbled together the way to do it.  Talk about a niche within a niche!

 And then when you do, you are often likely to find a file bandwidth limited to <22.05kHz , but with added out of band

HF noise !  Perhaps the HF noise appears to give the impression of added HF detail in some cases ?  😉

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, cab33 said:

The real question is what benefit would Sony get from changing things now.

Can’t think of anything else than goodwill, and a good reputation.  

[botrytis]

Sony stopped producing the chips 3-5 years ago, I was told. Sony has enough chips for themselves but will not sell them to other drive producers

[cab33]

40 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Can’t think of anything else than goodwill, and a good reputation.  

 

 

Then I predict it won't happen.  I'd bet they have agreements with other co.s that it would breach too.

[Solstice380]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

 And then when you do, you are often likely to find a file bandwidth limited to <22.05kHz , but with added out of band

HF noise !  Perhaps the HF noise appears to give the impression of added HF detail in some cases ?  😉

?

[sandyk]

21 minutes ago, Solstice380 said:

?

 There are plenty of SACDs that appear to have come from the original RBCD master as can be seen from the Frequency Spectrum in an Audio editing program such as Sound Forge.

There are also plenty of others where there is no musical information to even 22kHz, yet have been released on SACD where a normal RBCD would have sounded at least as good, unless you like the sound of added HF noise which may sometimes give the appearance of increased HF detail.

 

Click on the images several times to get a full screen image. 

[firedog]

15 hours ago, R1200CL said:

But is it being used as that as well these days ?

I believe it still is by Sony, at least with material that was archived that way. Don't know about newer recordings already in hi-res. Doesn't seem like there'd be a reason to convert them to DSD.

[firedog]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 There are plenty of SACDs that appear to have come from the original RBCD master as can be seen from the Frequency Spectrum in an Audio editing program such as Sound Forge.

There are also plenty of others where there is no musical information to even 22kHz, yet have been released on SACD where a normal RBCD would have sounded at least as good, unless you like the sound of added HF noise which may sometimes give the appearance of increased HF detail.

 

Click on the images several times to get a full screen image.

Yeah,for sure. SACDs came out before hi-res recording was widely done, so  they mostly were transfers from tape or from Redbook.

 

In the classical area the discs generally printed the source on the case insert, so people who cared were aware of what they were buying. Also a lot of SACD owners use the medium for multi-channel playback, and that is often the main reason they buy the SACD. 

 

If that's their main interest,  they aren't put off by the fact that the source was Redbook.

 

At one classical label they told me that is absolutely true, and their lovers of multichannel SACD don't care about the sample rate etc.,  of the source. On audiophile sites like this we forget that lots of people are music lovers and have good systems, but aren't interested in a lot of the aspects of the hobby that we think are important.

 

In addition even if the source was tape or Redbook, in many cases the SACD might  sound better than other versions, as they were viewed as specialist "audiophile" discs and often given very careful remastering. I have several that I think are like this.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

In addition even if the source was tape or Redbook, in many cases the SACD might  sound better than other versions, as they were viewed as specialist "audiophile" discs and often given very careful remastering. I have several that I think are like this.

This one sure isn't.  It's a Hybrid SACD from 2014 where none of the pop recording tracks on it even go to 21KHZ in the DSD version, except for out of band HF noise.

Anyone who thought that the DSD version of each would be better has been conned by Sony

[R1200CL]

So how can we find a way to get in touch with right department at Sony and find out what’s possible, and their thoughts about releasing the format ?

 

[Solstice380]

8 hours ago, sandyk said:

There are plenty of SACDs that appear to have come from the original RBCD master

Thanks for the explanation, I just wasn’t sure what you were referring to.   Yeah, those are out there.  Almost all of my SACDs are Sony, Audio Fidelity, MoFi, AP, etc, so although not tested I’m pretty confident those have the full bandwidth content.

[Solstice380]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

has been conned by Sony

LOL I guess I wouldn’t expect much out of a compilation CD!  Only thing better would be if it was disco.  Note that it was issued by SONY Taiwan, not Japan.

[sandyk]

9 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

LOL I guess I wouldn’t expect much out of a compilation CD!  Only thing better would be if it was disco.  Note that it was issued by SONY Taiwan, not Japan.

So what is the excuse for Dire Straits-Love Over Gold , where I posted it's Frequency Spectrum ,

or this one from America-Homecoming ? 😉

 

[fas42]

13 hours ago, sandyk said:

This one sure isn't.  It's a Hybrid SACD from 2014 where none of the pop recording tracks on it even go to 21KHZ in the DSD version, except for out of band HF noise.

Anyone who thought that the DSD version of each would be better has been conned by Sony

 

Good to see a Eurythmics' track on that - this is absolutely stunning music to listen to on a sorted rig; certainly doesn't require any DSD fiddling to make it "sound better", 😉.

[sandyk]

37 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Good to see a Eurythmics' track on that - this is absolutely stunning music to listen to on a sorted rig; certainly doesn't require any DSD fiddling to make it "sound better", 😉.

 This track is an excellent example. You can see the black area just after 20KHZ where the Redbook version left off with NO NOISE, and where SACD introduces it's out of band noise from around 23KHZ to around  37KHZ

 

Click on the picture a few times to see it near full screen size.

[Solstice380]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

So what is the excuse for Dire Straits-Love Over Gold , where I posted it's Frequency Spectrum ,

or this one from America-Homecoming ? 

Yo!  I’m not the one making the SACDs.  You’re being pedantic again.

[botrytis]

Again, blame the masters not the medium. If you want to blame anything, go there. it is not DSD 's fault.

 

DSD is a great format but it is only as good as what is transcribed to it.

[sandyk]

44 minutes ago, botrytis said:

DSD is a great format but it is only as good as what is transcribed to it.

 Just because you are unable to hear the effects of out of band HF noise just above 22KHZ doesn't mean that everyone else can't. To me, it sounds a little grainy compared with the RBCD version when the same mastering is used.

Barry Diament reports the same about SACD.

If there was genuine higher level HF content above 22KHZ it would most likely mask it. 

 

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 Just because you are unable to hear the effects of out of band HF noise just above 22KHZ doesn't mean that everyone else can't. To me, it sounds a little grainy compared with the RBCD version when the same mastering is used.

Barry Diament reports the same about SACD.

If there was other genuine higher level HF content above 22KHZ it would most likely mask it. 

 

 

My experience has been the exact opposite of yours. 

 

Are you listening to actual DSD files or DSD files converted to PCM?

[botrytis]

DSD files. My DAC can actually play DSD files w/o DOP.

 

I think you need to divorce the master from the format. Your choice. I have both good and bad sound DSD files. It is more based on the master than anything else. 

 

I think you just want to blame the format. You sound like the beginning of the CD era, when masters were from vinyl and converted to digital and sounded like crap.