"Streaming ends for me today…" Neil Young

My objective fact that Tidal is hyping it's service with a false claim of streaming 1411...

Wait, did you just double-down? I admire that.

Don't mind me. I'll be over here listening for watermarks in Universal Music streaming services.

Warning - On-Topic: This whole "Neil Young stops streaming" topic just popped up on my Yahoo! news feed. Kudos to Mr. Young for elevating this issue in the public consciousness. We surely need the old crank when there are so many insidious forces -- e.g. low-bitrate lossy, watermarks, loudness war -- working against us. (And you thought I was talking about Bernie Sanders.)

John and George must be rolling over in their graves over the lost streaming revenue

I'm sure Yoko and Olivia are very happy to have the money.

I can't help but think this is more about something else than sound quality. If Neil removes all his content from download sales offering MP3 then I'll start to think its about quality.

Something is up here. I agree with your assessment of not pulling his music from places that sell his music at lossy quality (Apple anyone?). This whole streaming paradigm is getting quite a bit of press lately and I'm not sure I get where it's going. Possibly Pono will get into the act with higher resolution streaming? Who's going to be the one that gets MQA first?

Who's going to be the one that gets MQA first?

Assuming that listeners like MQA vs. listening to 24/96 PCM before its is processed with MQA. And then we have the DSD 128 Streaming work by Sony and Korg. More choices ahead in the streaming world.

Funny thing is, Mr Young's music is still there on Tidal. Listening to Archives Vol 1 as I type this.

Funny thing is, Mr Young's music is still there on Tidal. Listening to Archives Vol 1 as I type this.

He's still on Spotify ... and still sounding much better than a cassette or AM radio ...

Funny thing is, Mr Young's music is still there on Tidal. Listening to Archives Vol 1 as I type this.

He's still on Spotify too, still sounding better than I remember cassette ever sounding... And I still don't "get" his music.

Neil's strengths are his ability to rant and of course his music. If no one knows who he is, those strengths are diminished. If I were Neil, I'd keep ranting about quality, keep putting out good music, let streaming continue, and keep working on getting his fans and all music fans over to hi-res sources.

Glad you mentioned Satellite radio because it's the gold standard for ultra poor sound quality. I'm a subscriber for the news programming but the music delivery has to be 32kbps or less. It's unlistenable.

Satellite radio is still using MP2, I think?

I think Sat is using MP2 and I assume economics and infrastructure don't allow for any improvements in this area. I do think it's criminal that they claim CD quality.

It's not about revenue as much as it's about cultural relevance for The Beatles.

Cultural Relevance? What do you mean by that?

I don't think anyone would ever question the relevance of the Beatles nor their contribution to modern music - that's a matter of documented history.

Nor is Neil Young's contribution any less worthy to many people's minds - not perhaps from an early developmental role but certainly from a fiercely talented individual who has always followed his muse; regardless of what his fans or critics have to say.

If what you mean is that you don't hear their songs on the radio along with what the pop or hip-hop artists of the day are doing, then fine, I would agree.

But if we're talking about music that has purpose, meaning, an assured place in history and a catalog that will be listened to many years from now - then I would have to say their relevance isn't in question.

Cultural Relevance? What do you mean by that?

 

I don't think anyone would ever question the relevance of the Beatles nor their contribution to modern music - that's a matter of documented history.

 

Nor is Neil Young's contribution any less worthy to many people's minds - not perhaps from an early developmental role but certainly from a fiercely talented individual who has always followed his muse; regardless of what his fans or critics have to say.

 

If what you mean is that you don't hear their songs on the radio along with what the pop or hip-hop artists of the day are doing, then fine, I would agree.

 

But if we're talking about music that has purpose, meaning, an assured place in history and a catalog that will be listened to many years from now - then I would have to say their relevance isn't in question.

What I mean is that the Beatles will lose cultural relevance if nobody listens to their music and I think that would bug them more than anything monetary. Paul was angry when Michael Jackson licensed the track Revolution for Nike commercials because the song is about so much more.

On side note on streaming quality

I think we are missing one major factor The sound quality from streaming at what ever format is till not par or even close to CD quality from local files or transports. So what ever magic is going on with streaming calling it 1411 does not mean you are getting CD quality sound.

 

So Neil has a point here!

Sorry. Not in my experience. No reason a lossless streamed FLAC/ALAC/WAV/etc... potentially sounding any different from a CD in the same room or digital server a few feet away. Even worse to insinuate the difference is so large as to be "not par or even close to CD quality".

Please, let's not perpetuate ridiculous myths like this. If anyone in 2015 believes that an error-free, buffer-underrun free 1.4Mbps-equivalent bitrate stream isn't the equal of local playback of a CD off the same DAC, then they are just plain wrong or did not set up the equipment properly. (I've come across some of these problems like people forgetting to use ASIO drivers, or changing MIDI Audio settings on the Mac, or turn off MP3 transcoding then proclaiming loudly that streaming or computer audio "sucks"...)

This is the sad issue with Young's declaration. A shame that a musical legend will tarnish his legacy with such preposterous declarations so publicly these years whether to promote "high-resolution" without improving mastering quality, or now with this.

Sorry. Not in my experience. No reason a lossless streamed FLAC/ALAC/WAV/etc... potentially sounding any different from a CD in the same room or digital server a few feet away. Even worse to insinuate the difference is so large as to be "not par or even close to CD quality".

 

Please, let's not perpetuate ridiculous myths like this. If anyone in 2015 believes that an error-free, buffer-underrun free 1.4Mbps-equivalent bitrate stream isn't the equal of local playback of a CD off the same DAC, then they are just plain wrong or did not set up the equipment properly. (I've come across some of these problems like people forgetting to use ASIO drivers, or changing MIDI Audio settings on the Mac, or turn off MP3 transcoding then proclaiming loudly that streaming or computer audio "sucks"...)

 

This is the sad issue with Young's declaration. A shame that a musical legend will tarnish his legacy with such preposterous declarations so publicly these years whether to promote "high-resolution" without improving mastering quality, or now with this.

Hi Archimago - I understand you have strong beliefs about this topic, but you shouldn't deny the UMG watermark may be responsible for audible differences.

Universal’s Audible Watermark | Matt Montag

 

Please, let's not perpetuate ridiculous myths like this. If anyone in 2015 believes that an error-free, buffer-underrun free 1.4Mbps-equivalent bitrate stream isn't the equal of local playback of a CD off the same DAC, then they are just plain wrong or did not set up the equipment properly. (I've come across some of these problems like people forgetting to use ASIO drivers, or changing MIDI Audio settings on the Mac, or turn off MP3 transcoding then proclaiming loudly that streaming or computer audio "sucks"...)

Where's pl_svn...? Here's a declaration of bits is bits. Others stand in line.

What I mean is that the Beatles will lose cultural relevance if nobody listens to their music and I think that would bug them more than anything monetary.

It already has.

What I mean is that the Beatles will lose cultural relevance if nobody listens to their music and I think that would bug them more than anything monetary. Paul was angry when Michael Jackson licensed the track Revolution for Nike commercials because the song is about so much more.

The question is, what is the Beatles cultural relevance?

On the other hand there are plenty of music loving teens and twenty years olds who know who the Beatles are - at least in the UK, who cares what Americans think :-)

Hard to pull the wool over this crowd's eyes... (unless perhapd, your name is Jay-Z? )

Seriously, this is all about Neil Young not getting his way with Steve Jobs, and the "threat" to Pono. Not a thing to do with the music or anything else, save money.

The sale of Pono's has, apparently, slowed down drastically now. Ton of them for sale, as it is not the newest thing on the block anymore.

I have ignored streaming since its inception. It may end for Neil Young. I do enjoy my Limited Custom NY Chrome Pono, dated or otherwise.

And streaming may have ended for NY, but just recently started for me with a subscription to TIDAL HIFI.I am not a fan of JayZ (please no arguments) or Beyonce (please no arguments) as the point of my post is not to criticize either of them. I am a fan, however, of The Beatles, and probably own every album they released in Mono, Stereo, and any other format/resolution to be found. Anthologies galore as well.

Recently, I also subscribed to roon with a life-time membership. I feel in love with roon. And purchased Dirac Live as my favorite player, Amarra Symphony with iRC, compelled me to add Dirac Live to roon. I even started a new thread. That led me to reconsider streaming so I purchased Amarra sQ+with iRC and Amarra For TIDAL.

I purchased Neil Youngs recent Monsanto Years and received every resolution it was offered when I purchase the CD/Hi-RES DL, and was even provided with the MP3. I discovered the title at TIDAL and played it. Hope NY doesn't mind.

I have since changed my mind as in a 180 degree turn around. What compelled me was finding a Bill Evans album I do not already owned that I thoroughly enjoyed listening to through roon/TIDAL HIFI and Amarra For TIDAL. I am trying to find it to buy even though I can play it anytime by streaming. I have no opinion about NY's decision. Music I enjoy when available, I will always purchase as I prefer to have the media in my library. And I admit that streaming has opened me to music I either did not know about despite large collections for artists i enjoy and opens me to new artists I might glaze over and ignore. The Beatles? Love them. I have 78s from the 40s. Don't play them, but I know about the artists. And between roon and title, my reach into the vast collection of music is truly a boon with roon and TIDAL and Amarra For TIDAL with a little help from my friends.

Enjoy the anonymity,

Richard

On side note on streaming quality

I think we are missing one major factor The sound quality from streaming at what ever format is till not par or even close to CD quality from local files or transports. So what ever magic is going on with streaming calling it 1411 does not mean you are getting CD quality sound.

 

So Neil has a point here!

If you haven't already, try setting up a Ramdisk, downloading your listening choice to it and turning off wifi to listen off line. Big beneficial difference to streaming live......on Qobuz anyway, which already sounded better to me than Tidal the last time I compared. Might address your concern.

To be clear, I am not disputing Neil Young's preferences or perspectives. His point has validity as his wont. Ironically, the first album I have ever streamed from my new subscription to TIDAL HIFI was a Neil Young album, The Monsanto Years.

Nor am I equating TIDAL HIFI streaming's quality displayed at 44.1 on my Dac with my redbook CD conversions to AIFF. NY's Monsanto Years album streamed was not enjoyable to my ears. Yet the Bill Evans album I selected next sounded much better. Streaming and critical listening for enjoyment are not equivalent in my opinion no matter what method is used to accomplish streaming.

I am using streaming as a benefit for auditioning and assessing albums I do not have in my collection. My assessment would not be based on the quality of rendition when streaming but the music composition.

I appreciate Liam's recommendation. Just not interested in constructing that method, though I have never heard the quality of rendition with that method used for streaming or as other's do, routinely playing their collection.

Not taking a stand on the matter. Just clarifying my experience as I never argue with perception. Nor expect anyone to agree with mine. I am happy if someone else is satisfied. For me, the enjoyment of music is paramount. How one achieves that experience is their province.

Enjoy the music,

Richard

Hard to pull the wool over this crowd's eyes... (unless perhapd, your name is Jay-Z? )

 

Seriously, this is all about Neil Young not getting his way with Steve Jobs, and the "threat" to Pono. Not a thing to do with the music or anything else, save money.

 

The sale of Pono's has, apparently, slowed down drastically now. Ton of them for sale, as it is not the newest thing on the block anymore.

Do you believe that Neil Young started Pono to make a few dollars? How naive. Some of you people take yourselves far too seriously. You should get out more often.

Do you believe that Neil Young started Pono to make a few dollars? How naive. Some of you people take yourselves far too seriously. You should get out more often.

I doubt he became involved with to make a "few" dollars - that is probably what is under his skin. He expected to make lots and lots of dollars.

To believe otherwise is naive beyond all belief.

-Paul

I doubt he became involved with to make a "few" dollars - that is probably what is under his skin. He expected to make lots and lots of dollars.

 

To believe otherwise is naive beyond all belief.

 

-Paul

Paul,

For goodness sake, the man is worth close to a quarter billion dollars. He's the highest earning musician in the world with revenue of close to $75M for 2014-2015. Do you, in your sincere and wide-eyed innocence seriously believe that there was anything other than altruism behind the Pono effort?

NY has publicly stated that the player was developed to allow people to hear music the way the artists intended - and that if someone else wants to pick up the ball and make players or music available he's fine with that.

Dreaming up some ridiculous and unfounded opinion that you then post online doesn't make it so.