Comparison of "$100K+ Super Speakers" to "Real World" Top of the Line Models

[Blake]

I have heard a number of very good, very expensive speakers over the years, but over the last 5 years or so, I have not listened to any of the current megabuck models.

 

I do read about audio shows, review the comments and pricing etc. It seems speaker prices at the highest end have really blown up.

 

For those that do attend audio shows, or, better yet, have auditioned some of these $100K+ speakers in dealer showrooms or owner's houses, I am curious how they compare to top-of-the-line speakers from B&W (say, the 800 Diamond), Wilson Sasha, Revel Salon 2's etc. in the $20K- $30K range, or, even Magico Q5's at $60K?

 

Do these $100K+ speakers outperform the above models (I suspect they do not, but I am curious and thus the reason for this post)? If so, in your opinion, which $100K models do outperform the speakers listed above or similarly priced models in the $60-$20K range, and by what percentage?

 

P.S. Yes, I realize there is little or no consensus about which speaker is the "best" but that is no fun. Go ahead and throw out your subjective opinions!

[Blake]

...after further thought, perhaps it would be a very small % of people that could respond to this question. In order to broaden the audience, perhaps a better question might be how do the $20K-$25K speakers compare to $40K+ speaker models?

[jerry_rig]

To answer your original question, I think it is fair to say that, on average, the megabuck speakers generally do "outperform" their more moderately priced siblings. But at a cost -- on many levels. First, the "presentation" of the larger systems tends to be different. Most large, expensive dynamic-based speaker systems use larger (and/or more) low frequency drivers. They may also have separate cabinets for low a high frequency drivers. They usually are not well suited to smaller listening spaces. And they can (though not always) require more powerful amplification. What you usually gain is greater dynamic range and greater (low) frequency extension. Given your system, I'm sure I am not telling you something you don't know.

 

I have heard several high-priced models in dealer showrooms: Wilson Alexandria, Focal/JM Labs Grande Utopia EM, as well as the more moderately priced Nola Baby Grand. (For what it's worth, my own custom TAD Professional speakers sonically resemble the former two models in terms of scale, imaging and resolution.)

 

You mention the Magico Q5, a speaker I have not heard (though I have tried!). By recent accounts, the new Q7 is a significant leap forward. However, the Q7 costs $165K and weighs over 700 lbs per side. You are paying for the R&D, labor, bespoke drivers and parts, as well as the inevitable dealer mark-up.

 

That said, I am certain that 99% of audiophiles would be extremely happy with the current crop of $50K to $70K speakers.

[master]

When I heard Focal Grande Utopia it was my first experience to "premium" high end audio... I'd never heard anything like it (or that expensive) before. It was an experience, not just listening to music.

 

I've also heard Magico's Q7 and was mighty impressed. It was so silent and sublime... unlike anything I'd heard before.

 

Coming to how they fare against mainstream or even $,2,000, $5,000, $10,000, or $20,000 speakers well I'm of the opinion that 99% of the people will be happy for life with a $3,000 to $5,000 system. Seriously! Audiophiles are constantly looking for perfection (which does not exist IMHO) and hence are always searching for that slight/marginal improvement. Such premium speakers do offer improvement but how much will be debated and not always favorable in terms of price to performance ratio.

 

PS - Extremely difficult to quantify how much improvement... its a purely subjective opinion.

[Cincy2]

I've heard the top end Wilson's and a brand whose name escapes me but the price was greater than $100K. These speakers needed large rooms and high volume levels to show their best attributes. I have a more modest pair of B&W 800D's that have the same clean sound, precise imaging and drive albeit in my smaller room. Its hard to make comparisons however because there are so many variables - digital front end, amplifier, room acoustics. Everyone has their favorites but for my money, dollar for dollar, B&W is the best speaker available. Your mileage may vary.

[NOMBEDES]

I find many of the super high end speakers to be ugly, more suited to a German bunker cum nightclub than a modern living room. I do not dispute the fine workmanship, construction, R and D, attention to detail, etc but much of the design would never pass the wife test. Unless, of course, your wife is named Eva Braun.

[barrows]

My opinion. I used to work in the high end audio industry, and have listened to a lot of different speakers. I am going to restrict my comments to standard, box type dynamic speakers, as planars are a little different breed, and I generally prefer standard, box type speakers (but I do understand the advantages of planars, they are just not for me).

 

IMO: unless you have a very, very large room, there is no reason to spend 6 figures on speakers, even if you can afford them. Very large 100K and up speaker systems really need a very large space to operate in, otherwise they will not exhibit much (if any) advantage over more affordable models. In moderate sized rooms, speakers in the range of the Wilson Sasha, Avalon Time, Rockport Avior, Vandersteen Model 5 and 7, Von Schweikert VR5 (or equivalent current model), all provide exceptional performance, albeit with differences to suit different tastes/systems.

 

What bigger speakers in the 6 figure range will add is the ability to play at higher levels in larger spaces: If one has an unlimited budget, and, say, a 30-40 foot by 60-100 foot room, with appropriately high ceilings, then the 6 figure speakers can be an incredible way to go, especially if one is interested in creating a realistic illusion of a symphony orchestra. Of course, with speaker set ups like these, heroic amplification is going to be required as well...

[Blake]

Great comments so far. I am sensing a general theme, which is:

 

1. Small to large listening rooms: There is nothing to be gained by the $100K+ models, and more likely a performance disadvantage using the $100K+ models in small to large listening rooms as compared to the $20K-$50K models.

 

2. Very large listening rooms: $100K+ models have an advantage in terms of being able to play louder and fill the space with music, but at normal volume levels, perhaps these models have no sonic advantage.

 

which begs the question: is the overall audio experience in a very large room with $100K+ speakers better than the overall audio experience in a small to large listening using the sub $50K models? (again, your subjective opinion, knowing there is no objective correct answer)

 

I also wonder about price. Do some of the smaller manufacturers that sell the $100K+ models simply attach a large price tag to give the speaker instant prestige when in fact, the R&D, build quality, and performance does not justify the price when compared to other brands? How do these smaller manufacturers compete with the significantly larger R&D departments at the B&W/Madrigals of the world?

[beetlemania]

IMO: unless you have a very, very large room, there is no reason to spend 6 figures on speakers, even if you can afford them.

 

I agree (altho' my experience w/ >$100K speakers is limited to RMAF). IME, some of the stuff at $10-25K (Vandy Quatro, Thiel 3.7, Vivid B1) gets you nearly all of the performance of the stuff at $50-75K. Ie, the performance-price curve really flattens out by the time you get to the $50-75K group.

 

If I win the lottery, I'll probably choose among speakers like the Vandy 7, Avalon Time, and Vivid G2 without giving any thought whatsoever to the (extra) stupid-expensive stuff.

[barrows]

All things being otherwise equal, a large system, in a suitably dimensioned room, is going to have an advantage in musical realism, as it will be more able to produce a truly extended frequency response, and life like dynamics (which can only be achieved at relatively high levels). Smaller rooms do not support fully extended and even bass response.

There are just limitations to smaller room and systems which constrain what they can achieve. It is kind of like headphones: a good pair of headphones driven by a nice source can produce an astonishing amount of musical detail, but no one, ever, is going to mistake listening to headphones as a live band/orchestra playing in a club/hall.

 

Speakers are one area of audio where I feel prices are almost always entirely justified. In other words, you get a lot of "stuff" for your dollar. I have been in Avalon's cabinet production facility, and seen the amount of hand work which goes into building their cabinets. It is no wonder why good high end speakers cost what they do. If you are curious about speaker pricing, try getting a quote for quality custom cabinetry for your kitchen, and kitchen cabinets do not even produce sound!

A larger manufacturer, like B & W or Dynaudio, spreads R & D and manufacturing costs over many more units sold than a smaller company like Avalon, hence their economies of scale allow for a lower retail price. The downside is that larger companies often design by committee, and this can dilute the performance of the product in the end.

[Audio_ELF]

A larger manufacturer, like B & W or Dynaudio, spreads R & D and manufacturing costs over many more units sold than a smaller company like Avalon, hence their economies of scale allow for a lower retail price. The downside is that larger companies often design by committee, and this can dilute the performance of the product in the end.

I may be wrong here - but I think companies like Bowers and Wilkins will also aim for a product which will suit as many people as possible. Smaller companies aim for even smaller niches which mean higher performance, but only if they suit you well.

 

Eloise

[4est]

I may be wrong here - but I think companies like Bowers and Wilkins will also aim for a product which will suit as many people as possible. Smaller companies aim for even smaller niches which mean higher performance, but only if they suit you well.

 

Eloise

 

And often these "Flagship" products are for prestige, helping sales of the less expensive products and not needing to be profitable on a per unit basis.

[Part-Time Audiophile]

Speakers are one area of audio where I feel prices are almost always entirely justified. In other words, you get a lot of "stuff" for your dollar. I have been in Avalon's cabinet production facility, and seen the amount of hand work which goes into building their cabinets. It is no wonder why good high end speakers cost what they do.

 

Surprisingly (to me), I disagree. I think loudspeakers suffer just as much as the rest of the super high end when it comes to over-inflation. There appears to be a pathological divergence between the costs to manufacture (including R&D and advertising) and MSRP. Sure, shit is expensive. We all get that. But $250k for a speaker ... given how good and sharp looking and smartly put together a $25k speaker is, that kind of move just begs you to ask the question as to whether those costs are real -- or the result of crazy business practices, bad business decisions or just plain lousy engineering.

 

Yes, there are issues of size of the driver, bass output, and the size of the room it sits in. And yes, big speakers cost more. And yes, sometimes you have to have a big speaker to do big speaker things in that big ass room. But none of that entails a $250k price tag. The very idea is insulting (to engineers) and absurd.

 

Look -- it's true, cabinets cost a lot. But nowhere near that much. And if someone tells you that theirs do, there's nothing saying that you can't look them in the eye and say, with a perfectly straight face, "you're doing it wrong".

 

Anyway, given that you dont have an auditorium youre trying to fill with Stereophile Class A type sound in every conceivable spot, then, no, its generally not worth the money -- assuming youre shooting for sound quality and not penis size. If you do have an auditorium, then a pair of loudspeakers are never going to be the best bang for your buck -- you need a PA system. So given that most of us have real-world spaces (even the 1% tend to live in houses, not aircraft hangars), I think itd be fun to see if you cant take the money that the super speakers would cost and instead price out two stunningly good SOTA sound systems. The winner is the one that has enough money left over to buy a new Bentley, and not just a lousy BMW or Porsche.

[dallasjustice]

Surprisingly (to me), I disagree. I think loudspeakers suffer just as much as the rest of the super high end when it comes to over-inflation. There appears to be a pathological divergence between the costs to manufacture (including R&D and advertising) and MSRP. Sure, shit is expensive. We all get that. But $250k for a speaker ... given how good and sharp looking and smartly put together a $25k speaker is, that kind of move just begs you to ask the question as to whether those costs are real -- or the result of crazy business practices, bad business decisions or just plain lousy engineering.

 

Yes, there are issues of size of the driver, bass output, and the size of the room it sits in. And yes, big speakers cost more. And yes, sometimes you have to have a big speaker to do big speaker things in that big ass room. But none of that entails a $250k price tag. The very idea is insulting (to engineers) and absurd.

 

Look -- it's true, cabinets cost a lot. But nowhere near that much. And if someone tells you that theirs do, there's nothing saying that you can't look them in the eye and say, with a perfectly straight face, "you're doing it wrong".

 

Anyway, given that you dont have an auditorium youre trying to fill with Stereophile Class A type sound in every conceivable spot, then, no, its generally not worth the money -- assuming youre shooting for sound quality and not penis size. If you do have an auditorium, then a pair of loudspeakers are never going to be the best bang for your buck -- you need a PA system. So given that most of us have real-world spaces (even the 1% tend to live in houses, not aircraft hangars), I think itd be fun to see if you cant take the money that the super speakers would cost and instead price out two stunningly good SOTA sound systems. The winner is the one that has enough money left over to buy a new Bentley, and not just a lousy BMW or Porsche.

 

Scot,

Since when does cost of production determine the price folks are willing to pay for a product? The cost is important but certainly not the only factor in the final price paid.

[barrows]

Surprisingly (to me), I disagree. I think loudspeakers suffer just as much as the rest of the super high end when it comes to over-inflation. There appears to be a pathological divergence between the costs to manufacture (including R&D and advertising) and MSRP. Sure, shit is expensive. We all get that. But $250k for a speaker ... given how good and sharp looking and smartly put together a $25k speaker is, that kind of move just begs you to ask the question as to whether those costs are real -- or the result of crazy business practices, bad business decisions or just plain lousy engineering.

 

Yes, there are issues of size of the driver, bass output, and the size of the room it sits in. And yes, big speakers cost more. And yes, sometimes you have to have a big speaker to do big speaker things in that big ass room. But none of that entails a $250k price tag. The very idea is insulting (to engineers) and absurd.

 

Look -- it's true, cabinets cost a lot. But nowhere near that much. And if someone tells you that theirs do, there's nothing saying that you can't look them in the eye and say, with a perfectly straight face, "you're doing it wrong".

 

Anyway, given that you dont have an auditorium youre trying to fill with Stereophile Class A type sound in every conceivable spot, then, no, its generally not worth the money -- assuming youre shooting for sound quality and not penis size. If you do have an auditorium, then a pair of loudspeakers are never going to be the best bang for your buck -- you need a PA system. So given that most of us have real-world spaces (even the 1% tend to live in houses, not aircraft hangars), I think itd be fun to see if you cant take the money that the super speakers would cost and instead price out two stunningly good SOTA sound systems. The winner is the one that has enough money left over to buy a new Bentley, and not just a lousy BMW or Porsche.

 

Hey Scott,

 

A few thoughts... While I do agree with you somewhat when we get into the range of speakers which cost $250K (I do not even know which ones these might be?), my comments were more about the speakers in $15K to $40K range. Honestly I must admit that I have little (perhaps no?) experience with $250K speakers.

At the top of the market though (if =it really is $250K and up) we are probably talking about speakers which are produced at a level of a few pairs a year, essentially a custom built product, with no economy of scale whatsoever, and it is very likely extremely costly to build such such a thing.

Consider speaker cabinets which are milled from thick aluminum slabs, just the material cost for a larger speaker built this way will be enormous (heck, AL billet for moderate size electronic component chassis is over $1K, before the CNC mill even is fired up).

dallasJ: I do know that Wilson, for example, does actually price their speakers exactly this way: materials and labor cost, plus a reasonable profit= retail price.

 

When I first moved to Boulder, as a youngster, I worked painting houses. We did almost exclusively new custom homes for a single developer, and these places were big projects. Every single one of them had a "Great Room", generally 40'x60' or larger, with 20' ceilings. Scott, you are in the DC general locale, right? I have driven around some of the nicer areas there in VA, there are plenty of homes which have similar rooms in them. The way this country is, there are some very, very wealthy folks around with plenty of big rooms suitable for big speakers...

[mav52]

The majority of people buying speakers costing over $100k well do it cause then can and usually have someone like their business manager and interior designer do all the purchasing for them. These are the same people driving $100k plus cars, have million dollar yachts and private jets. I would think it's not about how they sound than it is about just spending the money cause they can and they look cool. Audio manufacturers be it speakers or amps build these high dollar models knowing that the people with money will buy them.

[Audio_ELF]

The majority of people buying speakers costing over $100k well do it cause then can and usually have someone like their business manager and interior designer do all the purchasing for them. These are the same people driving $100k plus cars, have million dollar yachts and private jets. I would think it's not about how they sound than it is about just spending the money cause they can and they look cool. Audio manufacturers be it speakers or amps build these high dollar models knowing that the people with money will buy them.

I think actually the Audio manufacturers build them to show what they can do when money is no object. It's part publicity and party enables them to find new ways of doing things that they can then work down into lower cost products. If they make any sales to recoup costs then thats a bonus :-)

 

These days multi-millionaire prefer Bose iPod docks sadly.

 

Example - B&W created their FST surroundless driver (I believe) as part of creating the Nautilus a £55,000 pair of speakers requiring quad-amping. This was then scaled down to become part of the N800 series, further reduced for the CDM NT/700 then CM ranges before finally being cost reduced to that a version became affordable for the current 600 series.

 

Eloise

[maelob]

Offer and demand. If some people are willing to buy them companies will make them. However that does not mean they are the best or even worth the price. But again as long as there are people with stupids amount of money willing to buy them somebody will make them.

[mav52]

[quote

These days multi-millionaire prefer Bose iPod docks sadly.

 

Eloise

 

 

Not sure where you live, but 3 houses down the guy which is into the big millions has a room full of Rockport Arrakis speakers powered by Classe mono blocks and the only reason he has them is because he said their were cool looking and his kids liked the. I asked how do they sound, he said ask my kids (girls) they watch movies and listen to Bieber on them. About lost my lunch when he told me that.

[maelob]

That's the reality, some people will buy expensive stuff because they can. They probably go to an audio "consultant" with no budget and ask for the "best" lol

[Jay192]

The majority of people buying speakers costing over $100k well do it cause then can and usually have someone like their business manager and interior designer do all the purchasing for them. These are the same people driving $100k plus cars, have million dollar yachts and private jets. I would think it's not about how they sound than it is about just spending the money cause they can and they look cool. Audio manufacturers be it speakers or amps build these high dollar models knowing that the people with money will buy them.

 

Such people can buy many things but never class and style. I guess they also never really fully 'know' what they've bought.

 

But there are many people I know who do buy $100k+ cars and can drive them very well and know a lot about them. Their lap times on a track will be 5-10% slower than a pro in the same car, and they can tell you the weight of the wheel nuts!

 

For audio, I like to compare a company's flagship speaker with their #2 and #3 and consider if the (diminishing) marginal pickup worth it. If purchasing then it's room size that will mainly be the driver then budget.

 

I doubt we will ever see a $100k+ speaker purchaser on this forum who purchased just because they can.

[mav52]

 

I doubt we will ever see a $100k+ speaker purchaser on this forum who purchased just because they can.

 

I pretty good statement

[NOMBEDES]

Can a speaker cost as much to design, build and market as a option heavy Porsche 911?

 

If you consider a 911, there are a lot more parts. A lot more labor costs. A lot more marketing. There IS more of just about everything. Yet there are 100 + Speakers which cost just as much as a very high end car.

 

Now consider the margin on a speaker v. a 911. I would guess a speaker craftsman would only have to sell one or two flag-ship speakers to make his company profitable.

 

Thoughts?

[barrows]

Can a speaker cost as much to design, build and market as a option heavy Porsche 911?

 

If you consider a 911, there are a lot more parts. A lot more labor costs. A lot more marketing. There IS more of just about everything. Yet there are 100 + Speakers which cost just as much as a very high end car.

 

Now consider the margin on a speaker v. a 911. I would guess a speaker craftsman would only have to sell one or two flag-ship speakers to make his company profitable.

 

Thoughts?

 

Your analogy is not really sensible. The 911 is a mass produced automobile, I am absolutely sure more 911s are produced every year than all the $100K speakers on the market combined. Additionally, the 911 has lots of compromises in its design and build quality in order to remain reasonably priced (for instance, it is not 100% carbon fiber), whereas speakers produced at the $100K+ level are no compromise designs.

I think a more accurate analogy would be the $100K+ speaker to a F1 car... Now how much does the F1 car cost?

[NOMBEDES]

Your analogy is not really sensible. The 911 is a mass produced automobile, I am absolutely sure more 911s are produced every year than all the $100K speakers on the market combined. Additionally, the 911 has lots of compromises in its design and build quality in order to remain reasonably priced (for instance, it is not 100% carbon fiber), whereas speakers produced at the $100K+ level are no compromise designs.

I think a more accurate analogy would be the $100K+ speaker to a F1 car... Now how much does the F1 car cost?

 

 

 

Well you have made a good point maybe an F1 is a better comparison. How about this 300 lbs of speaker (plus or minus), carbon fiber et al and a 3000 lbs (plus or minus) car?