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realhifi

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So, the new darlings of the streaming world (Qobuz and Wimp) will be coming soon to the US so we can stream cd quality music if i am understanding this right.

 

Pretty much everyone involved in high fidelity reproduction for the last 40 yrs or so has lamented at one time or another about the backwards direction that cd, with it's loss of information, has taken reproduced sound quality. Now it is to become the "new" standard all over again? Correct me if I'm wrong but somehow this doesn't feel like forward progress to me. With Sony, HDTracks, PONO, etc, etc all working hard to bring a new level of sound quality to digital music it just feels like a backward step in the evolution of recorded sound. When you listen to all the testimonials (on PONO) from artist after artist about the amazing differences between even 16/44 to 24/96 and almost to a person lamenting the flat lifeless sound of a CD it really makes me wonder what the hell is going on here?

 

My question is this, is this a diversion from the battle to higher standards or are we simply ready to accept "cd" quality sound as THE standard moving forward just because it's better than the abysmal crap that has been the new standard for the last 10 yrs or so?

David

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So, the new darlings of the streaming world (Qobuz and Wimp) will be coming soon to the US so we can stream cd quality music if i am understanding this right.

 

Pretty much everyone involved in high fidelity reproduction for the last 40 yrs or so has lamented at one time or another about the backwards direction that cd, with it's loss of information, has taken reproduced sound quality. Now it is to become the "new" standard all over again? Correct me if I'm wrong but somehow this doesn't feel like forward progress to me. With Sony, HDTracks, PONO, etc, etc all working hard to bring a new level of sound quality to digital music it just feels like a backward step in the evolution of recorded sound. When you listen to all the testimonials (on PONO) from artist after artist about the amazing differences between even 16/44 to 24/96 and almost to a person lamenting the flat lifeless sound of a CD it really makes me wonder what the hell is going on here?

 

My question is this, is this a diversion from the battle to higher standards or are we simply ready to accept "cd" quality sound as THE standard moving forward just because it's better than the abysmal crap that has been the new standard for the last 10 yrs or so?

 

My guess is that the answer is some sort of linear combination of the following:

 

(1) The vast majority of music is not available in anything exceeding CD quality.

 

(2) The PONO testimonials are a sales pitch. It is quite possible these folks cannot hear a difference with their eyes closed, or are playing it a bit loose with the truth.

 

(3) There is little credible evidence that DDD recorded and produced CDs are in any way inferior to vinyl recordings.

 

(4) 24 bit 96kHz files are quite big, and therefore inherently more difficult and expensive to stream in real time.

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So, the new darlings of the streaming world (Qobuz and Wimp) will be coming soon to the US so we can stream cd quality music if i am understanding this right.

With Sony, HDTracks, PONO, etc, etc all working hard to bring a new level of sound quality to digital music it just feels like a backward step in the evolution of recorded sound.

so?

 

I didn't know that Sony, HD Tracks, PONO were streaming hirez music.

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All of the companies that are getting into the digital domain, via streaming, downloads or mental telepathy should quit making announcements until they have a service to sell.

 

"The function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought", Sir Thomas Beecham. 

 

 

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I continue to be amazed how good 44.1/16 files can sound. Every time it seems every bit of information has been revealed, a new software or technique reveals there is still higher levels of information stored in the files.

This to me does not mean higher bit rate is not better. Just that 44.1/16 can be incredible.

 

2012 Mac Mini, i5 - 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM. SSD,  PM/PV software, Focusrite Clarett 4Pre 4 channel interface. Daysequerra M4.0X Broadcast monitor., My_Ref Evolution rev a , Klipsch La Scala II, Blue Sky Sub 12

Clarett used as ADC for vinyl rips.

Corning Optical Thunderbolt cable used to connect computer to 4Pre. Dac fed by iFi iPower and Noise Trapper isolation transformer. 

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I continue to be amazed how good 44.1/16 files can sound. Every time it seems every bit of information has been revealed, a new software or technique reveals there is still higher levels of information stored in the files.

This to me does not mean higher bit rate is not better. Just that 44.1/16 can be incredible.

Personally, I, am not amazed by it. In fact, anything less than 24/88.2 sounds fairly mediocre to me at best.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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I have to agree with both Panelhead and spdif-usb which may seem strange. The answer is that it all depends on the content. I have some CDs that absolutely amaze me while I also have a lot that are plain crap to listen to.

 

The fact the Qobuz and WIMP will be streaming CD quality is great as it is better than the other streaming services. The challenge is though that a poor recording or mastering will sound like crap no matter how it is streamed.

 

So, it seems there are two challenges in the industry, first is making better quality and the second is delivering it. Pono seems to be pushing on both of these. Qobus and Wimp definitely pushing the delivery end of things for streaming while HD Tracks and others are pushing that high end for downloaded tracks. Challenge is that to improve the listening experience both need to be improved.

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So, the new darlings of the streaming world (Qobuz and Wimp) will be coming soon to the US so we can stream cd quality music if i am understanding this right.

 

Pretty much everyone involved in high fidelity reproduction for the last 40 yrs or so has lamented at one time or another about the backwards direction that cd, with it's loss of information, has taken reproduced sound quality. Now it is to become the "new" standard all over again? Correct me if I'm wrong but somehow this doesn't feel like forward progress to me. With Sony, HDTracks, PONO, etc, etc all working hard to bring a new level of sound quality to digital music it just feels like a backward step in the evolution of recorded sound. When you listen to all the testimonials (on PONO) from artist after artist about the amazing differences between even 16/44 to 24/96 and almost to a person lamenting the flat lifeless sound of a CD it really makes me wonder what the hell is going on here?

 

My question is this, is this a diversion from the battle to higher standards or are we simply ready to accept "cd" quality sound as THE standard moving forward just because it's better than the abysmal crap that has been the new standard for the last 10 yrs or so?

 

You're kidding, right? Either that, or you've never listened to a well recorded/produced cd. I don't need to listen any further than one of those. Unfortunately, they (quality cds) don't rule like compressed over produced crappy cds loaded with mediocre music do.

 

-Chris

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You're kidding, right? Either that, or you've never listened to a well recorded/produced cd. I don't need to listen any further than one of those. Unfortunately, they (quality cds) don't rule like compressed over produced crappy cds loaded with mediocre music do.

 

-Chris

If you are unable to hear the fact 16/44.1 PCM sounds quite terrible even when it's well recorded and produced, you should more than probably just start to listen to some real music right now. Either that, or you might want to choose a different hobby.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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Great post!.......I'm sure this kind of rhetoric is just what the audio doctors order to keep the hobby strong and sustainable. Buy more stuff to play bigger files because what one has is never ever enough! There's a forest through that sea of trees, I promise.

 

Lol! One way to think about it. The other is buy a decent turntable and then buy used records cheap and buy new ones that you could actually give to your kids down the road.

David

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If you are unable to hear the fact 16/44.1 PCM sounds quite terrible even when it's well recorded and produced, you should more than probably just start to listen to some real music right now. Either that, or you might want to choose a different hobby.

 

Now there's some real sense. I should give up music that I really enjoy (well recorded cds) because you think they're crap.

 

As to listening to real music. I grew up in a family of musicians and have been a musician for all my life. And yes, sometimes I've listened to myself and the musicians I've played with. Is that real enough?

 

-Chris

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You're kidding, right? Either that, or you've never listened to a well recorded/produced cd. I don't need to listen any further than one of those. Unfortunately, they (quality cds) don't rule like compressed over produced crappy cds loaded with mediocre music do.

 

-Chris

 

Not meant as a damnation of 16/44 just a simple question whether it is going to be the standard moving forward. I listen and enjoy cd quality sound all the time but do I wish we were moving forward? You bet I am.

David

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Not meant as a damnation of 16/44 just a simple question whether it is going to be the standard moving forward. I listen and enjoy cd quality sound all the time but do I wish we were moving forward? You bet I am.

 

You're so impatient. This is a move forward. Up until now, as far as I know, there has been only lossy compressed streaming audio in the U.S.

 

Hi-rez streaming is not likely to happen soon for various reasons, among them lack of demand and high price. And I think it would be a minor improvement for a very select few (if any improvement at all) when a real advance could be had at the recording and musical level of the industry.

 

-Chris

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You're so impatient. This is a move forward. Up until now, as far as I know, there has been only lossy compressed streaming audio in the U.S.

 

Hi-rez streaming is not likely to happen soon for various reasons, among them lack of demand and high price. And I think it would be a minor improvement for a very select few (if any improvement at all) when a real advance could be had at the recording and musical level of the industry.

 

-Chris

 

Is it really any more than a short term gain given that the artists are going to be paid pittances for their efforts ?

It all seems to me to be driven by the desire of many to pay even less for their music, and preferably have it subsidised by perhaps advertising at no cost to them ? What REAL incentive is there for up and coming artists with these streaming models ?

It's all so damned short sighted !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Now there's some real sense. I should give up music that I really enjoy (well recorded cds) because you think they're crap.

 

As to listening to real music. I grew up in a family of musicians and have been a musician for all my life. And yes, sometimes I've listened to myself and the musicians I've played with. Is that real enough?

 

-Chris

I don't just think they're crap. I can actually hear they're crappier than crap so, by saying they're crap, I was putting it mildly.

 

Further, it is a known fact most musicians are not truly interested in sound quality. Quality of the music, sure (albeit even that is not necessarily always such a priority anymore these days so I am willing to greet you with the benefit of the doubt about that), but that's about as far as it usually goes........

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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Is it really any more than a short term gain given that the artists are going to be paid pittances for their efforts ?

It all seems to me to be driven by the desire of many to pay even less for their music, and preferably have it subsidised by perhaps advertising at no cost to them ? What REAL incentive is there for up and coming artists with these streaming models ?

It's all so damned short sighted !

It's all about streaming more money into 1 percent of all pockets. Some people ought to listen to AC⚡DC from time to time.

If you had the memory of a goldfish, maybe it would work.
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(4) 24 bit 96kHz files are quite big, and therefore inherently more difficult and expensive to stream in real time.

 

This is really not even slightest issue these days. Netflix and Youtube are streaming 1080p and 4k content. FLAC compressed 96/24/2 takes about 2 Mbps bandwidth. That's what Netflix takes for SD video playback...

 

Netflix 4k averages 16 Mbps with peaks up to 20 Mbps. (works even over 4G mobile network here)

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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You're so impatient. This is a move forward. Up until now, as far as I know, there has been only lossy compressed streaming audio in the U.S.

 

Hi-rez streaming is not likely to happen soon for various reasons, among them lack of demand and high price. And I think it would be a minor improvement for a very select few (if any improvement at all) when a real advance could be had at the recording and musical level of the industry.

 

-Chris

 

You have read me wrong. I am not looking for hi-Rez streaming.

David

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I don't just think they're crap. I can actually hear they're crappier than crap so, by saying they're crap, I was putting it mildly.

 

I think you missed my point. But you do get an "A" for avoiding the topic and going literal so well.

 

Further, it is a known fact most musicians are not truly interested in sound quality. Quality of the music, sure (albeit even that is not necessarily always such a priority anymore these days so I am willing to greet you with the benefit of the doubt about that), but that's about as far as it usually goes........

 

I love "known facts" when it comes to how others perceive things and what others are truly interested in, especially when it involves unknown others.

 

I suppose great and good musicians spend so much time and money on their instruments because.... ahh, never mind.

 

-Chris

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I don't just think they're crap. I can actually hear they're crappier than crap so, by saying they're crap, I was putting it mildly.

 

Perhaps you and Theresa should start a club. The membership might be a bit small as most of here have many Redbook CDs that don't sound "crappier than crap".

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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You have read me wrong. I am not looking for hi-Rez streaming.

 

Well if I read you wrong you might want to reread your OP. The first thing you talk about is streaming in cd quality. And then you lament the "new standard" cd quality. Huh?

 

The only possible new standard re cd quality is in streaming and that's far from standard for the time being. As to other forms of media, it's the "old" standard which is slowly being chipped away at by other methods. If they'll do anymore than chip is besides the point for your argument.

 

-Chris

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