Article: Jay-Z & Kanye West v. Magico Q7

[accwai]

Chris,

I have the Discoveries which are an earlier version. The simple answer is I don't play my music that loud, so I don't know. Plus WB speakers have angled tops, so I couldn't balance a glass there anyway.

 

Just tried it with a pair of Vertex, which does have flat top. Used my standard bass test track Mikuni from Ondekoza's album Fujiyama. At 100db @ 1m peak, you can clearly see ripples on the water surface. The Vertex is 23kg per side, while the Discovery is 25. I'd be really surprised if the latter would do much better here.

 

But it's not like the whole thing is shaking wildly or anything. Without the water, there would be hardly an indication of the glass being disturbed. Under my normal listening condition, this would be a non-issue.

 

[...] Based on my non-technical knuckle knock they are completely dead cabinets, unlike anything I've encountered constructed using MDF.

 

Yes, carbon fiber is an interesting material for speaker design. Stiffness matters, but don't you need also some weight for total absence of vibration? Every time a woofer moves, there is an opposite force on the cabinet... and that's where mass helps to keep cabinet completely still. Or I am missing something?

 

I've only skimmed through the white paper earlier today--it's very new and the speaker described there is the to be top of the line WB, which is not yet available. In any case, I think the idea isn't just stiffness but self damping as well. It's very stiff so it doesn't budge a lot. But to the degree it does, it stops flexing very soon after the initial input is gone. And since sound wave propagates in carbon fiber very fast, the fundamental frequency of the residual resonance is quite high. So it doesn't cause any low frequency boom.

 

I've knocked on quite a number WBs, including models higher than Discovery. I think aluminum speakers can be much deader. Instead, I would describe their response to a knock as crisp. Very light, relatively high pitch crack. Nothing substantial and gone in an instance. An approach that is very different from trying to be an immovable object taking on an irresistible force. That's my perception at least.

 

Andy

[Encore]

Pretty close, Pete ;-) However, the Parasound isn't standing in for tube gear--it is standing in for better solid state gear. In fact, the Parasound has been sold. I'm expecting its replacement any day now.

 

PS. I haven't forgotten about the Jarre link I was going to mail you. It's sitting on auto-archived Outlook data, so I need to remember while I'm at my desktop computer, something which hasn't happened yet ...

[NiHo]

Andy,

The results of your water test on the Vertex are very interesting. Particularly given that the Vertex costs around ten per cent of the cost of the Q7. As you note the Vertex weighs roughly the same as a Discovery. The main difference would be bass unit is vertical in the Discovery versus horizontal in the Vertex. Probably causes more vibration in the Discovery.

 

Nigel

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi guys - I should also add that the Q7 is a sealed enclosure.

 

Try sealing your ports very tight and then run the glass of water test :~)

[heycarlos]

Hi Pete - I'm willing to bet if Magico could make this speaker with equal performance using lighter and cheaper materials it would. Shipping costs of the aluminum and steel have to be outrageous.

 

Do you have any measurements of the cabinet resonance on the Genelec speakers? I am really interested in the whole Genelec approach. I wish some high end dealers carried them so I could hear them other than at the AES show flow.

 

You can find genelec at any Guitar World store and probably any other dealer specializing in pro\studio gear.

[The Computer Audiophile]

You can find genelec at any Guitar World store and probably any other dealer specializing in pro\studio gear.

 

You couldn't pay me to listen to the Genelecs at a Guitar Center / World :~)

[DigiPete]

You couldn't pay me to listen to the Genelecs at a Guitar Center / World :~)

 

Well, if you are ever in Denmark, I'll serve surround and cold beer ;-)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Well, if you are ever in Denmark, I'll serve surround and cold beer ;-)

I'd love to take you up on the offer. I don't have any plans for Denmark currently but I'll be giving Computer Audio seminars at the Poland Audio Show in November :~)

[agentsmith]

Not sure if the water test is an automatic inference to good sound.

 

Speaker makers like Harbeth, Living Voice, Audio Note/Snell and the more recent Kiso speakers are designed with thin wall and are supposed to vibrate with the music rather than fight it. The Kiso in particular is apparently designed to recreate reverberation qualities of the music.

 

Any opinions on the opposing approaches? I guess Magico's approach is more brute force hence the high cost.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Not sure if the water test is an automatic inference to good sound.

 

Speaker makers like Harbeth, Living Voice, Audio Note/Snell and the more recent Kiso speakers are designed with thin wall and are supposed to vibrate with the music rather than fight it. The Kiso in particular is apparently designed to recreate reverberation qualities of the music.

 

Any opinions on the opposing approaches? I guess Magico's approach is more brute force hence the high cost.

 

I'm certainly not a speaker designer but can't imagine the speaker cabinet vibrations reproducing more accurate music compared to the drivers.

[mav52]

Hi Mav - Music is music to me. I don't care if it's classical, jazz, or gangsta rap. Also, I don't believe a loudspeaker that usually sits in a listening room out of site of most people is the best status symbol a person could purchase. I'm thinking most people would never know if you owned the Q7s. On the other hand a second home ...

 

A lot of these people that do own $100,000 plus systems you mostly couldn't get into their homes anyway. And a second home, actually a lake house and it's called investing and also a good return on your investment. I never got that with audio equipment, vintage cars yes, collectable guns yes, vintage guitars at times yes but audio equipment good luck making money on that. But enjoyment is listening to music which could be a life time investment for some regardless of the cost.

[The Computer Audiophile]

But enjoyment is listening to music which could be a life time investment for some regardless of the cost.

 

I agree 100%

[4est]

Yes, carbon fiber is an interesting material for speaker design. Stiffness matters, but don't you need also some weight for total absence of vibration? Every time a woofer moves, there is an opposite force on the cabinet... and that's where mass helps to keep cabinet completely still. Or am I missing something?

Agree that shipment cost is not much of an issue these days... I paid a bit more than 2k to ship my MM3 to Japan (6 crates with nearly 2000lbs)

 

Yes, you are missing something... That mass works more against you than for you as it "holds" energy that is put back into the system.

[Bear]

Yu don't have to spend $150,000 to have vibration free bass. Try the same experiment on a $2,000 ML Depth i subwoofer and you will not have any vibration either.

[Bear]

You don't have to spend $150,000 to get vibration free bass. Try the same experiment on a $2,000 ML Depth i subwoofer....

[joelha]

I'm just curious, does anyone know the make and model # of the SPL meter used in the video?

 

Joel

[stereotaipei]

Yes, you are missing something... That mass works more against you than for you as it "holds" energy that is put back into the system.

 

That's true, that's why you need good damping... mass alone doesn't work. But your speaker cabinet is subject to a force opposite to the force exercised on the membrane of the woofer... so without mass it would move.

 

Btw, I just spent 4 hrs listening to a Wilson XLF system in a dedicated room, driven by DCS Vivaldi and the big mono Boulder amp. Putting your hand on the XLF, you could easily feel the vibrations while playing music. Quite disappointing. The owner agreed that his second system based on Q7 sounded much better.

[kana813]

Here's the right speakers for listening to Jay-Z & Kanye West music:

[john dozier]

While the steel engineering is beautiful and heavy, I can't help but think that there must be smarter ways than to stiffen a square box.

Pressure cast aluminium (aluminum in the US) in double curved surfaces with stiffening ribbes could offer same stiffness at lower cost and weight.

Then I'm probably just being your usual technology strategies, product development specialist and engineer nerd.

 

Genelec may offer some inspiration:

 

 

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PS. The Q7 picture is mirrored, probably to fit some marketing material. Sloppy!

The Paradigm Signature S1v3 uses aluminum in just such a way. Regards

[gcorley]

Here's the right speakers for listening to Jay-Z & Kanye West music:

 

And don't forget to sit in the sweet spot! :-)

[mav52]

and don't forget to sit in the sweet spot! :-)

lol,

[4est]

That's true, that's why you need good damping... mass alone doesn't work. But your speaker cabinet is subject to a force opposite to the force exercised on the membrane of the woofer... so without mass it would move.

 

Well sort of... If it is sufficiently stiff and secure, the mass just stores energy, which in turn adds distortion by secondary reverberations-hence the damping.

 

Mass just tends to be the easiest path to something good. These sort of designs attempt something great!

[DigiPete]

The Paradigm Signature S1v3 uses aluminum in just such a way. Regards

 

Intersting construction:

 

 

Thanks John

[astrotoy]

Spent over an hour today listening to the Q7's + Constellation set up in the photo. I listened to big chucks of 15ips 1/2 inch copies of of the Tape Project releases "Waltz for Debby" and "Arnold Overtures". I then listened to several digital cuts - including unreleased 176/24 Reference Recording jazz and classical organ and vocal and 176/24 digital copies of master tapes of a great old classical Decca release - Falla Three Cornered Hat conducted by Ansermet for which I have the original vinyl and the Esoteric 45RPM reissue. The Q7's were mighty impressive. What was most impressive were two aspects - the dynamic range and the subtle inner detail. I have both of the Tape Project releases, though in the 1/4 inch version, and I know the cuts that were played very well. I was spellbound listening to them - hearing little things that I had never heard before. The speakers are pretty big, though not as imposing as my Avantgarde Duos. I didn't ask to see the water glass test, however.

 

Larry

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks for the update Larry.