LAN Input DACs

[Superdad]

For example when you seek with AirPlay it happens completely different way than with UPnP AV...

 

I once wrote a long analysis where I postulated that if Apple had opened AirPlay up early on (removing licensing and making APIs and systems known), that they would have achieved such hegemony that Android itself would never have gained ANY foothold.

 

AirPlay applications and devices we have not even thought of would exist, and people would be able to walk in anywhere and play their photos, videos, music, web, whatever--on whatever screen was nearby (or in the car, or to a friend's portable device).

 

Keeping AirPlay locked up the way they have is one of the most short-sighted things Apple has EVER done. I mean, imagine if they had never opened iOS to third-party apps. To me it is about on that scale.

[Audio_ELF]

UPnP AV was both complex and vague standard, so many of the devices couldn't really interoperate (exactly like SIP for VoIP). Plus it has some brain dead choices like using HTTP for streaming which you for example cannot seek without making a new GET-request. Then there needed to be DLNA organization with plug-fests to ensure some level of IOP. Too bad the big companies drove the DLNA spec so it mandates expensive codec licenses, etc. while still being restricted to non-audiophile content formats.

 

For example when you seek with AirPlay it happens completely different way than with UPnP AV...

At the end of the day Miska, I'm not trying to argue without about the good and bad decisions made in UPnP/DNLA, or saying it is easy to implement or anything like that.

 

What I am saying is two fold...

 

Companies such as Linn have made it work, made it work well and with a wide range of hardware. There are combinations which work well and some which are a little more flaky but generally if the renderer is built well it does appear to work well for an end user.

 

Second consumers do not care the technical ins and out of how difficult something is to implement. For example they see that Marantz get DSD and PCM to work over Ethernet with their £500 AV Receivers ... so quite understandably are frustrated that their Audio components can't manage the same.

 

Sitting there saying "oh yes, but the protocols are rubbish" just winds users up more (in my experience).

[rodrigaj]

At the end of the day Miska, I'm not trying to argue without about the good and bad decisions made in UPnP/DNLA, or saying it is easy to implement or anything like that.

 

What I am saying is two fold...

 

Companies such as Linn have made it work, made it work well and with a wide range of hardware. There are combinations which work well and some which are a little more flaky but generally if the renderer is built well it does appear to work well for an end user.

 

Second consumers do not care the technical ins and out of how difficult something is to implement. For example they see that Marantz get DSD and PCM to work over Ethernet with their £500 AV Receivers ... so quite understandably are frustrated that their Audio components can't manage the same.

 

Sitting there saying "oh yes, but the protocols are rubbish" just winds users up more (in my experience).

 

Engineers get special special satisfaction out of "elegant" solutions... "inelegant" solutions that work and are adapted widely cause them untold consternation.

[jabbr]

At the end of the day Miska, I'm not trying to argue without about the good and bad decisions made in UPnP/DNLA, or saying it is easy to implement or anything like that.

 

What I am saying is two fold...

 

Companies such as Linn have made it work, made it work well and with a wide range of hardware. There are combinations which work well and some which are a little more flaky but generally if the renderer is built well it does appear to work well for an end user.

 

Second consumers do not care the technical ins and out of how difficult something is to implement. For example they see that Marantz get DSD and PCM to work over Ethernet with their £500 AV Receivers ... so quite understandably are frustrated that their Audio components can't manage the same.

To me, the big use for DLNA/UPnP is so that we can play music and movies using our Sony PS3 which is also our Blu-ray player.

 

It has turned out that its far easier and better to attach a mac mini to our AV receiver (HDMI for video, Toslink for audio) and let iTunes manage the music library. In particular, using audiophile player software which is integrated with iTunes gives us the best of both worlds. The big problem with iTunes is that it doesn't handle DSD/DSF/DFF files which is why other software systems are attractive ... now if I could get JRiver's server to easily run on my OpenIndiana (solaris) server ...

 

Sitting there saying "oh yes, but the protocols are rubbish" just winds users up more (in my experience).

 

Nah, but using general purpose computers allow you to try out different protocols and run multiple protocols at the same time. I've been using DLNA/UPnP for years and have become increasingly underwhelmed at what it does. Similarly I've used Netatalk for years ... years ago it best SMB, but with SMB2 I've moved away from Netatalk and am using SMB. It's got great performance.

 

A huge advantage of custom rolling your own system from general purpose hardware and software (including lots of open source software) is that you can actually make a better long term solution.

 

DLNA works well when you don't have any other good access to the music.

[Habanero Monk]

Use an optical thunderbolt cable.

 

Wireless, properly implemented, it the most isolating form of connectivity there is.

 

I've read the thread and still unsure what problem is actually being solved.

[tranz]

Wireless, properly implemented, it the most isolating form of connectivity there is.

 

I've read the thread and still unsure what problem is actually being solved.

 

Hi Habanero Monk,

 

That is one key piece, and I am using a dedicated audio system wireless bridge powered by an lpsu.

 

However, you still need to get the audio file to the DAC. This is where the noisy USB, jittery SPDIF come into action in most systems, along with all the workarounds to make it sound ok.

 

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S but is clocked by the DAC that might logically solve much of this.

 

I for one would love to just have audio files sitting on a NAS, a wireless bridge for isolation, into the DAC via a shielded bluejeanscable-tested ethernet cable, with an iPAD as the remote. Done.

 

No more dicking around with OS tweaks and OS upgrade nightmares, no more kludgy playback software setups and upgrade nightmares, no more USB power cleaners, no more USB-SPDIF converters, no more audio computer startup/setup/tweaking/backup/fixing, and even a smaller power bill.

 

All this computer audio tweaking for me is not pleasure, in fact I hate it, as I would rather spend my time making or listening to music, but it is a necessity to get non-fatiguing high quality audio. Having moved from vinyl to the allure of the computer audio benefits, it has been bloody hard to get non-fatiguing sound, with a ridiculous amount of workarounds, and work.

 

Just simple pristine music playback of both pcm and dsd files, gaplessly of course. That is the end goal of this thread.

[Habanero Monk]

Hi Habanero Monk,

 

That is one key piece, and I am using a dedicated audio system wireless bridge powered by an lpsu.

 

However, you still need to get the audio file to the DAC. This is where the noisy USB, jittery SPDIF come into action in most systems, along with all the workarounds to make it sound ok.

 

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S but is clocked by the DAC that might logically solve much of this.

 

I for one would love to just have audio files sitting on a NAS, a wireless bridge for isolation, into the DAC via a shielded bluejeanscable-tested ethernet cable, with an iPAD as the remote. Done.

 

No more dicking around with OS tweaks and OS upgrade nightmares, no more kludgy playback software setups and upgrade nightmares, no more USB power cleaners, no more USB-SPDIF converters, no more audio computer startup/setup/tweaking/backup/fixing, and even a smaller power bill.

 

All this computer audio tweaking for me is not pleasure, in fact I hate it, as I would rather spend my time making or listening to music, but it is a necessity to get non-fatiguing high quality audio. Having moved from vinyl to the allure of the computer audio benefits, it has been bloody hard to get non-fatiguing sound, with a ridiculous amount of workarounds, and work.

 

Just simple pristine music playback of both pcm and dsd files. That is the end goal of this thread.

 

 

Sounds like people are making this stuff harder than it is. What about USB audio is insufficient? What is 'Noisy' about it? Even $4K and $8-10K DAC's have USB inputs.

 

Trust me guys like Emotiva, Bell Canto, Benchmark, Wyred, MyDAC etc have this figured out so you don't have to.

 

Want to tweak a Windows machine?

 

Turn off automatic updates

 

Go into MSCONFIG and strip everything out by choosing the windows services options in the appropriate tabs.

 

Don't install Java, Don't install Flash or simply turn off their update options.

 

Both my HTPC and 2.0 music PC simply RUN. I don't browse the Internet on them. I don't even run Anti-virus/malware etc...

 

My SQ is amazing. You are welcome to come on over.

[ericuco]

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S but is clocked by the DAC that might logically solve much of this.

 

I for one would love to just have audio files sitting on a NAS, a wireless bridge for isolation, into the DAC via a shielded bluejeanscable-tested ethernet cable, with an iPAD as the remote. Done.

 

The Twisted Pear guys have been working on something along this line although it is VERY MUCH a DIY project, not an average consumer type of setup. The I2S data comes out a Beagle Bone Black, etc. & straight into the DAC, no USB connection.

 

Building an open embedded audio appliance

[Superdad]

The Twisted Pear guys have been working on something along this line although it is VERY MUCH a DIY project, not an average consumer type of setup. The I2S data comes out a Beagle Bone Black, etc. & straight into the DAC, no USB connection.

 

Building an open embedded audio appliance

 

Yup. You are going to see more of this type of thing--in completed products--next year (not from me, just to be clear; I am just aware of some very cool projects going on). Don't be expecting to run Windows or OS X players on these things though.

 

For me the tricky part is that I'm going in the direction of running HQ Player and processor-intensive massive SRC/SDM, and the ARM-based boards these projects are using are under-power for such. But perfect as an NAA for HQ Player…

[tranz]

Just a few observations for which I have no explanation. Perhaps someone has tested it as well either using a scope or their ears but I am left confused and perhaps even a little disappointed. My desire was simplicity; NAS into a LAN input DAC.

 

It seems to matter, in my case, what you use to source a LAN Input when using DLNA/UPnP. Logically this does not make much sense but this is what I noticed in terms of noise floor:

 

1. An untweaked NAS (Synology in my case) over a gigabit wifi bridge (with LPSU) sounds worst

 

2. An untweaked NAS over a netgear switch (with LPSU) is a bit better

 

3. A tweaked Mac (fanless, OS tweaked, with LPSU for CPU and drives etc., audio files on TBolt with LPSU) running JRiver as DLNA server sounds better than the NAS as source

 

4. A tweaked Mac running MinimServer DLNA server sounds best

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers

[mayhem13]

 

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S but is clocked by the DAC that might logically solve much of this.

 

.

 

There is. The newest Airport Express via analog works exactly as you've expressed.

[mayhem13]

Just a few observations for which I have no explanation. Perhaps someone has tested it as well either using a scope or their ears but I am left confused and perhaps even a little disappointed. My desire was simplicity; NAS into a LAN input DAC.

 

It seems to matter, in my case, what you use to source a LAN Input when using DLNA/UPnP. Logically this does not make much sense but this is what I noticed in terms of noise floor:

 

1. An untweaked NAS (Synology in my case) over a gigabit wifi bridge (with LPSU) sounds worst

 

2. An untweaked NAS over a netgear switch (with LPSU) is a bit better

 

3. A tweaked Mac (fanless, OS tweaked, with LPSU for CPU and drives etc., audio files on TBolt with LPSU) running JRiver as DLNA server sounds better than the NAS as source

 

4. A tweaked Mac running MinimServer DLNA server sounds best

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers

 

Thoughts?...yes......your ear/brain interface has a very suggestive weakness. If your observations were correct, then standard HiDef downloads would be subject to degredation during download. Is this what you'd like to suggest? Should be begin evaluate our IP's for audiophile quality file transfers?

[Superdad]

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S but is clocked by the DAC that might logically solve much of this.

 

Well that is the USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge solution that will be licensed to OEMs by UpTone/Swenson in 2015. No OS, no big processor, no DLNA, no IP addresses to fuss with; works with ALL player s/w (USB>Ethernet dongle is and appears as an XMOS async-USB sound card capable of 32/384 or DoP--without drivers under OS X, with standard XMOS/Thesycon drivers under Windows, etc.).

 

And Tranz, your ranking of SQ for the configurations you tired does particularly surprise me. But what did you have the NAS units connected to as the renderer (i.e. the device connected to your DAC)?

[Distinctive]

There is. The newest Airport Express via analog works exactly as you've expressed.

Or the DirectStream with Bridge module.

[tranz]

Thoughts?...yes......your ear/brain interface has a very suggestive weakness. If your observations were correct, then standard HiDef downloads would be subject to degredation during download. Is this what you'd like to suggest? Should be begin evaluate our IP's for audiophile quality file transfers?

 

Thanks Mayhem13,

 

Downloading files seems a bit different from streaming as most streamers do not load complete files/songs. Within a second or so of disconnecting the LAN cable, the music cuts out.

 

If taking video streaming as an example, there are many ways of cleaning or mucking up picture quality showing on my tv, e.g. pixelation issues.

 

Cheers

[prot]

...

Downloading files seems a bit different from streaming as most streamers do not load complete files/songs. Within a second or so of disconnecting the LAN cable, the music cuts out.

...

I guess that is called expert-talk on CA nowadays .... no comment.

 

This thread so went downhill when that msb renderer "wonder" came in ... which btw is some sort of a $50 raspberry-pi thingie that the "friendly and competent" ppl of msb sell for $2000 to every "audiophile". And btw2, that "renderer" is also ... wait for it ... a COMPUTER.

Yap, there is NoWayOut

[Jabs1542]

Well that is the USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge solution that will be licensed to OEMs by UpTone/Swenson in 2015. No OS, no big processor, no DLNA, no IP addresses to fuss with; works with ALL player s/w (USB>Ethernet dongle is and appears as an XMOS async-USB sound card capable of 32/384 or DoP--without drivers under OS X, with standard XMOS/Thesycon drivers under Windows, etc.).

 

And Tranz, your ranking of SQ for the configurations you tired does particularly surprise me. But what did you have the NAS units connected to as the renderer (i.e. the device connected to your DAC)?

 

Are you using the Ethernet wire as an interconnect cable (not passing IP traffic on a network)?

[prot]

....

 

Now if there is a well implemented LAN input where data goes directly into I2S ....

 

You prolly do not realize it but the only man that can do that for you is named Jesus ... and I'm almost serious ... transforming the audio bits coming over ethernet (e.g. as flacs from the Nas) into i2s signal is pretty much same as converting water into wine ... unless of course you put a computer in the middle ... or satan as you call it

[tranz]

Well that is the USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge solution that will be licensed to OEMs by UpTone/Swenson in 2015. No OS, no big processor, no DLNA, no IP addresses to fuss with; works with ALL player s/w (USB>Ethernet dongle is and appears as an XMOS async-USB sound card capable of 32/384 or DoP--without drivers under OS X, with standard XMOS/Thesycon drivers under Windows, etc.).

 

And Tranz, your ranking of SQ for the configurations you tired does particularly surprise me. But what did you have the NAS units connected to as the renderer (i.e. the device connected to your DAC)?

 

Hi Superdad,

 

Looking forward to it.

 

Me too, as I expected and really wanted the NAS over a wifi bridge to be fatigueless.

 

I have been playing around with a Naim streamer/renderer recently with separate power supply.

[tranz]

I guess that is called expert-talk on CA nowadays .... no comment.

 

This thread so went downhill when that msb renderer "wonder" came in ... which btw is some sort of a $50 raspberry-pi thingie that the "friendly and competent" ppl of msb sell for $2000 to every "audiophile". And btw2, that "renderer" is also ... wait for it ... a COMPUTER.

Yap, there is NoWayOut

 

Hi Prot,

 

You already made a comment, so please finish your thought. Who said this was "expert-talk"?

 

I am throwing an unexpected and illogical outcome into the group to see if there is something I may be overlooking as I am always open to learning.

 

So you have heard the MSB input, as I would like to check that thing out? Why is MSB downhill? What is your current favourite streamer?

 

Of course it all requires computer bits, but it is the design and implementation that make the difference. There was an interesting read on what effort Naim has taken in their streamers to lower noise and take care of power supply.

 

 

You prolly do not realize it but the only man that can do that for you is named Jesus ... and I'm almost serious ... transforming the audio bits coming over ethernet (e.g. as flacs from the Nas) into i2s signal is pretty much same as converting water into wine ... unless of course you put a computer in the middle ... or satan as you call it

 

Jesus has done great work over at Sonore.

 

My point there should be seen in the context of bypassing the SPDIF conversion and bypassing USB connection.

 

Not sure who this 'prolly' is you refer to quite often.

 

Cheers

[Superdad]

Are you using the Ethernet wire as an interconnect cable (not passing IP traffic on a network)?

 

Still Ethernet packets, just pairing the two (through any 100Mbps or greater Ethernet switch) using MAC addresses instead of IP addresses. John has written code that breaks apart the USB stack in a certain spot, converts to Ethernet, then picks up part of the protocol again at the other end. One of the cool things is all the code he has ripped out (of the XMOS USB 2.0 reference source code) in the process.

 

And again, a big part of the SQ is not having the whole UPnP/DLNA model in the way. BTW, both the PS Audio Bridge and the MSB LAN modules are UPnP/DLNA renderers, with all the complexity and s/w issues that come with it--just take a look at the big boards with processors. With our USB>Ethernet Audio Bridge, the DAC end board will have just a tiny Ethernet PHY chip, an XMOS chip (and clock for it and the PHY), a couple of small logic chips, low noise voltage regulators and some isolators. Will probably be about 40mm square.

[Superdad]

You prolly do not realize it but the only man that can do that for you is named Jesus..

 

That's funny, since a very good Ethernet>I2S box, the SONORE Signature Series Rendu, comes from a fellow named Jesus!

[Superdad]

Hi Prot,

 

You already made a comment, so please finish your thought. ...

 

Sorry Tranz, but I am not sure how much you have encountered of Mr. "prot" first hand in other threads. Sad to say, but since he has shown up, I have yet to see him contribute any information of any value to anyone here at CA on almost any topic. He just shows up in these threads to bait, taunt and tease. Best just ignore rather than engage him. Or at least, don't expect to get much from the exchange except a sour taste.

 

Best,

Alex C.

 

P.S. His constant use of the term "prolly" is his shorthand for the word probably--a savings of one letter.

[YashN]

Sounds good, eh? A pipe dream? No actually. Bur it can not be done entirely in sofware.

John Swenson and I have been working on just such a solution for a very long time. We are trying to move it closer (its been idling on the back burner this year but is moving again), and it is a solution that may take three forms business wise: as a licensed module, as a DIY board set, and as a retail product (but it won't output USB--that requrires it be a host and thus a computer processor involved; and our own crazy DAC ambitions are going to take a LOT of money to capitalize). I can't reveal more of the details at this time, and honestly you may not see anything for at least 6 months more.

Plus I am told that others may be woking along the same lines. So keep your eyes peeled. We are all watching for that unicorn-- the elusive Ethernet DAC!

 

Regards,

Alex C.

 

This is going to be really good, Alex.

[YashN]

Wireless, properly implemented, it the most isolating form of connectivity there is.

 

Any pointers on why it is? There could be similar issues with extra noise because of packets processing requiring power during spikes, but maybe wireless is easier to isolate?