Where is Audio Truth ?

[Audio_ELF]

That only works if you are strictly digital.

Yes thats true - though if you are not strictly digital, you may as well put the ADC before any DSP and feed digital signals into the DSP separately...

 

Eloise

[4est]

Yes, of course, but for most, that would not be an option.

Yes thats true - though if you are not strictly digital, you may as well put the ADC before any DSP and feed digital signals into the DSP separately...

 

Eloise

[bdiament]

Hi Chris,

 

And Barry, just for you.

 

It's a thought experiment. One makes up things that don't necessarily happen, but nevertheless can happen. So let's just pretend that the wife has lovely art works standing in the corners, or has an obsessive compulsive problem that demands that all corners of rooms are free of objects of any kind.

 

And Alex, please don't tell me no such OCD exists. It doesn't matter. It's a freakin' thought experiment!

 

Respectfully yours,

and I apologize in advance for any transgressions I may have... and anyone I may have...

 

Chris

 

It is your thought experiment, so of course, you are free to arrange it any way you like.

Okay, so corner treatments are prohibited. Which arrangement would I choose for myself (or recommend to a client, friend or relative)? First would be the full range speaker and no DSP. Second would be the minimonitor and no DSP.

 

I completely understand that some folks do not hear the issues I've described but *do* hear the change in frequency response and like the results. I never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure.

 

To be clear, I hope my posts are not taken as disparaging of anyone's preferences, as that is not at all the intention. I'm simply voicing my own perspective and that is that DSP "room correction" takes away a whole lot more than it gives. (It does not "correct" the room in the slightest and should more rightly be referred to as "speaker alteration". Actually, I think this quite apropos, as in having a pet cat "altered". What they did to the cat is what it does to the speakers. ;-})

 

To both you and Alex, with regard to spatial cues in the bass (whether 50-55 Hz or elsewhere), *of course* they exist in the bass. This is a big part of what tells us the size of a large space. (Try it with eyes closed too.) The particular frequencies involved will depend on the dimensions of the space. Try it with a good recording that contains plenty of spatial information: turn down the bass on playback (or turn off the subs) and listen as the apparent size of the space collapses. (Needless to say, other things will change too but a good many of those spatial cues live in the low frequencies.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Paul R]

Hey Chris- I like your idea but immediately run into sort of a mental blockade there. If my wife was OCD that way, then helping her to be comfortable would be much more important to me than the stereo, and I get stuck at that point.

 

As for room correction via DSP, really good AVRs or PrePros seem to do a great job of it for video, and music played back through the system with video seems to be awesome. But 2channel music just does not seem to be as compelling when processed, and I would setup a bypass connection for it.

 

YMMV of course.

 

-Paul

 

And Barry, just for you.

 

It's a thought experiment. One makes up things that don't necessarily happen, but nevertheless can happen. So let's just pretend that the wife has lovely art works standing in the corners, or has an obsessive compulsive problem that demands that all corners of rooms are free of objects of any kind.

 

And Alex, please don't tell me no such OCD exists. It doesn't matter. It's a freakin' thought experiment!

 

Respectfully yours,

and I apologize in advance for any transgressions I may have... and anyone I may have...

 

Chris

[Audio_ELF]

Yes, of course, but for most, that would not be an option.

Okay ... Sorry maybe I don't understand what you're saying but...

 

To use DSP (and I'm not arguing if DSP is good or bad here) you need a digital signal. Why would you then use a DAC to convert your digital signal to analogue before having to convert it back to digital for the DSP - that way (if I read it correctly) Alex's suggestion. I countered that the ideal situation would just take a digital signal direct to the DSP.

 

If you have a mixed analogue and digital situation you can either have convert digital sources to analogue to then pass everything through an ADC before the DSP and a second DAC; or you can convert everything analogue to digital and squirt the original digital direct to the DSP - surely the latter is better?

 

I can't understand why the latter isn't an option except perhaps the DSP software doesn't have the option for an external input?

 

Eloise

[4est]

Maybe you do not then...

 

With all of the effort I use in an attempt to get the best out of my kit, the last thing I would consider is running my analog through an ADC to simply apply DSP.

Okay ... Sorry maybe I don't understand what you're saying but...

 

To use DSP (and I'm not arguing if DSP is good or bad here) you need a digital signal. Why would you then use a DAC to convert your digital signal to analogue before having to convert it back to digital for the DSP - that way (if I read it correctly) Alex's suggestion. I countered that the ideal situation would just take a digital signal direct to the DSP.

 

If you have a mixed analogue and digital situation you can either have convert digital sources to analogue to then pass everything through an ADC before the DSP and a second DAC; or you can convert everything analogue to digital and squirt the original digital direct to the DSP - surely the latter is better?

 

I can't understand why the latter isn't an option except perhaps the DSP software doesn't have the option for an external input?

 

Eloise

[sandyk]

To both you and Alex, with regard to spatial cues in the bass (whether 50-55 Hz or elsewhere), *of course* they exist in the bass. This is a big part of what tells us the size of a large space. (Try it with eyes closed too.) The particular frequencies involved will depend on the dimensions of the space.

 

Hi Barry

I was talking here about a small room where mini monitors would be used more out of necessity, not an ideal sized room where full range speakers could be used to advantage. Chris mentioned the 55-60HZ region where most mini monitors would have died in the bum.

I don't believe that you can get realistic spacial cues in this part of the spectrum from mini monitors in a small room. Neither do I believe that any amount of DSP is going to make them miraculously appear. Even full range speakers will struggle if the room is physically too small. My own DCM QED 1A speakers performed far better with a more extended LF response in a previous larger room. I am NOT suggesting that there is no spacial info in this area, just that mini monitors will not reveal it , and will often have a bump in their frequency response at double that frequency.(one note bass ? )

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

I am happy to be corrected here though.

[Audio_ELF]

Maybe you do not then...

 

With all of the effort I use in an attempt to get the best out of my kit, the last thing I would consider is running my analog through an ADC to simply apply DSP.

Ahhh. I understand that.

 

I thought you were saying there was a practical reason why DSP'd setup doesn't work with analogue source. You were just meaning you wouldn't WANT to use DSP with analogue which is different.

 

Running DSP (or not) is a choice but its perfectly doable for any source.

 

I believe we were writing at cross purposes!

[bdiament]

Hi Alex,

 

Hi Barry

I was talking here about a small room where mini monitors would be used more out of necessity, not an ideal sized room where full range speakers could be used to advantage. Chris mentioned the 55-60HZ region where most mini monitors would have died in the bum.

I don't believe that you can get realistic spacial cues in this part of the spectrum from mini monitors in a small room. Neither do I believe that any amount of DSP is going to make them miraculously appear. Even full range speakers will struggle if the room is physically too small. My own DCM QED 1A speakers performed far better with a more extended LF response in a previous larger room. I am NOT suggesting that there is no spacial info in this area, just that mini monitors will not reveal it , and will often have a bump in their frequency response at double that frequency.(one note bass ? )

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

I am happy to be corrected here though.

 

Understood. I was under the impression the argument was that there are no spatial cues at the bottom. My experience tells me there is a great deal of spatial information down there.

 

Now, if the speakers can't reproduce a given part of the range, it would stand to reason that they will not provide the information contained in that part of the range.

Ultimately, I think capabilities vary from design to design. To me, mini speakers provide a mini view of the event, with mini players, playing mini instruments in a mini room. They certainly have their place though. I've got two sets of little speakers in parts of the house where larger speakers would not fit. Since I still want music in those parts of the house, I get by with a smaller version of the music -- which is infinitely preferable, in my view, to no music at all.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Superdad]

I think that its likely that the playback software is influencing the computer's power and in someway that is being transfered to the DAC in an audible manner - though I also believe that this is hardware dependent and such influence shouldn't be happening (the DAC should be able to be isolated) and that it just shows that computer audio is still "broken".

 

I believe that Gordon has stated before that at a theoretical level an async DAC should be immune to the computer and cables and he doesn't understand how one affects the other...

 

Hi Eloise:

 

My dear friend and colleague John Swenson has been researching, testing, and measuring the multitude of ways and reasons that async DACs are still affected by software, USB cables, and power supplies. He gives many clues (almost a roadmap for other designers, though I asked him not to give away too much) in his second "interview" article on AudioStream: Q&A with John Swenson. Part 2: Are Bits Just Bits? | AudioStream

 

Again, his research is not just speculation, nor is it going to waste. He and I have been working together for over a year on a couple of groundbreaking products (both performance and function-wise) which incorporate solutions to many of the issues he is speaking of. He is a brilliant engineer; I'm just trying to play Jobs to his Wozniak!

 

I think Part 3 of his interview series will get further into why software, USB cables, and computer issues are having the effects which we hear so readily. I may ask him to about publishing some measurements showing the effects. I know he sees this stuff with his ground-plane analyzer and older spectrum analyzer, but I forgot to ask him this weekend if he got his new spectrum analyzer which can save and feed the images to a computer file.

[Audio_ELF]

Superdad... I've seen John Swenson's work referenced before... What I can't recall is if he says such effects are inevitable or if he feels that it should be possible to isolate the computer from the DAC entirely.

 

To my mind such an isolation is the ideal rather than trying to make the computer NOT pass these effects.

 

A "perfect" DAC (to my mind) should work identical with a Dell running Foobar, a MacMini running iTunes and a fully tricked up CAPS running J.River (assuming no resampling, etc in each case) and USB cables shouldn't then have an effect either - which as I say (as i understand it) the theory of USB async says should be the case.

 

At the moment it's a crap-shoot if DAC (a) sounds better with Audirvana and cable (I); or if like DAC (b) J.River and cable (II) is better.

 

Eloise

 

PS. Please be sure I'm not saying all DACs sound the same; just that an async DAC should sound the same with any "bit-perfect" transport/computer.

Hi Eloise:

 

My dear friend and colleague John Swenson has been researching, testing, and measuring the multitude of ways and reasons that async DACs are still affected by software, USB cables, and power supplies. He gives many clues (almost a roadmap for other designers, though I asked him not to give away too much) in his second "interview" article on AudioStream: Q&A with John Swenson. Part 2: Are Bits Just Bits? | AudioStream

 

Again, his research is not just speculation, nor is it going to waste. He and I have been working together for over a year on a couple of groundbreaking products (both performance and function-wise) which incorporate solutions to many of the issues he is speaking of. He is a brilliant engineer; I'm just trying to play Jobs to his Wozniak!

 

I think Part 3 of his interview series will get further into why software, USB cables, and computer issues are having the effects which we hear so readily. I may ask him to about publishing some measurements showing the effects. I know he sees this stuff with his ground-plane analyzer and older spectrum analyzer, but I forgot to ask him this weekend if he got his new spectrum analyzer which can save and feed the images to a computer file.

[mayhem13]

Hi Barry

I was talking here about a small room where mini monitors would be used more out of necessity, not an ideal sized room where full range speakers could be used to advantage. Chris mentioned the 55-60HZ region where most mini monitors would have died in the bum.

I don't believe that you can get realistic spacial cues in this part of the spectrum from mini monitors in a small room. Neither do I believe that any amount of DSP is going to make them miraculously appear. Even full range speakers will struggle if the room is physically too small. My own DCM QED 1A speakers performed far better with a more extended LF response in a previous larger room. I am NOT suggesting that there is no spacial info in this area, just that mini monitors will not reveal it , and will often have a bump in their frequency response at double that frequency.(one note bass ? )

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

I am happy to be corrected here though.

 

It's more a matter of the speaker Alex....I'm not sure your generalizations are accurate as its the speakers dispersion characteristic or directivity that accounts for the spacial cues, along with frequency response and proper phase integration at the crossover points....all of this combined makes up the parameters of power response. Most of the spacial cues will come in the 800hz-4khz range where the ear is most sensitive to such...part of our evolution along with our keen abilities in the horizontal plane....the vertical not so much, primarily the reason why our ears are on the sides of our head. Speakers with already poor vertical and horizontal directivity will splay sound towards every boundary in the room, smearing the primary content with successive but quick early reflections. The 'problem' with sub 150hz content is the looooooong wavelengths and the problems that derive from their interactions with boundaries. While I agree with Barry on many issues at their core, we differ on the solutions for those issues equally. I do think DSP can be a very useful tool, especially in a typical home system environment......and the tradeoffs are more than acceptable to many audiophiles. Lets be honest.....treating a room and ideal speaker placement is most often completely counter to any other purpose of that space EXCEPT for listening to music. That's not practical OR acceptable to many and in these cases, proper use of DSP can have a HUGE positive impact on sound where one can't treat the space or place speakers 1/3 of the way into the room. We here at CA run across this daily with 2way speakers sitting on desktops.....the absolute WORST possible setting next to placing them on bookshelves. But yet that's the designs available to us so we use them, and then spend countless $$$ feeding them high res content to listen 30 degrees off the vertical axis and listen to floor bounce as the sound slams off the desktop, amplified in LF content not considered or accounted for in the crossover by the designer.

 

Directivity is the key to great sound in any space and I implore you to research the topic and means to accomplish it in a near constant state. Start off with the best possible wavefront instead of spending arduous amounts of time and money to correct it.

[mayhem13]

 

Ultimately, I think capabilities vary from design to design. To me, mini speakers provide a mini view of the event, with mini players, playing mini instruments in a mini room. They certainly have their place though.

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

As many feel quite the opposite in regards to large planar and electrostat panels that produce 6ft violins and mouths that dwarf Jagger and Carly in comparison. In my experience, what these speakers do is, again, impart an acceptable tradeoff by using directivity to take the room effect out of the equation BUT at the cost of an exaggerated sound stage that my ears simply can't take in the near or midfield.....typical listening environment distances......but listen at a distance or the farfield and much like a line array, boy do they shine. For me, it's always the proper speaker for the space first....that's more than half the battle.

[Superdad]

For me, it's always the proper speaker for the space first....that's more than half the battle.

 

That is so true. I always laugh when I go to audio shows where exhibitors have set up gargantuan speakers in tiny hotel rooms--and then spend hours trying to position them to deliver anything besides sh*t bass! Having set up for at least 8 CES shows (with Hovland), I can sympathize, but at least we never ran anything larger than medium sized Wilsons or Avalons in our rooms.

[sandyk]

Directivity is the key to great sound in any space and I implore you to research the topic and means to accomplish it in a near constant state. Start off with the best possible wavefront instead of spending arduous amounts of time and money to correct it.

 

mayhem13

Why do you think that after all these years, I still use the DCM QED 1A ? They were renowned for their imaging, and had great published "waterfall" plots too. Sure, they could do with a small extension in the area from say 19kHZ upwards, but they are one of the few speakers where you can sit directly in front of one, and still readily hear the contribution of the other.

The better the amplification and source material, the more they continue to surprise you. Neither do they need Kilowatt amplifiers to drive them to adequate SPLs in a normal domestic situation.

 

It's a shame that they are such " cat magnets" though.

Regards

Alex

[Superdad]

... but they are one of the few speakers where you can sit directly in front of one, and still readily hear the contribution of the other.

It's a shame that they are such " cat magnets" though.

 

DMC Time Window 1A? Well of course you can hear the other speaker while in front of one--the baffles are at almost 45-degree angles! That's some serious vintage!

Please tell me that you have at least rebuilt the crossovers and gotten rid of those dreadful electrolytic and mylar capacitors and the crap inductors they used.

 

Man I remember those being sold at the hi-fi store I worked at--the service department--after school as a teen in the '70s (Pilot Stereo Center, Santa Monica, CA). The DCM sales rep was always pushing the store to buy more, and each time he came in he had a better "deal"--to the point where the owner was buying them for 80% off, with some incentive on top of that!

As I recall, after that the store picked up the similar but better built Allison Acoustics and sold the 20-25 pairs of DCM stock to Pacific Stereo (at 60% off so still a profit) and dropped the line.

[sandyk]

Hi Alex

The QED 1A is a stripped down version of the big Time Windows and there is very little resemblance in the XOVER area to their big brothers as well. They use a single 8" woofer and a Philips tweeter. (AD 0160 T8 ? ) These are from 1979, and got an excellent review in Australian HiFi at the time, along with waterfall plots. I no longer have the original review.

Despite all my researching, I have yet to find a definitive way to get them apart without wrecking them. It appears that several different construction methods were used, and they can be a real P.I.T.A. to get apart.. Another factor is the non availability of the original " socks" for my " cat scratching posts"

Regards

Alex

[Don Hills]

... To be clear, I hope my posts are not taken as disparaging of anyone's preferences, as that is not at all the intention. I'm simply voicing my own perspective and that is that DSP "room correction" takes away a whole lot more than it gives. (It does not "correct" the room in the slightest and should more rightly be referred to as "speaker alteration". Actually, I think this quite apropos, as in having a pet cat "altered". What they did to the cat is what it does to the speakers. ;-}) ...

 

Altering the cat does make it easier to live with, though. For example, it stops it using your speakers as urination stations... and it reduces the "caterwauling".

[徐中銳]

So just perhaps, when it comes to listening to music, it appears there is something more to "trust your ears" than 'meets the eye'.

 

Enjoy the music.

 

Uploaded a few hours ago :

« In this uplifting short film, directed by Max Thurlow and Nick Trumble, Noisey meets 93 year old jazz pianist Edward Hardy. Ed was given a new lease of life and relief from dementia and depression, when his care home discovered he was a talented pianist in his younger days. They reunited him with his ex-band members for a special performance, which proved the power of music for people suffering cognitive disorders.

 

This film is part of The Noisey Guide to Music and Mental Health. You can read more from this series right here : Columns | NOISEY

 

Watch the other films in this series :

 

If you are concerned about the mental health of you or someone you know, talk to Mind on 0300 123 3393 or at their website : Home | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems And if you would like to know more about the work of Help Musicians UK, you can visit them here : https://www.helpmusicians.org.uk/ »

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

Thanks Wilhelm, a lovely post.

 

many moons ago I spent over a year training in Geriatric Medicine. We had a music therapist on our team. I think her medicine was equally, if not more , powerful to that of the doctors.

 

I saw people that could sing but not talk, hear notes that their pure tone audio tests would suggest they could not, and bring smiles where there had been none.

 

David

[徐中銳]

You're most welcome David,

I'll need to write better another day.

 

Recalling what might be obscured, shared 7 months ago :

www.vimeo.com/10527554

« The Great Fugue by Beethoven is one of his greatest achievements' date=' one of the most powerful scores ever written for a string quartet. He composed it at the very end of his life, while he was completely deaf, and desperate. [/font']

 

The music seems first to be very hard and tortured but it countains also a very powerful feeling of joy and liberation. That is why I wanted to film this performance among the patients of a mental institution, Sainte Anne, in Paris. »

 

Watched once, years previous. Its cover image, indelible

[Teresa]

In this uplifting short film' date=' directed by [b']Max Thurlow[/b] and Nick Trumble, Noisey meets 93 year old jazz pianist Edward Hardy. Ed was given a new lease of life and relief from dementia and depression, when his care home discovered he was a talented pianist in his younger days. They reunited him with his ex-band members for a special performance, which proved the power of music for people suffering cognitive disorders....

 

Thanks Wilhelm,

 

I am amazed that the 93 year old jazz pianist Edward Hardy with dementia still remembers how to play his favorite song. I donated my acoustic guitar years ago as it was becoming harder and harder to play and to remember songs I used to play.

 

For me trying to remember is like grasping at straws that are not there.

 

I still love music listening and I understand the love of music is one of the last things people with dementia lose.

[徐中銳]

You're most welcome Teresa,

have you seen the following ? It's also truly heartwarming :

[Teresa]

Thanks Wilhelm

[徐中銳]

Teresa, perhaps the Audio Truth is that *we are how we listen*

 

And perhaps, some days, you might like to contribute to the following two Threads over at Music in General :

Song of the Day (or welcome to the ADD Generation).....

 

Album of the Evening