Vintage Speakers vs New

[mayhem13]

It's quite ok to have differing opinions Bill. No harm, no foul.

 

Truthfully, when we look at driver technology today from where it was 20-30 years ago sadly things haven't progressed much.....or at least with the pace of advances in tech in other areas such as electronics, optics, medicine, etc.

[Paul R]

Hi there mayhem13, Do you have experience with either one of those, great, speakers? I don't. I haven't seen an pair of IRSs for sale in a good while. Good luck to anyone searching for a pair of IRSs, and the Rogers LS3/5A falls squarely in the nostalgia category. I don't mean to snark or insult the merits of these speakers. I am sure they are loved. I stated my point.

 

Lot to say for that point. For example, computer modeling and tasks like finite element analysis are easily within the computing power now of a $1000 personal computer. And audio designers are using that capability in spades. Paul Barton, for example, designs speakers that way, even if the final voicing is still done by ear. The end result is some world class speakers at bargain basement prices.

 

I would contend however, that the best of yesterday is often still competitive with comparable products today. Why would anyone favor them otherwise?

[4est]

Yup! Regardless of what the manufacture's say, little has changed appreciably.

 

I would contend however, that the best of yesterday is often still competitive with comparable products today. Why would anyone favor them otherwise?

[pooger]

It's quite ok to have differing opinions Bill. No harm, no foul.

 

Truthfully, when we look at driver technology today from where it was 20-30 years ago sadly things haven't progressed much.....or at least with the pace of advances in tech in other areas such as electronics, optics, medicine, etc.

 

I have the totally opposite opinion-- that speakers, overall, have advanced more than audio electronics (taking digital out of the argument). From both the raw drivers (diaphragm material, suspension systems, and magnet structures-- these have advanced less than the other parts of speaker design, but still have advanced) to the enclosures, where diffraction and phase alignment is finally being controlled at even lower price points. And crossovers typically use better components. This is not to say that 30 years ago there weren't great speakers, there absolutely were. DQ 10s were my first good set of speakers, but they can be easily bested by speakers selling for a comparable cost today. To use a system like the IRS as an example of old design is pushing some; this was a statement product, one that was never built as a commercially viable system, other than at the true hi end. So one would need to look at the Ichiban and other cost no object electronics from then also-- has there been any real advances in analog audio since then?

 

Truth be told though, my electronics (Rowland and Pass) are also 20+ years old. But I haven't seen (or heard) anything to make me think that well executed class A designs have been bested by any new technologies. Perhaps by some even older technologies SE triode, OTL amps, etc., but are there new classes of electronics that have made great strides? Oh-- cables truly have, but perhaps I shouldn't mention that...

[Bill Lord]

AH I got suckered in to this one.

 

Hi All, There are two things here, and one matters.

 

One, older speakers sound great and are perfectly fine for use today. I think this is accepted. We can talk this at length, but it won't get us anywhere. Too subjective.

 

Two, the matter at hand: Old vs New designs. Ladies & Gentlemen, newer Loudspeakers are simply better. Technology, Knowledge, and Manufacturing create superior designs- all better. No griping about overseas or non host country of business production- Its a Global Market.

 

Take the Focal Grande Utopia and Wilson X2 , both considered State of the Art, both outrageously expensive, but represent some of pinnacles of technology. They are objectively better. Now, subjectively you can argue about what sounds better, that's up to you.

 

The thing I have seen with every speaker topic is the "what sounds better"-which is that it's almost non question. There are generalizations and some objectivity there(to what sounds better), but there so much room for preference.

 

If you like your sealed vintage speaker. Get some while they last. That's what is great about this hobby, and you are only limited by budget and personal preference. :-)

[Paul R]

LOL! I will buy off on your ideas with one little caveat - the technology for loud speakers has not changed, but the implementation has been refined. The last actual technological different speakers might have been Planers or perhaps Electrostatics. (grin)

 

-Paul

 

 

AH I got suckered in to this one.

 

Hi All, There are two things here, and one matters.

 

One, older speakers sound great and are perfectly fine for use today. I think this is accepted. We can talk this at length, but it won't get us anywhere. Too subjective.

 

Two, the matter at hand: Old vs New designs. Ladies & Gentlemen, newer Loudspeakers are simply better. Technology, Knowledge, and Manufacturing create superior designs- all better. No griping about overseas or non host country of business production- Its a Global Market.

 

Take the Focal Grande Utopia and Wilson X2 , both considered State of the Art, both outrageously expensive, but represent some of pinnacles of technology. They are objectively better. Now, subjectively you can argue about what sounds better, that's up to you.

 

The thing I have seen with every speaker topic is the "what sounds better"-which is that it's almost non question. There are generalizations and some objectivity there(to what sounds better), but there so much room for preference.

 

If you like your sealed vintage speaker. Get some while they last. That's what is great about this hobby, and you are only limited by budget and personal preference. :-)

[esldude]

I voted for planars of course.

 

Now I think planar's have advanced much less than other types of speakers over the last 30 years. Cone and boxes are much improved to me. I do agree some of the better of the old speakers could be good, but plenty more could be pretty laughable or horrendous.

[Harpy]

I run vintage for mainly for budget constraints and to have input in rebuilding. If you can find vintage speakers you like, and that are rebuildable, save it from the scape heap and save some history. You can still get some very good sound from 30 40 year old equipment, but it's not state of the art. Vintage speakers are more like traveling back in time to that era. At least that's the way I look at it.

[blueixus]

A couple of observations about this discussion -

 

1) Why are modern speakers referred to as ported and vintage speakers referred to as sealed?

 

The vaste array of todays speakers are ported but I see this more as a marketing trick. The port or helmholtz resonator, when applied to speakers, is clever device that tricks nature so giving a speaker the ability to produce a lower frequency response. This looks good on the spec sheets but is not without a price - time delay or poor transient response. Even the name usually applied to this 'Bass Reflex' is deceptive , as it should be Bass 'slow' reflex.

 

2) The technology in loudspeakers has not changed much, true but the manufacturing has improved whether it is the cross over components or the drive units. Take an old pair of speakers and replace/renew the crossover components and they can sound very impressive.

 

Personally I can't fully agree that modern speakers are truly better, they are better marketed and have better components but their design is often flawed to support the marketing. There is one big caveat to this.

 

The computer design and simulation tools available to the modern speaker designer (eg LinearX) are light years ahead of the old back of a envelope style formula's that were used in the past.

 

So for me whilst I can get very excited about horns and panels but I can't quite manage them in my own home.......the optimum 'practical' speaker is a sealed modern designed speaker.....

[mayhem13]

A couple of observations about this discussion -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......the optimum 'practical' speaker is a sealed modern designed speaker.....

 

Sorry with no insult intended but this statement is a poor generalization. While a woofer in a sealed alignment will have advantages in controlled bass response, there's still the critical midbass and midrange response that comprises a substantial part of the range out ears are most sensitive to. In this aspect, an open baffle or box less speaker would be the optimum alignment as the rearward radiation of the cone is not forced back at and through the cone, smearing the response. This is more often than not NOT a practical approach for many as such speakers require significant distance from boundaries to operate properly. With that being said, most speaker designers are compromises best chosen with regards to the room they will be used in. Constraints on placement, size, available amplifier current and cost can be extremely advantageous if you understand them.

 

There's plenty of other parameters that will affect performance....too many in fact to list here and still be helpful without extensive explanation.

 

Maybe I'll do a blog on speaker technology and characteristics some day.

[blueixus]

Rest assured I don't feel insulted and there is much truth in what you say about midrange feedback through the cones and I could/should have been more specific in my comments..it is all compromises I just feel the ported approach is one of the worst....your blog will be interesting.....

[Paul R]

A couple of observations about this discussion -

 

1) Why are modern speakers referred to as ported and vintage speakers referred to as sealed?

 

The Sealed/Ported isn't really referring to vintage vs. modern. It is just (arguably) the best vintage speakers were usually not ported, or else were open baffle or some other technology besides "ported." Initially, ports were cheap ways to get that 100hz bass boom thing going on, and it took a lot of technical refinement and a very large amount of work to get to the really good "ported" speakers we have today.

 

Usually when I say "sealed" I am talking about Acoustic Suspension speakers, where the air inside the box actually damps the bass and makes the speaker behave properly. A ported speaker, such as a "bass reflex" or "tuned port" really just manages the bass in a manner similar to an acoustic suspension design, but instead of using a specific volume of air in the box, they use a port (a hole in the speaker) to relieve a specific resonance. End result in both cases is the bass is properly managed, and either technology can sound really really good.

 

"Modern" in regards to port designs refers to the well designed and well implemented stuff we have around today, and is represented by any number of speaker designs from many different companies. The opposite would be something like a 1980's Emerson Boombox- with ports that were not designed so much for sound as for display. Horrid sounding little beasties they were and still are. When some of the big names like Advent were sold off, the later offerings with those brand names were also horrid. Cheap crap stuffed into a box with a high end name plastered on it. (shudder...)

 

To my ears, the smooth clean controlled bass and delicate but not ear ripping sound of most of the Acoustic Suspension designs is better than many of the low to mid range ported designs today. More listenable, less stress inducing. Not lacking in accuracy or clarity, and not euphonic. Just different, more refined perhaps. On pure specs, something like a $300 set of Polks easily outclasses a lot of the vintage gear, but sound wise, ah ... there's the kicker.

 

And of course, it boils down to a preference. Some rather well designed modern ported speakers sound every bit as good, and have better specs to boot. Examples of these are numerous - KEF LS50, PSB Synchrony and Imagine, Focal, all the way up the line to the very tip top of the very tip toppest speakers have really good sounding speakers.

 

Some modern AS design speakers are also highly preferred. Difficult to find and afford perhaps, but highly preferred. Some examples are: The zu Speakers, in particular, the zu Cube. Anthony Gallo spherical speakers are AS, as are Orb speakers. (Both sound very good.) NHT speakers are AS, and can sound astonishingly good. harbeth P3SRs are sealed and can hold their own without breaking a sweat against most comparably priced speakers.

 

And when you hit modern or vintage Planar, Electrostatic, Open Baffle speakers, all bets are off. They usually all sound very very good. Here we talk about Magnepans, Martin Logan, Vandersteens, Quads, and other similar brands. Not for everyone, demanding of installation space, and all of which sound extremely good indeed!

 

Hope that helps a bit. Again, none of this is "right" or "wrong" - it is purely preference. That is also true when comparing Vintage and Modern speakers.

 

-Paul

[davidbeinct]

Sorry with no insult intended but this statement is a poor generalization. While a woofer in a sealed alignment will have advantages in controlled bass response, there's still the critical midbass and midrange response that comprises a substantial part of the range out ears are most sensitive to. In this aspect, an open baffle or box less speaker would be the optimum alignment as the rearward radiation of the cone is not forced back at and through the cone, smearing the response. This is more often than not NOT a practical approach for many as such speakers require significant distance from boundaries to operate properly. ...

 

...

Maybe I'll do a blog on speaker technology and characteristics some day.

 

Makes me even more sure that my Alon Model IV's I got from my brother for: A pair of skis, a kayak, and a butcher block table are a pretty darn good compromise. Sealed 12" woofer cabinet with open baffle mid and tweeter. Luckily I have plenty of room to let them play. Now that I have (shhh!) vinyl in my system, I may never look at new tech. (JK) (Sorta).

[NOMBEDES]

I voted for my AR 3a's (Improved) 39years old this month. Happy Birthday babies!!!!!!

[woodgeek]

I've owned a few sets of speakers over the years:

 

DCM TF-350

Paradigm 3SE

Magnepan 2.5-R's

DIY Dynaudio bookshelf

various Polks

 

My favorites of all the speakers I've owned are the Maggies. Nothing will ever compare to them. I miss them and I want a new pair but with two cats and kids in the house, the time is not now.

 

I'm listening to a pair of DIY speakers designed by Paul Carmody. I recently saw some Epicure 3.0's on eBay and I'm interested on building a pair of speakers based on their design.

[wkhanna]

From my years involved in DIY speaker building I have seen many improvements in driver quality, material & design. But there is no guarantee these improvements will result in better speaker performance if the overall design is not implemented in such a way as to take best advantage of said improvements.

 

For example, aluminum cone material was supposed to provide rigidity that doped paper could never achieve. This should have resulted in improved performance. However, aluminum comes with its own set of drawbacks such a high frequency breakup & unnatural resonance.

 

Speaker design is the epitome of compromise. Typically, specific goals are laid out in advance & a design is configured to meet those specifics. For example, if one has little space available, a bookshelf cabinet with a port can be used to extend the bass response. And it can be designed to take advantage of being placed near to the rear wall which will also help reinforce the bass. Will such a speaker have the same articulate, un-bloated & natural response as a full size floor-standing sealed cabinet with two ten inch woofers? Not likely. But then again, no one would realistically expect such a result in the real word.

 

Each type of design has its own set of advantages & disadvantages. The ability of a designer to accentuate the former & minimize the latter are what make great speakers stand out from good ones. Personal preference & a plethora of designs is one of the neat things about good quality audio. With so many different approaches out there to choose from, there is bound to be something that pleases just about any individual taste there is.

[Jud]

Didn't really see anything in the poll corresponding to my no/open baffle mid and tweeter, sealed bass driver with bass resonator, Vandersteens. Have had these particular 2ce speakers for 20+ years, plus the 2ci model before that for about 5 years.

[realhifi]

Didn't really see anything in the poll corresponding to my no/open baffle mid and tweeter, sealed bass driver with bass resonator, Vandersteens. Have had these particular 2ce speakers for 20+ years, plus the 2ci model before that for about 5 years.

 

Great design. Traded a pair I had years ago for cash and a pair of Spendor BC1's. Both of us felt like we won!

[Bill Lord]

For those who like old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CeNJGMly28

[esldude]

For those who like old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CeNJGMly28

 

Yes, I liked that. Lots of areas new tech does not replace the old so much as the people get replaced and are comfortable with new tech. Sort of the Thomas Kuhn paradigm approach to all of life.

[davidbeinct]

Didn't really see anything in the poll corresponding to my no/open baffle mid and tweeter, sealed bass driver with bass resonator, Vandersteens. Have had these particular 2ce speakers for 20+ years, plus the 2ci model before that for about 5 years.

 

I voted planar as I felt they were closest to my very similar Alon Model IV. Open baffle mid/tweeter, sealed bass (no resonator). With my experience with these I am not at all surprised you've held on to yours for 20+ years.

[Paul R]

I would class it as hybrid technology myself, since it is a box speaker without the box, or a planer speaker with a conventional driver. Whatever it is, those Vandersteens sound *good*.

 

-Paul

 

 

Didn't really see anything in the poll corresponding to my no/open baffle mid and tweeter, sealed bass driver with bass resonator, Vandersteens. Have had these particular 2ce speakers for 20+ years, plus the 2ci model before that for about 5 years.

[Paul R]

I scored a really sweet set of refurbed Advents today with the original drivers. They sound sweet indeed, so much so I am considering just using them in the main system and putting the PSB Synch 1Bs in the bedroom. Something about the Advents just sounds incredibly right to my tired old ears.

 

Very very right. Heck, they even make _Born in the USA_ fun to listen to again. I seriously think we have lost something with the new loudspeaker designs. Clearly new speakers are better at a lot of things, but perhaps not better at pleasing the guy who wants to listen to the music.

[Harpy]

I scored a really sweet set of refurbed Advents today with the original drivers.

 

If you want to leave the transistors behind (amp) I think a Dynaco St-30 would sound good. They are fairly cheap and plentiful and they cast a pretty glow. : )

[Paul R]

If you want to leave the transistors behind (amp) I think a Dynaco St-30 would sound good. They are fairly cheap and plentiful and they cast a pretty glow. : )

 

I wish they had shots one could take to cure tube allergies...