The best speaker.... really

[DaQi]

Agree with what Priaptor said as it summed up my thoughts very well.

 

There is no "best" speaker since all music reproduction is a set of compromises. It is about an experience of music and whatever enables you to experience music in the most satisfying way for you is best. Some might argue that anything less than a live experience is unsatisfactory, others get their satisfaction with vinyl, yet others with inexpensive ear buds and a mobile phone and some of us with expensive equipment and discussions about impressive specifications and whether 192khz is better than 96khz sampling rate.

 

With all the recording wizardry that goes on, stored music is created in a way that never existed as a live performance and thus is somehow virtual as an image that the sound engineer has created. Every performance of that stored music in time and in place regardless of whether it is bit perfect, played on the most expensive or inexpensive of equipment is a compromise.

[wkhanna]

I found this to be quite an interesting study on how we judge the 'realness' of sound.

 

http://www.ems-network.org/IMG/pdf_BatchelorEMS07.pdf

[Paul R]

+1

 

I also have a lot of fun with people that say it has to sound "live" to be good. As you point out, what "live" is that, exactly?

 

Stage shows sound great, powered by little $400 Crown or Berringer amps. Does that mean we should put a $400 1000wpc Crown amp into our systems to get the "live" sound?

 

 

-Paul

 

P.S. I love the 3.7s too, they sound great. The 20.7s are prettier though!

 

 

My two cents.

 

People are always claiming this speaker and that speaker most accurately recreates live music. I am not sure what that means. On stage with the performer, 10th row, mezzanine, etc? In a cozy club, acoustic with no electronic amplification? A crappy auditorium where an overwhelming majority of orchestras play. A Bar Mitzvah or wedding? "Live music" has plenty of issues and I am still waiting for someone to tell me the "point" on the wide spectrum of live music that a speaker should hit.

 

I guess if one wanted to have a standard by which to judge, those like Barry who records in studios, probably would be the best to judge what the performer sounds like in the studio versus through its reproduction.

 

As to a driver having to reproduce multiple frequencies I understand the issues, but if you think these frequencies in a "live" setting are not interacting with each other as they originate from each instrument you are kidding yourself. There is no discrete frequency, unless its a single instrument, reaching your tympanic membrane but a multitude of frequencies, all interacting, with some cancellations and some additive consequences, which are all effected the further one sits from the source, how far to the left or right one sits, the acoustics of the room, etc.

 

While my main speakers are "full range" pseudo-line sources (Nola Baby Grands Series II) which I love, my favorite speakers are those with limited drivers such as monitors (take your pick), understanding their benefits and negatives. I broke my cherry on ProAc Tablettes and Celestion SL600s and have been in love with the intimacy of the sound these point sources (as wsgott properly points out) generate. Are monitors perfect or sound like live? No they are not perfect and I guess it depends upon what variable of "live" you are trying to reproduce as your reference.

[Audio_ELF]

I also have a lot of fun with people that say it has to sound "live" to be good. As you point out, what "live" is that, exactly?

I always aim for it to sound like Memorex...

[wkhanna]

As someone else stated here a while ago, I often come home from a live performance & find my system sounds better than the 'real' thing. This includes the gamut from symphonic halls to small jazz clubs.

 

The environment seems to always have the greatest effect.

[Priaptor]

+1

 

I also have a lot of fun with people that say it has to sound "live" to be good. As you point out, what "live" is that, exactly?

 

Stage shows sound great, powered by little $400 Crown or Berringer amps. Does that mean we should put a $400 1000wpc Crown amp into our systems to get the "live" sound?

 

 

-Paul

 

P.S. I love the 3.7s too, they sound great. The 20.7s are prettier though!

 

Paul,

 

I have heard both. Even if money were no object and room were no object I would buy the 3.7s any day of the week. One of the truly great speakers ever made. I am not a huge fan of the 20.7s on the other hand.

[Mick The Kraken]

I'm a bit biased, but...

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CHsQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computeraudiophile.com%2Fattachments%2Ff12-headphones-and-speakers%2F528d1337782063-sonus-faber-guarneri-memento-or-wilson-duette-klipsch_cornwall_test_report.pdf&ei=qyQQUdPJKMXa2QXjyYAw&usg=AFQjCNFW24eVfy8hRl4cMcVw3JVd_1FCBg&sig2=cJB88UHwcCSbTJF9mfRHQg&bvm=bv.41867550,d.b2I

[MrAcoustat]

Acoustat DIY Spectra 8800s 41x102x10 inches weight 800 pounds of pure joy, you may also have a look at more photos if you wish. my Flickr photo album - - - Flickr: mracoustat's Photostream

 

[MrAcoustat]

The best speaker is ALWAYS the one you own , no but seriously dollar for dollar full range panels are VERY HARD to beat , please let me know of a speaker that will give you more for you're money than this one, Magnepan MMG = $550.00

 

[Blake]

please let me know of a speaker that will give you more for you're money than this one, Magnepan MMG = $550.00

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7083[/ATTACH]

 

 

Sure. The Pioneer speakers designed by Andrew Jones of TAD fame:

 

TAD's Andrew Jones Designs Surprising Sounding Budget Speakers For Pioneer (Pricing corrected) | Analog Planet

 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/pioneer-sp-bs41-lr-loudspeaker

[MrAcoustat]

Sure. The Pioneer speakers designed by Andrew Jones of TAD fame:

 

TAD's Andrew Jones Designs Surprising Sounding Budget Speakers For Pioneer (Pricing corrected) | Analog Planet

 

Pioneer SP-BS41-LR loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

 

Well i'm glad you like them , at $150.00 it's a good deal.

[Blake]

I have read good things about the MMG's as well.

[Savage]

I own a pair of those, bought when my main speaker went in for repair.

They really roll of fast at 10K, I mean really fast. I think all the positive reviews are more marveling at the price rather something you could ever build a system around. For $99.00 a pair, excellent...then it all stops there.

[BNC]

... often times a more simplistic 2-way crossover will produce music with a lot more pleasureable characteristics than the more complex 3-way crossover. 3-way crossovers are difficult to be designed properly which is why a lot of the more "musical" speakers tend to be 2 way systems.

 

I think this is where the 'old ways' meet the new. A lot of speaker 'folklore' still persists even though DSP completely changes what is possible.

 

Done with DSP and measurements, three or even four ways will integrate perfectly, with no more effort needed than designing a two way. And of course it then works much, much better than a two way (drivers not working outside their comfortable frequency zones, less excursion on the drivers etc.).

[NOMBEDES]

Maggie 20.7s, Magico Q7s, TAD Reference, Wilson, etc. They are all about as close to state of the art as you are going to get this half of the second decade of the 21st century. And, every one of them takes a radically different, utterly scientific, approach to sound reproduction.

 

Check them out and get some ideas, or at least some reasons to dream...

 

Me? If I had the space, it would without question be the Maggie 20.7s.

 

In the space I have, on a limited budget - Maggie MMGs. To be replaced at some point by Joseph Audio Pulsars.

 

-Paul

 

 

Paul, I just unboxed a pair of Joseph Audio Perspectives. First new speakers in 38 years. No opinion yet. I spent some time with the Pearls (out of my price range) and the Pulsars. I got the Perspectives because I thought they would have a bit more base than the Pulsars. I was surprised by the base in the small Pulsars, but, so far, I do not think the Perspectives add much base. Who knew.

[MrAcoustat]

Maggie 20.7s, Magico Q7s, TAD Reference, Wilson, etc. They are all about as close to state of the art as you are going to get this half of the second decade of the 21st century. And, every one of them takes a radically different, utterly scientific, approach to sound reproduction.

 

Check them out and get some ideas, or at least some reasons to dream...

 

Me? If I had the space, it would without question be the Maggie 20.7s.

 

In the space I have, on a limited budget - Maggie MMGs. To be replaced at some point by Joseph Audio Pulsars.

 

-Paul

 

Dollar for dollar I would never replace a full range panel for boxes never never never.

[NOMBEDES]

Acoustat DIY Spectra 8800s 41x102x10 inches weight 800 pounds of pure joy, you may also have a look at more photos if you wish. my Flickr photo album - - - Flickr: mracoustat's Photostream

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7081[/ATTACH]

 

 

I would kill for those Mr. A, but then my wife would kill me........

[MrAcoustat]

I would kill for those Mr. A, but then my wife would kill me........

 

My wife accepts my passion, probably why whe are still together after 44 years.

[Bromo33333]

As digital processing continues to drop in price relative almost anything else, it's going to be interesting to see the rise of digital crossovers. It's easy to manage the function of a crossover in the digital domain and to do so with no phase or timing issues. For a two-way speaker, imagine each channel being split into separate digital streams, one for high frequencies, one for low, each going to a separate DAC for output. Bi-amp each speaker and now you have a very powerful and flexible way of optimizing how that speaker operates.

 

Sanders Sound Systems (founded by a founder of Martin Logan) sells an electrostat with digital crossover - currently 24bit/96kHz - but I'd figure than in a few years we'll see 32/384 crossovers - or perhaps DSD? :-O

[colog]

there is not the best, only the better!

[wisnon]

Acoustat DIY Spectra 8800s 41x102x10 inches weight 800 pounds of pure joy, you may also have a look at more photos if you wish. my Flickr photo album - - - Flickr: mracoustat's Photostream

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7081[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]7082[/ATTACH]

 

Very impressive Mr Accustat. Lovely work there. Would love to hear 'em. I have been most impressed by the Evolution Acoustics MM3, the Franco Serblin Ktemas, LumenWhites, Heil AMT Kithara with the bassplate,

YG Anat Ref 3, Lansche with the plasma tweeter, Emerald Physics 2.7 and the JoSound Cartouche model.

 

I need to check out Brodmann, Living Voice, Onda Ligera, the larger Trennet&Friedl speakkers, Forster Audiotechnic, Laurence Audio Cello (great WAF), Amazon Audio 1, and the larger Vienna Acoustics speakers (the smaller ones like the Baby Beethoven are GREAT).

[ss4]

My favorite have always been Avantgarde Acoustic Speakers (Duo or Trio). Effortless, dynamic, full range. The closest thing to live music I have ever heard from a loudspeaker.

[Sam Lord]

...Stage shows sound great, powered by little $400 Crown or Berringer amps. Does that mean we should put a $400 1000wpc Crown amp into our systems to get the "live" sound?

P.S. I love the 3.7s too, they sound great. The 20.7s are prettier though!

 

Live amped music is dynamic but almost never has really good tonality, IME. I love Maggies too, great timbre and detail, but as with all line or large planar sources the images are too big for small sources, IMO.

 

I think this is where the 'old ways' meet the new. A lot of speaker 'folklore' still persists even though DSP completely changes what is possible.

Done with DSP and measurements, three or even four ways will integrate perfectly, with no more effort needed than designing a two way. And of course it then works much, much better than a two way (drivers not working outside their comfortable frequency zones, less excursion on the drivers etc.).

 

^This. Although you don't need DSP for that, just good design. We used to build 6-way (later switching to 4-way) speakers that were perfectly time coherent for a given listener; each driver enclosure could be adjusted for any specified listener position. DSP is potentially a better tool, but you need a good unit like the Hypex DLCP.

 

...I got the Perspectives because I thought they would have a bit more base than the Pulsars. I was surprised by the base in the small Pulsars, but, so far, I do not think the Perspectives add much base. Who knew.

 

You could be getting cancellation or even an accidental critical damping from room surfaces.

 

Sanders Sound Systems (founded by a founder of Martin Logan) sells an electrostat with digital crossover - currently 24bit/96kHz - but I'd figure than in a few years we'll see 32/384 crossovers - or perhaps DSD? :-O

 

64-bit-float and 80-bit-fixed crossovers have existed for years, what are you waiting for? But any final output beyond 24 bits and the sampling rate at 2x redbook gains you nothing. You can just add bits for digital volume as you prefer, or use a superior preamp, i.e. (Ayre KXR) one that does not attenuate using make-up gain .

[bdiament]

Hi Sam,

 

...I love Maggies too, great timbre and detail, but as with all line or large planar sources the images are too big for small sources, IMO...

 

It is important to be careful not to blame the messenger. As one who uses Maggies as my monitors for recording, mixing, mastering, etc. I can say if the images are too big, it is the fault of the recording (or possibly the placement of the speakers). Properly placed Maggies give me back the image sizes and soundstage size I hear at the recording sessions.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Paul R]

Live amped music is dynamic but almost never has really good tonality, IME. I love Maggies too, great timbre and detail, but as with all line or large planar sources the images are too big for small sources, IMO.

 

I do not really find that to be true, but I do find that people (like my wife for instance) are used to "small" sounds and are sometimes a bit intimidated when a Cello does not sound like it is only 6" tall.

 

-Paul