MSB Analog DAC

[Monoriu]

Hi, this is my first post here.

 

I currently connect my notebook to the Cambridge Audio Stream Magic 6, which connects to an integrated amplifier. I am considering buying the MSB Analog DAC to replace the Stream Magic 6 in the hope of getting better sound.

 

1. Is it good? The price tag of US$7k is quite steep. Is it likely that I will hear the difference and get better sound?

 

2. The only upgrade/option that I will consider is the US$1k volume control. I already have an integrated amplifier, so the volume control is not really necessary. Is the display, input select button and coaxial input that come with the volume control option worth US$1k?

 

3. For US$7k, are there better alternatives?

 

Thanks a lot.

[kaka]

I suspect your fundamental problem is using a notebook - they are a morass of electrical issues

 

I made huge gains moving from a Macbook+Amarra to a Hacintosh (PC based box without fan or moving disks running the Apple O/S) plus Amarra. Just converted it to Win8+Jplay and the gains are even greater relative to the Macbook

 

I had them both playing into an AMR DP777 dac over the weekend and one was superb, the other sounded rubbery in comparison. No dac was ever going to save the macbook

 

Before parting with $7k you might do well to have a serious look at the CAPS servers - if you know someone with one then go visiting with your dac and notebook.

[Monoriu]

I suspect your fundamental problem is using a notebook - they are a morass of electrical issues

 

I made huge gains moving from a Macbook+Amarra to a Hacintosh (PC based box without fan or moving disks running the Apple O/S) plus Amarra. Just converted it to Win8+Jplay and the gains are even greater relative to the Macbook

 

I had them both playing into an AMR DP777 dac over the weekend and one was superb, the other sounded rubbery in comparison. No dac was ever going to save the macbook

 

Before parting with $7k you might do well to have a serious look at the CAPS servers - if you know someone with one then go visiting with your dac and notebook.

 

Thanks. I am currently using itunes on an ultrabook with SSD as the music source. I realise that is probably not optimal. I intend to fix both the DAC and the computer issues sooner or later. I've seen all sorts of recommendations on the music server and the best playback software, and I certainly want to learn more. One option is to download Jriver or Jplay to my current laptop but the conversion from itunes is probably going to be painful.

 

I've tried using the Cambridge Audio Stream Magic to stream music from the laptop. First of all the software interface is a mess compared to itunes. Secondly I honestly can't tell any difference in sound quality. So far I have elected to keep using itunes because I think being able to listen to the songs that I want to listen is probably more important.

 

What do you think about the MSB DAC?

[kaka]

Yes you are right, iTunes is a sonic issue too

 

I would suggest dealing with player and source first, as then you will be able to hear what any dacs you check out do. MSB have quite a reputation, but you won't get value from one yet

[firedog]

I'd agree - try a server optimized for music playback (MAC or Windows) before you spend 7k on a DAC.

 

Also, if you already have a volume control, your money might be better spent getting the MSB with additional power supply. That's the most effective upgrade, AFAIK (ask your dealer what one upgrade makes the most difference to the sound). Yes, it is very expensive, but if you get the MSB you can save the $1000 for the volume control and save up till you can afford the PS upgrade.

 

Is the MSB worth it? A great DAC, but you might want to compare it to some DACs costing 3K to 6K and see if it is better; and if it is, if the SQ difference is worth the difference in cash to you. You might find out you are perfectly happy with a "lesser" DAC.

[Axiom05]

Yes you are right, iTunes is a sonic issue too

 

I would suggest dealing with player and source first, as then you will be able to hear what any dacs you check out do. MSB have quite a reputation, but you won't get value from one yet

 

I agree. Since you currently have a usable DAC, optimize the rest of the playback system first: computer, music player, hard drives for music files and backups. You may be surprised how much better things sound once this has been done. Then take your time to audition new DACs if you still feel the need. Also, you need to decide exactly what features you want in a DAC, e.g., multiple inputs, volume control, full preamp functions, etc.

 

You can find a couple of reviews on the Analog DAC at audiostream.com.

[Monoriu]

I'd agree - try a server optimized for music playback (MAC or Windows) before you spend 7k on a DAC.

 

Also, if you already have a volume control, your money might be better spent getting the MSB with additional power supply. That's the most effective upgrade, AFAIK (ask your dealer what one upgrade makes the most difference to the sound). Yes, it is very expensive, but if you get the MSB you can save the $1000 for the volume control and save up till you can afford the PS upgrade.

 

Is the MSB worth it? A great DAC, but you might want to compare it to some DACs costing 3K to 6K and see if it is better; and if it is, if the SQ difference is worth the difference in cash to you. You might find out you are perfectly happy with a "lesser" DAC.

Thanks for all the replies. I am certainly intrigued. I am a computer and audio newbie, so I am asking, exactly how do I optimise the computer source?

 

I presume an option is to walk into a computer shop and ask them to build a computer with the following specifications (the CAPS Zuma ones) -

 

Fanless design

· SOtM tX-USBexp precision oscillator USB card

· SOtM SATA filter

· Windows 8 Pro 64-bit

· 8 - 32 GB memory

· Intel i7 processor

· SAMSUNG 840 Pro SSD drive

· eSATA port for external SATA drive

· H5 case

 

Then install either Jplay or JRiver to this computer, and only use it for playing music.

 

Anything else? How does NAS figure into this? Do I connect this computer to the DAC via USB cable? Are there other/better options?

 

Advice will be much appreciated.

[Monoriu]

I'd agree - try a server optimized for music playback (MAC or Windows) before you spend 7k on a DAC.

 

Also, if you already have a volume control, your money might be better spent getting the MSB with additional power supply. That's the most effective upgrade, AFAIK (ask your dealer what one upgrade makes the most difference to the sound). Yes, it is very expensive, but if you get the MSB you can save the $1000 for the volume control and save up till you can afford the PS upgrade.

 

Is the MSB worth it? A great DAC, but you might want to compare it to some DACs costing 3K to 6K and see if it is better; and if it is, if the SQ difference is worth the difference in cash to you. You might find out you are perfectly happy with a "lesser" DAC.

Well, I'd love to get the power upgrade, but that's another US$3k. And it now looks like I need to spend money on a new computer. Given the choice, I probably need to pick the new computer instead of the power supply.

[firedog]

Thanks for all the replies. I am certainly intrigued. I am a computer and audio newbie, so I am asking, exactly how do I optimise the computer source?

 

I presume an option is to walk into a computer shop and ask them to build a computer with the following specifications (the CAPS Zuma ones) -

 

Fanless design

· SOtM tX-USBexp precision oscillator USB card

· SOtM SATA filter

· Windows 8 Pro 64-bit

· 8 - 32 GB memory

· Intel i7 processor

· SAMSUNG 840 Pro SSD drive

· eSATA port for external SATA drive

· H5 case

 

Then install either Jplay or JRiver to this computer, and only use it for playing music.

 

Anything else? How does NAS figure into this? Do I connect this computer to the DAC via USB cable? Are there other/better options?

 

Advice will be much appreciated.

 

If you want to buy one, you can get one already made from Small Green Computer (the shop). It will probably be cheaper than having your local shop make one, as the parts aren't the typical ones they stock, or even order.

 

You can use this with an NAS by pointing your player to the NAS (defining your music library on the NAS as the library for the player). Alternatively, you can use the eSATA port and attach an eSATA drive directly to the PC with an eSATA data cable.

 

The idea of the CAPS is to use USB. So yes, you attach the PC to the DAC with a USB cable from the SOtM card. There are clean power options for USB - batteries, filters, etc. if you want to go there.

[Monoriu]

If you want to buy one, you can get one already made from Small Green Computer (the shop). It will probably be cheaper than having your local shop make one, as the parts aren't the typical ones they stock, or even order.

 

You can use this with an NAS by pointing your player to the NAS (defining your music library on the NAS as the library for the player). Alternatively, you can use the eSATA port and attach an eSATA drive directly to the PC with an eSATA data cable.

 

The idea of the CAPS is to use USB. So yes, you attach the PC to the DAC with a USB cable from the SOtM card. There are clean power options for USB - batteries, filters, etc. if you want to go there.

 

It is best if I can buy from Small Green Computer. Does anyone know if they do international shipping?

[MikeJazz]

Thanks for all the replies. I am certainly intrigued. I am a computer and audio newbie, so I am asking, exactly how do I optimise the computer source?

 

 

Since you are a newbie, you probably want to get out of the "trouble" computeraudiophiles like to face on computer audio (tweeks, software changes, power optimizations).

 

If you are tweeker you will love this.

 

If not you'd better stay out of trouble and go for a good streamer with USB output and all optimizations done for your instead of a solution based on pc.

 

Sonore Rendu comes to mind (i think they make a usb version)...but maybe simaudio moon 180 MiND is also a good solution.

[Monoriu]

Since you are a newbie, you probably want to get out of the "trouble" computeraudiophiles like to face on computer audio (tweeks, software changes, power optimizations).

 

If you are tweeker you will love this.

 

If not you'd better stay out of trouble and go for a good streamer with USB output and all optimizations done for your instead of a solution based on pc.

 

Sonore Rendu comes to mind (i think they make a usb version)...but maybe simaudio moon 180 MiND is also a good solution.

I already own a streamer. Perhaps it isn't a very good streamer but I must say that I am quite disappointed. Biggest problem is the software interface. The ipad app crashes every half hour, can't shuffle more than a thousand songs, displays duplicate copies of songs all the time, displays song A but plays song B, misses lots of songs in the directory, etc etc. In short, it is a pain to use and it is the reason why I have reverted to itunes on PC to play music. I am therefore a bit hesitant to try a streamer again.

[Priaptor]

The Analog is an amazing DAC. The question is not whether there are better DACs at lower prices, but IMO, how many DACs at higher prices it outperforms. I had the Analog for several weeks and IMO, it was a significant improvement over the Meitner EMMDAC2X which is double the price. It is a great DAC at any price.

 

Just be aware it is a "single ended" unit and will not work well with XLR despite their being outputs for XLR. It is a SE unit regardless of what people say.

[Monoriu]

The Analog is an amazing DAC. The question is not whether there are better DACs at lower prices, but IMO, how many DACs at higher prices it outperforms. I had the Analog for several weeks and IMO, it was a significant improvement over the Meitner EMMDAC2X which is double the price. It is a great DAC at any price.

 

Just be aware it is a "single ended" unit and will not work well with XLR despite their being outputs for XLR. It is a SE unit regardless of what people say.

Thanks for the info. I don't quite understand the meaning of "single ended". Can you elaborate? I intend to connect the PC with the MSB Analog DAC using USB. How should I connect the DAC to the amplifier?

[ted_b]

Thanks for the info. I don't quite understand the meaning of "single ended". Can you elaborate? I intend to connect the PC with the MSB Analog DAC using USB. How should I connect the DAC to the amplifier?

 

With RCAs instead of XLR's. The XLR's are not truly balanced coming out of this DAC, so the RCA's are a better cleaner pathway.

[beetlemania]

Thanks for the info. I don't quite understand the meaning of "single ended". Can you elaborate? I intend to connect the PC with the MSB Analog DAC using USB. How should I connect the DAC to the amplifier?

 

Priaptor and ted_b are talking about the output from the DAC to the pre-amp, not the connection from computer to DAC.

[elcorso]

With RCAs instead of XLR's. The XLR's are not truly balanced coming out of this DAC, so the RCA's are a better cleaner pathway.

 

Truly balanced circuits are very expensive to implement with right amount of the (+) & (-) signal. The minor deviation will get you in phase shift problems. Most of the gear that shows an XLR output of input are transformer based, then it's better to stay single ended.

 

"Balanced" was created for crazy long runs of cable, like in recording studios (as Ted knows very well).

 

Roch

[Priaptor]

Since I know this DAC very well, let me just emphasize that 7K gets you the basic unit without a volume control (not needed if you are using a pre-amp) and one input (USB if you are using computer only) and "basic" power supply which is a pretty good power supply.

 

Here are the caveats. All who have heard the upgraded power supply believe it is a significant difference. While it can be added later my understanding is you don't get a credit back for the "standard" power supply and the updated PS will cost $3K. Also if you have plans to sell it at a later date, the Volume Control will make it easier to do and unlike their more expensive DACs, the VC cannot be added after the fact, so if resale is a factor even if you are using a preamp, it is probably wise to purchase it with a VC which will add 1K. Also, it is 1K for each additional input.

 

So as you can see, this DAC, loaded, can cost as much as 13K. However, I would recommend the standard DAC with a VC (strictly for resale purposes) if I were buying it.

[Mercman]

The standard Desktop Supply is worth $695. If you purchase the Analog Power Base at the time of the order, the extra cost for the upgraded power supply is $2995. If you decide to add it latter, it will cost you $3690.

[firedog]

It is best if I can buy from Small Green Computer. Does anyone know if they do international shipping?

 

yes they do, any questions you have, just email them, they will answer

[junker]

However, I would recommend the standard DAC with a VC (strictly for resale purposes) if I were buying it.

 

This! Besides the volume control adds one unbalanced analog input.

 

Also, add the metal remote control. You need it to turn off the reclocking feature for video and phase invert.

[Monoriu]

Thanks for everybody's replies, which are very helpful.

 

This gives me more confidence that this DAC is indeed the right choice. The only question left is whether I should buy the volume control upgrade. I accept that for resale purposes I should probably part with the US$1k. But since I plan to use this for 10 years or more, I'm not sure if the DAC will be worth anything in the secondary market when I sell it.

 

One thing that helps me decide is the additional "coaxial analog input" that comes with the VC. My current CD player is a US$40 LG DVD/CD player, which is, for lack of a better word, crap. If I buy the MSB analog DAC, one possibility is to buy a better CD transport, and plug the transport into the MSB DAC. I have no idea what a "coaxial analog input" is, but can I use it for the future CD transport? If so, I will probably buy the VC upgrade.

 

Or is it better for me to buy a CD player and connect it with the amplifier directly, bypassing the DAC? In this case I probably won't need the VC upgrade.

[DanRubin]

Thanks for everybody's replies, which are very helpful.

 

This gives me more confidence that this DAC is indeed the right choice. The only question left is whether I should buy the volume control upgrade. I accept that for resale purposes I should probably part with the US$1k. But since I plan to use this for 10 years or more, I'm not sure if the DAC will be worth anything in the secondary market when I sell it.

 

One thing that helps me decide is the additional "coaxial analog input" that comes with the VC. My current CD player is a US$40 LG DVD/CD player, which is, for lack of a better word, crap. If I buy the MSB analog DAC, one possibility is to buy a better CD transport, and plug the transport into the MSB DAC. I have no idea what a "coaxial analog input" is, but can I use it for the future CD transport? If so, I will probably buy the VC upgrade.

 

Or is it better for me to buy a CD player and connect it with the amplifier directly, bypassing the DAC? In this case I probably won't need the VC upgrade.

 

The coaxial analog input included with the VC is a stereo pair of RCA analog inputs to accommodate an analog, line-level source, such as a turntable. You could use it with the analog outputs of your CD player, but then you would be getting none of the MSB's DAC benefits. If you want to use the Analog DAC with a CD transport, you need to choose an appropriate digital input option, such as coax S/PDIF or AES/EBU or Toslink.

[Monoriu]

The coaxial analog input included with the VC is a stereo pair of RCA analog inputs to accommodate an analog, line-level source, such as a turntable. You could use it with the analog outputs of your CD player, but then you would be getting none of the MSB's DAC benefits. If you want to use the Analog DAC with a CD transport, you need to choose an appropriate digital input option, such as coax S/PDIF or AES/EBU or Toslink.

 

Thanks a lot. Then it means I don't really need the VC upgrade except for resale purpose. If I want to plug a CD transport into the MSB Analog DAC, I need to buy a digital input, which is US$1k each. I guess I can add that later.

[junker]

The analog input that comes with the volume control is a big perk. Forgo the VC option at your own risk. Run this thing straight into an amp for heaven sake....unless you have a very nice pre-amp that is...

 

The AnalogDAC has 2 of their in-house resistor-based (R2R) resistor ladder DAC modules. The DACIV models have 2 of these for each channel. Thus, you will want to use RCA's with it.

 

It also uses 2 SHARC processors for all of the digital filtering and processing. It comes standard with their 32x digital filter (awesome), but they can give you a file to play to use their "minimum phase" filter. I believe they just give it to you with the 32x file, but I also think it reverts with a power cycle. Ask Vince Galbo about this.

 

The upgrade remote is essential is you will play video through it at any time in which case you would want to turn off the reclocker.

 

And last thing is they have some AWESOME upgrade colors...

 

 

Don't forget you can add additional input modules, and the upgraded power supply later if your heart so desires.

 

It's a great DAC... I might have to go for a Mytek for the time being, but this is certainly one of my top picks out there (R2R, VC, DXD, DSD, great shielding...) It's good stuff for sure, but just expect it to run about $8k...