Whats more important? DAC or decent amp for sound quality?

[plankwalker]

I ask because im starting out building a low budget system. I thought a decent DAC should be low on my list at first -- Speakers -> Amp --> DAC... but Peachtree has me confused placing their DAC and pre above the amp.

 

For a small system of about 40-60 watts of juice, I was looking at the DAC-iT and a cheap amp like the new Emotiva integrated, maybe even a Dayton (gasp) or I could go NAD and an Hrt streamer II for my budget.

 

Right now I have a set of Paradigm atoms and would be looking to upgrade to a set of Totems or PSB Imagine's. I am using one of the better soundblaster discrete cards right now i'm embarrassed to say, but it does sound better than an Ipod DAC and I have a better opamp and shielding for it which might make it sound close to the Streamer I think.

 

Thanks,

 

Jason

 

[nemick]

This is an age old question really and doesn't have an absolute answer for most of us. In reality, your amp cannot make use of information that isn't there in the first place. Based upon this premise, your DAC should be as good as you can afford or justify. Alternatively, a poor amp might not do justice to a good DAC, hence the chicken or the egg analogy..

 

The answer is probably in the middle somewhere, but in this instance, you're probably better off taking a balanced view. Decide upon your budget, but also the items that you might consider upgrading in the future. If it were me, I would spend the bigger chunks of money on the items I was sure I would be keeping for a while and take it from there.

 

Others opinions will almost certainly vary, but that's good too.

 

[Julf]

Indeed - amps are not improving dramatically (apart from the new D-class ones), so an amp you buy today should still be OK in 10 years. An DAC will probably not, as digital technology is moving rapidly, and new formats, functionalities and bit rates will appear. So I would spend more money on the amp, and plan to upgrade the DAC as new, improved (and probably cheaper) stuff comes along.

 

[beetlemania]

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/60/603505.html

 

 

 

[AudioExplorations]

From my experience my amp upgrades have been real in your face sound quality upgrades whereas my DAC upgrades have been much more subtle. Expensive DACs really need to have EVERYTHING else optimised before they make a worthwile improvement. I would divide the cash 25/75 on DAC/amp.

 

[James1776]

IMHO, any competent amp will work in a modest system. You have to spend serious money to get audible changes in amps unless you speak of going from solid state to tubes. The DAC makes a bigger difference and it is much easier to get a decent one without selling the car or hocking the Rolex. That said, the DAC is obsolete out of the box. The rate of change is astounding year to year with the prices falling and the sound improving so, if it was me, I would buy the best amp you can get on your budget (I like Emotiva)and then a V-dac or its equivalent (look at the offerings from NuForce).

 

[Oscar09]

i would say a decent amp will give you good sound quality. Right now i hate some old Home theater yamaha amp that dosent have the greatest sound. I used to run an rca cable from the headphone output to the amp. The sound was ok but not good in any way. I now added an HRT music streamer ii and its a night and day DIFFERENCE. Literally. Now i can only imagine with an actual integrated amp how much better this would sound. I also dont have any high end speakers, its a pair of some polk monitor 30's series ii. But trust me, with the DAC, its a HUGE difference. Some people are still amazed at how my polk's sound. Its all because of the HRT DAC.

 

[esldude]

Impossible to answer in a way.

 

Okay, if your amp is inadequate enough it will harm the sound far more than the Soundblaster card you are using. A Soundblaster at its worst is not as bad as an amp that is overburdened, clipping a bunch or simply unable to handle the speakers. You do need to pick speakers to know how much of an amp is needed.

 

I have a suggestion of sorts. Look on your local craigslist for large Denon AV units. The amps in those are not bad at all, and have some real power. Best deals are some of the 100 wpc or larger models made just before they started including HDMI inputs. Without HDMI no one wants them. They have pretty darn decent built in DAC's, good amps (yes it will be 7 channels and you only need two). Some of those which sold for big money just a few years ago regularly show up for $200 or less. I got one for a relative for $130 and it was the largest model

 

These Denon's will be big and heavy and have a million outputs, but who cares. The two you need will work quite well for not a lot of money. You get a good DAC (works at high sample rates too), FM tuner for convenience and remote control. Feed one of these from a low cost USB-SPDIF converter, use the built in DAC and connect some good speakers like the Totems or PSB's and you will have pretty good sound for not a huge ton of money. Later you can upgrade as you wish easily. Examples are the AVR 2805 (105 wpc) and 3805 (125 wpc) from 2005. You might even run into newer models in this price if you look at them a bit.

 

Just stick with the 2800 or 3800 series. I have heard a 3803 power some large Thiele speakers which are a fairly stiff 4 ohm load. It handled them well even at quite loud levels. Yes, some sure enough high end amps would sound better, but the Denon sounded better than many low buck amps do.

 

[Paul R]

If you have to buy both, try to buy about the same quality of each. A DAC that is much much better than the amp will show up every flaw in the amp, and vice versa.

 

I would go visit a dealer and let them advise you. You do not have to take their advice, but it is sometimes very much worth listening to.

 

-Paul

 

 

[plankwalker]

Wow! Interesting advice from everyone. Much appreciated. I can see how this is a chicken/egg question. I have been doing a lot of reading and asking questions at my local hi-fi shop, Best Buy. JK

 

Given your answers I assume that ill be ok given my budget proportions. For the amp, I know power is equally important as i've discovered that already. But if solid state hasn't come that far I am curious about going cheap. Seems like amps in my modest price range are feature loaded when all i need is 1 or 2 inputs and a volume control. no phono or sub or tape loop. I tired a 50wpc T-amp and didnt think the sound was very good at all unfortunately. I dont see the rage. The old Denon AV receiver is interesting because 80wpc is all that I will ever need considering I live in a city town home. But at the moment that amount of quality power is outside my budget I think?

 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

Roughly?

 

[Fafner]

Speakers

 

[Paul R]

A NAD BEE316 Integrated Amp is about $350. A really good DAC can be found for between $150 to $500. A slightly upgraded 50wpc NAD BEE326 will sound even better, and will mate very well with say, a $460 PeachTree DAC*IT.

 

Since we don't know your budget, it is difficult to make better suggestions.

 

-Paul

 

 

[plankwalker]

Well, amp/dac around $500. At my local hifi shop I was going to pick up the NAD 316BEE and a pair of totem mites for a total of about 1200. Ofcouse there is Used on audiogon which is fine. Im focusing on the NAD only because I heard it with the totems and its within my price range.

 

But then I discovered the decco and thought that seemed like what i needed, but im not sure the 30wpc into 8ohms is enough to play with. 25 watts wasnt enough to drive my paradigms that well. The first decco can be had for 500 refurbished from their site which seems like a good fit. However, I have 300 dollars in amazon gift cards from santa that Id like to use, and I can put that towards the NAD or DAC-it with that.

 

I just looked up that Denon on the fleebay. they are going for 100 bucks. SO these will sound as good as a low end NAD or Emotiva ? plus a Decent DAC? Tempting but my god what a beast. I noticed the AV makers have come out with some supposedly better quality integrated amps geared towards the audiophile market lately.

 

[AudioDoctor]

you can use all those giftcards...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Peachtree-iDecco-Black-Integrated-Amplifier/dp/B0035CIO3A/ref=pd_cp_e_1/188-0599652-4883461

 

DO you like to crank the volume up a bit? If you do, this has more watts, and probably sounds pretty good too, Match it with a V-Dac 2 or something, and I bet it will be acceptable.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-SR4023-Stereo-Receiver/dp/B001EMBKNO/ref=sr_1_23?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1326169072&sr=1-23

 

I have also heard good things about Outlaw products, seems even someone at Stereophile likes them.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Audio-RR-2150-RR2150/dp/B001ENW9RE

 

All of these are 2 channel items.

 

re: the Outlaw...

 

“Priced in the neighborhood of budget phono preamps and cheap, underpowered, mechanical-sounding multichannel receivers—and well below the cost of even a moderately priced audiophile cable—Outlaw Audio's RR2150 receiver combines a full range of features with two powerful channels of amplification. Give a listen to this receiver! You'll be in for a big surprise—especially if you have megabuck electronics. If this was sold through the usual channels instead of exclusively online, it would cost twice as much and still be worth every cent!”

- Michael Fremer, Stereophile, March 2006

 

“Outlaw’s RR 2150 establishes a benchmark for what receivers its price can do, and it has also become a product I plan to use as my “go to” recommendation when people ask me for suggestions on how to get started in high-performance stereo. The Outlaw offers refined and powerful sound, clever yet practical real world features, and terrific value!”

- Chris Martens, The Absolute Sound/Playback, September 2008

 

[Paul R]

I just looked up that Denon on the fleebay. they are going for 100 bucks. SO these will sound as good as a low end NAD or Emotiva ? plus a Decent DAC?

 

Short answer? The NAD will definitely sound better. The 326 will actually sound a lot better, and has technology in it to avoid clipping. It also puts out a lot go juice - I have one sitting right here driving a pair of Maggie 1.7s. Current hungry beasts that they are. Does't break a sweat.

 

-Paul

 

 

[JimS]

Here's a few other options, I've been very impressed by the Cambridge amp lines and have a 640a in my secondary system and put a 840a in my parents system. I've not heard lower priced DACs lately so will leave that commentary to others

 

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/444250 - you likely won't outgrow this one for quite some time

 

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/444771 - at the 50/50 split pricepoint

 

I've also had good luck with Fosgate 4100/4125 which are 4-channel (or can be bridged) and can usually be found very cheaply on agon. You would need volume control in your dac if you go this route.

 

[plankwalker]

Thanks for all great suggestions. I know this topic comes up a lot, but you guys seem much more experienced than other forums ive checked out.

 

Im considering a decco2 speaker combo for 850, and maybe i could get a few bucks back selling the little speakers it comes with to put me back on budget. Im going to have to go back to the store for the third time and listen to some small totems through the decco2 as worried about the amp. But I like that it has switchable digital inputs.

 

The safer route might be to go with the NAD and Totems and get a DAC when I can.

 

I think its between those two.

 

[JimS]

One last piece of advice (to echo Fafner's comment) is that IME speakers will have much greater impact on system sound than an amp or dac. You're likely better off finalizing speaker choice then auditioning amps to find something sufficient to drive them at your preferred listening levels.

 

Also (DISCLAIMER, this is addictive) if you have some mechanical aptitude and a bit of time you may want to consider DIY speakers - many perform way above price-point. Here's a few recommended places to start:

 

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-gettingstarted

 

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655

 

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=main.html

 

 

 

 

[plankwalker]

Jim now your just making it more tuff I have looked extensively at designs and it is hard to do.d small speakers. As in 10 inch or 12 in bookshelves. I looked through what u gave me and I found one that I'm thinking of building. But it uses a parts express aluminum woofer. Since I want to use a metal tweeter rather than textile in afraid ots going to be extremely revealing. The design is called the microbe. In the first link. Ive never heard a speaker that uses a metal woofer. But I listen to mostly acoustic music so I want something clear but not fatigueing

 

[JimS]

That sounds like a fun first project!

 

IME the reputation for metal woofers sounding fatiguing is typically due to the breakup modes not being appropriately squashed in the crossover. The PE reference series is very high quality and the microbe has LR4 plus a notch filter (which puts the breakup mode >30dB down) so should be fine at reasonable volumes. I'd recommend you consider the SE variant that uses the SEAS metal tweeter for the type of music you listen to.

 

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe%20SE/microbe%20SE.html

 

One other option if you can stretch to 14" and are looking for a REALLY easy first build (no crossover soldering or cabinet-making required, just assembly).

 

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair-with-cabinets/

 

FYI - here's a link that describes my current speakers (this is not my build, but Eric has done such a great job of documenting his build that I haven't needed to bother)

 

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/Avro.html

 

[Kimo]

with a Pass INT30A and it sounds good to me. If I upgrade to the Gill Audio DAC, things get a little better, but there is no revelation. I have tried the DAC with a 500.00 amp and it does not the Integra/Pass combo.

 

Heck, a 30.00 Sony 200 DVD player sounds pretty good, as does their 100.00 blu ray player. I have to go with amp.

 

[dklein7]

Hi,

 

I have been in your same shoes recently and have also been soliciting advice from these forums. My ambitions are similarly modest: I want to play my music from a PC using itunes, I like to download because I can't bother ripping, and I wanted to spend under $1000 for the total system.

 

But I have a fairly sensitive ear and HATE that harshy digital sound, particularly on acoustic albums, that you get with computer music and will do anything to get rid of it.

 

So I ended up with:

 

iTunes --> wireless to AppleTV 2nd gen ($100) --> optical into Audiogene DAC ($170) --> analog into Onkyo receiver with a "audio direct" option ($300) --> Polk bookshelves ($200) + Polk subwoofer ($250)

 

I first put in place the system without the DAC and still had the harshy sound, so brought in the DAC afterwards and it made HUGE HUGE difference. It is probably not the best DAC around, but none of the HRTs at my Hifi shop had optical in's (only USB) and this one was in the same price range with the optical input I wanted.

 

So for me, the DAC was by far the biggest source of sound improvement with everything else being equal (e.g. basic 256k AAC files, modest receiver and speakers).

 

I am not sure that "for the money" these are the best components you can buy, but they were the ones that were available at the time. And they are all reusable on a home theater system in another room if I decide to upgrade the core components. I have heard that Denon amps generally have better sound, and I am not sure what Polk's reputation are compared to other comparables, but for the money you are not risking much whatever you use.

 

My next goal is to bet a MacMini, put all the audio files on that, upgrade itunes with one of those players that will run on a Mac, and then manage playback remotely.

 

--Don

 

 

[audiojim]

Get the best amp (and speakers) you can. A good amp makes a tremendous difference, in making the bass have the meat it should have (even on small speakers), and in powering up fast when needed, which makes the music sound more realistic and better paced. Speakers are critical too.

 

The dac portion of your setup will evolve. Buy last years model of some musical fidelity or peachtree product and put the savings toward a better amp (and maybe better speakers). I strongly recommend buying used speakers and used amp (or dealer demos). Go to audiogon.com which is a great site with everything for sale.

 

[4est]

Find speakers you like first!

 

I think questions like this are generally misleading. Of course the amp is more important if it is inadequate for the task- lack of power, current, impedance mismatch ect. for the load (speakers). Therefore in my experience, get speakers you love and an amp to drive them properly. After that it is source, source, source until you reach the limit of your speaker's resolution and then it is back to the beginning for another round if you care or dare to.

 

This, of course, assumes that you know how to set things up and have a proper room- which supersedes all other factors. These are systems after all, and need to be treated as thus.