Turn-Table Talk . . . .

[HIFI]

Will I be banned from this forum If I ask a turntable question?

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Will I be banned from this forum If I ask a turntable question?

 

Banned? Probably not. Mocked? Well ... I guess it depends on the question. ;-)

[HIFI]

Can you blow up or find holes in my thinking . . .

 

I purchased a Music Hall 9.1 with Goldring erocia LX cartridge. I have not owned a TT in over thirty years and never a really high end one at that.

 

So . . . my MC cartridge is 0.5mV output. I have not landed on a phono pre amp yet. I have a cheap Cambridge I am using now so I can, at least, play records. My system, on vinyl, sounds thin.

 

I borrowed a Krell KPA from a friend. Sounded full, inviting and very nice. I gave it back to him and he loaned me an older Manley tube preamp. It did not work well as I had to advance volume on my Peachtree preamp and there is much noise (tube rush). I was doing these sound test in hopes I could make a tube/SS decision.

 

So I have been reading and SUT’s have come up. I understand the need especially for LOMC cartridges. Am I a fool for trying to purchase a SUT just for my current cartridge? Will I need a different SUT if I change cartridges? Can I even think about a SUT purchase before I settle on a phono pre-amp? Do I need a different SUT if I change phono pre-amps in the future?

 

I cannot spend Krell money or Manley Steelhead money. I understand/believe each of these would meet all my needs. I am trying to find out if I can do something nice with a 1200.00 USD budget. SUT and cheaper phono stage, just a phono stage in total . . . just don’t know what to throw my budget at. Because I have never experienced an SUT I don’t know how high the sound gains will be.

 

Just a thought question . . . The Krell KPA . . . does it have SUT built in? I know the Manley Steelhead has the SUT technology built in.

 

Another thought question . . . If I stretched my budget and looked at the Manley Chinook, or something like it, with its tremendous amount input adjustment flexibility am I simply “taking sand to the beach”? The Chinook is a well-reviewed phono pre-amp but it does use active gain controls up front before input tubes. There are other solid state phono preamps that use active gains and that is why I am starting this conversation. HOW BAD CAN THIS ACTIVE GAIN BE?

[4est]

By SUT, I assume you know that means Step Up Transformer.

 

For starters, let me assure you there are very big differences in SUTs in terms of quality and what they are mated with. They are not required either. The gain can be made in other ways with tubes and transistors, often more economically. I like SUTs, but then again I have some pricey vintage ones that are not easy to come by. I would think that in your price range, a pre amp or phono pre amp with a LOMC gain stage may be your best bet. In another thread there was made mention of a iFi phono amp that was deemed good and reasonably priced. i'd try something like that that has return privileges. Another idea may be to buy a ADC/DAC that has mic (and analog if needed) ins and swapping out your Nova.

 

I do not understand what you mean by "active gain controls" btw.

[HIFI]

By SUT, I assume you know that means Step Up Transformer.

 

 

I do not understand what you mean by "active gain controls" btw.

Thanks for jumping in 4est . . .

 

Yes . . . Step Up Transformer . . .

 

As to the "I don't understand" . . . I look at a step up transformer as a passive gain device. There are many high end phono preamps that use step up transformers in the MC inputs due to the low output of many MC cartridges. There are also phono preamps (tube and SS) that use IC's or operational amps on the front end. I am considering those as an "active gain" control.

[4est]

OK, then the active gain is what i would recommend at that price range unless you are looking for used items. The "control" is what threw me- it could have meant active RIAA eq.

[Logic800]

I would recommend getting a secondhand Quad 99 pre-amp - very flexible with regard to phono settings, and good sounding too.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

I think you can do a lot for that sub-$2k price point. Have you looked at Graham Slee? Rogue Audio might be a good one to look at, too. Sutherland Engineering gets good marks. EAR 834p is a classic. Leben and LFD also make phono stages in that price range.

 

For cheap SUTs, I'd go talk to Bob at Bob's Devices.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

On second thought, have you thought about something like the Furutech GT40?

[jtwrace]

I think you can do a lot for that sub-$2k price point. Have you looked at

For cheap SUTs, I'd go talk to Bob at Bob's Devices.

 

Very good recommendation but not really "cheap" or inexpensive. :-)

[wkhanna]

I do not have tons of experience with LOMC’s .

Some may bemoan my recommendation, but I think Stereophile’s ‘Recommended Components List' is a good reference, if nothing else.

 

Additionally, the guys over at Vinyl Asylum will have numerous recommendations in your budgetary range.

I have not heard the Chinok, but based on its pedigree & recent reviews, it appears to be a V good value. I personally would not hesitate to try one in my system.

Pardon me stating the obvious, but quite, V low noise floor, is essential. For this reason I might be interested in some of the battery powered units, too.

In the realm of DIY or kit products, I might also consider Bottlehead http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=225 & Haggerman http://www.hagtech.com

[obt_man]

I am not a big fan of step up transformers. I guess with your budget and the system you'll be served well by a mm/mc phono preamp with flexible gain adjustments. I used to own German Lehmann Audio Black Cube preamp, and it was great with all sorts of cartridges. And I guess going for Manley or similar will be an overkill. Musical Surroundings, Primare R32, Dynavector come to my mind in your budget. I also would recommend reaching our to guys at Needle Doctor, they are superb in answering questions and suggesting equipment.

[4est]

I am not a big fan of step up transformers.

 

They really need to be good ones and mated properly to the cartridge...

[bluesman]

I'd take a look at the Parasound 2100 ($649), the Parasound Zphono-USB ($349), and the Emotiva USP-1 ($369). All are excellent preamps with MC/MM inputs - and all are fantastic values. The Z-phono preamp circuit is a John Curl design, and it sounds wonderful. Along with a pretty good integral DAC & USB output so you can rip your vinyl, I don't know of a better device than the Zphono at 10 times the price. Were I buying such a unit today, that's what I'd get. The only reason I haven't is that my trusty Apt Holman preamp is still fine and I love it, so I added an outboard DAC. But if and when the AH gives up the ghost, I'll probably go for a Parasound.

 

I don't think you get much more of anything you really need until you hit mid-4-figures. Even then, the improvements are subtle and mostly apparent only on the best source material through top quality equipment. The only other major consideration is the number and variety of your sources, as the 2100 and the Emotiva both have 8 sets of inputs and the Zphono has only 3. One of the reasons I bought the Apt 30+ years ago is that it has a comprehensive set of inputs, outputs and switching options. Of course, now that I've sold my open reel Crown and cassette deck and do all my recording on computer, I no longer need the versatility and could live very happily with the Zphono. If you plan to use the preamp in a HT system, the 2100 and Emotiva can accommodate you. Both have HT, HP and sub I&O / pass-through.

[obt_man]

They really need to be good ones and mated properly to the cartridge...

 

Agreed completely

[4est]

I'd take a look at the Parasound 2100 ($649), the Parasound Zphono-USB ($349), and the Emotiva USP-1 ($369). All are excellent preamps with MC/MM inputs - and all are fantastic values. The Z-phono preamp circuit is a John Curl design, and it sounds wonderful. Along with a pretty good integral DAC & USB output so you can rip your vinyl, I don't know of a better device than the Zphono at 10 times the price. Were I buying such a unit today, that's what I'd get. The only reason I haven't is that my trusty Apt Holman preamp is still fine and I love it, so I added an outboard DAC. But if and when the AH gives up the ghost, I'll probably go for a Parasound.

 

I don't think you get much more of anything you really need until you hit mid-4-figures. Even then, the improvements are subtle and mostly apparent only on the best source material through top quality equipment. The only other major consideration is the number and variety of your sources, as the 2100 and the Emotiva both have 8 sets of inputs and the Zphono has only 3. One of the reasons I bought the Apt 30+ years ago is that it has a comprehensive set of inputs, outputs and switching options. Of course, now that I've sold my open reel Crown and cassette deck and do all my recording on computer, I no longer need the versatility and could live very happily with the Zphono. If you plan to use the preamp in a HT system, the 2100 and Emotiva can accommodate you. Both have HT, HP and sub I&O / pass-through.

 

I hate to do this, but I heartily disagree with this. IMO, the first stage of amplification is the most important, especially in LOMC. I owned and Apt Holman 30 years ago, and frankly one can do much better. At that time I was running Magnepan MG1s, and traded it for a stock Dynaco PAS 3 that simply smoked it in every area except bass. If one is looking for a Curl design, some of the newer Parasound Halo, or maybe the Audible Illusions Modulus w/ the Curl MC board. If one is going to run LOMC, they need to be serious about it. You are starting from practically nothing, but it is a very sweet nothing and worth the trouble.

 

I do not know about the Emotiva, but the Z phono was a budget piece, and I truly intend no offense bluesman. You might ought to try another yourself for kicks- you may be surprised. There is a lot of info in those grooves!

[bluesman]

I hate to do this, but I heartily disagree with this.

 

No offense at all - that's why we can get chocolate AND vanilla, 4est! To each his own, and we're all the better for it. I've built and modded many a PAS, and I agree heartily that there's great sound in them there tubes. My first "real" system was an Eico preamp and stereo 70 amp that I built in college in '64 and modded continually for 5 years until I could afford to try "better" stuff. I bought a Mac MX110 in '69 to drive a pair of Sony monoblocs (yes, Sony!), and began the dreaded fall down the slippery slope. I built Dynas and Citations (and truly wish I still had my II), then bought Marantz (7c / 8b), Crown, Yamaha B2, Mac 60s, Hafler 500 etc etc etc.

 

All this stuff drove everything from Rectilinear IIIs to Infinity Reference Standards to Klipsches to LS3/5as (which I bought new in '76 and still use and love). At my worst (my wife's description, not mine...), I triamped the RSes with the 8b on top, the Citation II in the middle and a Crown (later replaced by a Haffler 500) on the bottom.

 

Yes, my audiogram remains normal. My Apt Holman (refreshed about 5 years ago but not modded) still sounds excellent to me through my PrimaLuna amp and LS3/5as driven by my Thorens TD125 MkII / SME Series II with Audioquest 404 MC. FLACs via Foobar through my Emotiva DAC also sound great, but this source doesn't ask much of a preamp. I'm always pleasantly surprised to hear my Apt against friends' current equipment in my system or theirs, and I found that the Zphono sounds to me through my system almost identical to my Apt. BTW, Holman made running changes to the Apt over the years of production, and the one(s) you heard may not have been the same spec as mine.

 

I wonder if you might like the Apt more through conventional cone speakers. I love Maggies, but MG1s weren't exactly universal mates for amps of any flavor - as I recall, they sounded much better with tubes of the day. I was sorely tempted to buy a pair several times, but I always bought something else instead. As for the Zphono, it's certainly a budget piece. But the preamp circuit is JC's and I think it's remarkably excellent. Sure I'd rather have a Halo, but it demands a hefty premium over the Z and the improvements are (to me) far less dramatic than the price hike.

 

I love hearing and learning from others' opinions! I try never to talk about something I haven't heard myself, and input such as yours makes me rethink and work to reconfirm or change my own impressions. Over the years, I've often been amazed that something I put away in favor of a "better" replacement sounded great ten years later.

[4est]

I love hearing and learning from others' opinions! I try never to talk about something I haven't heard myself, and input such as yours makes me rethink and work to reconfirm or change my own impressions. Over the years, I've often been amazed that something I put away in favor of a "better" replacement sounded great ten years later.

 

True that, and I am very glad to hear that you were not offended. I am not suggesting the PAS was a great piece either btw. I also own several of the other pieces you have mentioned. Curl is a good designer, and I retain a Modulus with his MC gold board, although I have been thinking of selling it and some other preamps around here to finance an Aesthetix phono stage now that I really do not need a active line stage.

[HIFI]

Parasound JC3 on the used market may get me close to my budget.

 

Bob at Bob's Devices recommended I look at a Jasmine now at 500.00 and I could always add his SUT later.

[mav52]

I still like the look of a TT and a well built pre-amp. And a pre-amp with a good phono stage is important is the center piece for good sound if a TT is used. Nothing like transferring garbage to a nice pair of speakers and a poor pre-amp.

[wkhanna]

Some interesting options here K & K Audio - Lundahl Transformers, audio DIY kits and more

 

Art Duddley has written on their basic SUT.

[Blake]

How about a Blue Circle Audio Fun Lo Thingee (a bunch of higher level innards- to use a very technical term, packed into a pvc pipe)?

 

6moons audio reviews: Blue Circle Audio Fon Lo Thingee

 

I also think the previously mentioned iFi phono appears to be promising.