Best Version of Bach Cello Suites?

[sphinxsix]

5 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

This is something I definitely find kinky, Cello Suites on violin.

I OTOH don't. Love eg Barshai's Goldberg Variations on organ or the version by Trio Zimmermann. I'm quite far from purism here - if the final effect makes musical sense and touches me emotionally or in any other way - it's ok for me. Beside that Bach himself and many after him used to make transcriptions of his pieces for different instruments. Do you listen to eg GV only played on harpsichord for which it was mainly composed.? 

(I'm obviously aware that early pianos appeared during Bach's lifetime, around 1700 in Italy)

[Dandou]

There were always been different kinds of transcriptions of the works of Bach. Violin concertos that were transcribed for keyboard, the Art of the Fugue, transcribed for string quartet or for orchestra… There's nothing wrong in that. 

[AnotherSpin]

34 minutes ago, Dandou said:

There were always been different kinds of transcriptions of the works of Bach. Violin concertos that were transcribed for keyboard, the Art of the Fugue, transcribed for string quartet or for orchestra… There's nothing wrong in that. 

 

Of course. There are dogs and there are cats. Do you want cats to pretend to be dogs or do you want dogs to act like cats? Bach's repertoire for violin is quite extensive by the way. If there are 50 or 100 pretty fine renditions of Cello Suites performed on the cello, what should encourage interest in arrangements for other instruments? Maybe a lack of interest in a proper performance? I can't help you there. 

[Dandou]

3 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

Maybe a lack of interest in a proper performance? I can't help you there. 

Had you read my full post, you would have noticed that I said that I have a half a dozen of recordings of the Cello Suites, and that one of my favorites is the 2007 recording by Jean-Guihen Queyras. 

[AnotherSpin]

12 minutes ago, Dandou said:

Had you read my full post, you would have noticed that I said that I have a half a dozen of recordings of the Cello Suites, and that one of my favorites is the 2007 recording by Jean-Guihen Queyras. 

 

I guess I remember your post. Was there any mention of a violin version? I recently saw a poster for a performance of the Goldberg Variations in a transcription for piano and drums. I guess I still haven't come to my senses thereafter. But someone likes it, for sure. The world is hopeless even without Bach on drums, so relax.

[Dandou]

3 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

Was there any mention of a violin version?

Yes there was, because it's a good transcription for violin, and a great interpretation.

There's no obligation to listen to it. 

[bodiebill]

15 minutes ago, Dandou said:

Yes there was, because it's a good transcription for violin, and a great interpretation.

There's no obligation to listen to it. 

Although transcribing a Chopin nocturne for anything other than a piano would be a disaster, much of Bach's chamber music is so abstract that it can be played on many instruments (harpsichord, lute, piano etc.). Sometimes he did not even stipulate the instrument himself.

[bodiebill]

I presume that not many here subscribe to the claim that the cello suites were actually composed by Anna Magdalena Bach?
https://daily.jstor.org/mrs-bach-write-cello-suites/

[The Computer Audiophile]

40 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

I presume that not many here subscribe to the claim that the cello suites were actually composed by Anna Magdalena Bach?
https://daily.jstor.org/mrs-bach-write-cello-suites/

Interesting. I'm halfway through the book I mentioned in the original post. I haven't seen anything suggesting Anna wrote it, but I'm not done yet. 

[MarcelNL]

12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Interesting. I'm halfway through the book I mentioned in the original post. I haven't seen anything suggesting Anna wrote it, but I'm not done yet. 

My theory is that many of those claims, like the one saying Alma Mahler wrote much of the work attributed to Gustav, are early conspiracy theories designed by activist feminists.... ;-) 

 

 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

 

This is something I definitely find kinky, Cello Suites on violin. Or, piano sonatas on drums or organ fugues on balalaika. Is there not enough music written for literally every instrument possible? Or, are Bach's Cello Suites not good enough to be performed on the cello? But, again and all over again. Since it's there, let it be. The world is imperfect and will never conform to my ideal view of what it should be. And since it is so, so be it. And I have no difficulty at all in accepting and leaving behind something that already exists independently of me and in no way depends on me. Everything is fine.

 

Podger is fine violinist, no doubt.

 

 

 

Don't get that. Composers have done transcriptions for other instruments or other groupings of instruments from an original composition for hundreds of years.  Including Bach, who often wrote versions of his cello, violin, flute, and lute works for piano.

 

Other composers also do it to their own works. 

 

It can add interest or other layers of understanding to a known work. The orchestration of "Pictures at an Exhibition" is one of the favorites of the classical repertoire.

As are small orchestra versions of Shostakovich's quartets. 

Segovia would have had an abbreviated career if he hadn't done versions of works not intended for guitar. 

There are many other examples.

 

 

[AnotherSpin]

13 minutes ago, firedog said:

 

Don't get that. Composers have done transcriptions for other instruments or other groupings of instruments from an original composition for hundreds of years.  Including Bach, who often wrote versions of his cello, violin, flute, and lute works for piano.

 

Other composers also do it to their own works. 

 

It can add interest or other layers of understanding to a known work. The orchestration of "Pictures at an Exhibition" is one of the favorites of the classical repertoire.

As are small orchestra versions of Shostakovich's quartets. 

Segovia would have had an abbreviated career if he hadn't done versions of works not intended for guitar. 

There are many other examples.

 

 

 

As I said I have nothing against it. If someone prefer transcriptions of well established scores, let be it. I have no problem to imagine someone enjoying Wagner's Der Ring performed on mouth harp. But I will stay with orchestra and singers, sorry for being so traditional.

[MarcelNL]

same here, whatever tick your boxes, those adaptations usualy does not work for me...few exceptions like Max Richters adaptation of Vivaldi 

(have to add that my tolerance for that the Vivaldi type of baroque is extremely low)

[sphinxsix]

3 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

If there are 50 or 100 pretty fine renditions of Cello Suites performed on the cello, what should encourage interest in arrangements for other instruments?

Maybe the very fact that there are 50 or 100 cello versions..

 

Frankly gentlemen, I'm talking to myself - AFAIK Another Spin is the only person here who has me on ignore (due to our deep disagreement on train music, long ago)..

 

Now I will allow myself perform some real magic and make him speak to himself..

 

5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

The world is imperfect and will never conform to my ideal view of what it should be. And since it is so, so be it. And I have no difficulty at all in accepting and leaving behind something that already exists independently of me and in no way depends on me. Everything is fine.

 

2 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

I recently saw a poster for a performance of the Goldberg Variations in a transcription for piano and drums. I guess I still haven't come to my senses thereafter.

...

 

2 hours ago, bodiebill said:

I presume that not many here subscribe to the claim that the cello suites were actually composed by Anna Magdalena Bach?

 

Let me quote a great cellist, Steven Isserlis:

"Anna Magdalena Bach did not write the Bach suites, any more than Anne Hathaway wrote Shakespeare’s plays, George Henry Lewes wrote George Eliot’s novels, or Freddie Starr ate his friend’s hamster.

Anna Magdalena copied out the Bach suites, in an error-ridden but invaluable manuscript, which may or may not be the earliest surviving source for the suites (Bach’s own copy, or copies, having been lost). The title page states clearly, in Anna Magdalena’s hand: 6 suites a Violoncello Solo senza basso composees par S(igno)r JS Bach.

The main “evidence” for the theory seems to be the testimony of a handwriting expert, who has decided that Anna Magdalena’s copy shows that “the speed of the writing and the spacing between pen lifts were suggestive of composing rather than copying”. Why? Certainly to my eyes – and incidentally to those of the two musicians I know, neither of whom believe the theory in any way – it is clearly a copy. There are no alterations or second thoughts, as there would be in a working manuscript."

 

Amen (at least I hope so).

 

[Jud]

6 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

As I said I have nothing against it. If someone prefer transcriptions of well established scores, let be it. I have no problem to imagine someone enjoying Wagner's Der Ring performed on mouth harp. But I will stay with orchestra and singers, sorry for being so traditional.

Funny you should mention mouth harp. I had a friend who would perform this theme song from an American TV western on mouth harp, and it was terrific. 😄

 

 

[AnotherSpin]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

Funny you should mention mouth harp. I had a friend who would perform this theme song from an American TV western on mouth harp, and it was terrific. 😄

 

 

 

Jud, I have no reason to doubt...) Of course, there are people who are experts at playing the mouth harp. Or the bagpipes, or any other thing that can be used to produce sound. There's nothing one can do about it. One can mentally ask what the fuck, and go about one's business. 

 

The original question was about which versions of the Cello Suites are the best. I think the question is very clear and suggests a clear answer. What do transcriptions for other instruments have to do with it? Perhaps I'm being too blunt, in any case obfuscating clear questions with crooked answers doesn't seem to be the point.

[bodiebill]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

Jud, I have no reason to doubt...) Of course, there are people who are experts at playing the mouth harp. Or the bagpipes, or any other thing that can be used to produce sound. There's nothing one can do about it. One can mentally ask what the fuck, and go about one's business. 

 

The original question was about which versions of the Cello Suites are the best. I think the question is very clear and suggests a clear answer. What do transcriptions for other instruments have to do with it? Perhaps I'm being too blunt, in any case obfuscating clear questions with crooked answers doesn't seem to be the point.

 

@AnotherSpin Maybe good to realize that even you prefer transcriptions. Isn't your favorite version the Casals? Who actually played the suites on an instrument quite unlike the one Bach wrote them for (larger, different strings etc.). A special case is the fifth suite which is written for a 5 string instrument, possibly a violoncello piccolo or a type of viola (which makes the Kim Kashkashian version more credible). Things are not so cut and dry as you make them appear :-)

[AnotherSpin]

11 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

@AnotherSpin Maybe good to realize that even you prefer transcriptions. Isn't your favorite version the Casals? Who actually played the suites on an instrument quite unlike the one Bach wrote them for (larger, different strings etc.). A special case is the fifth suite which is written for a 5 string instrument, possibly a violoncello piccolo or a type of viola (which makes the Kim Kashkashian version more credible). Things are not so cut and dry as you make them appear :-)

 

Things appear as they appear and I have nothing to do with it. Cello is cello, violin is violin. You may continue to split the hair, and I'd better listen to some Bach. No, not on a wooden spoons, I am too dry and lazy for such experiments.

[bodiebill]

2 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

Things appear as they appear and I have nothing to do with it. Cello is cello, violin is violin. You may continue to split the hair, and I'd better listen to some Bach. No, not on a wooden spoons, I am too dry and lazy for such experiments.

 

No problem. Everybody is entitled to their simplifications.

[AnotherSpin]

Just now, bodiebill said:

 

No problem. Everybody is entitled to their simplifications.

 

Exactly. I am entitled to listen what is best. Life is eternal why spend it on a bullshit.

[Dandou]

If you really want to be pedantic, it is unclear for which instrument the suites were intended, and this is actually a matter of controversy. 

 

Quote from wikipedia: 

 

Recent research has suggested that the suites were not necessarily written for the familiar cello played between the legs (da gamba), but an instrument played rather like a violin, on the shoulder (da spalla). Variations in the terminology used to refer to musical instruments during this period have led to modern confusion, and the discussion continues about what instrument "Bach intended", and even whether he intended any instrument in particular. Sigiswald Kuijkenand Ryo Terakado have both recorded the complete suites on this "new" instrument, known today as a violoncello or viola da spalla;^[11] reproductions of the instrument have been made by luthier Dmitry Badiarov.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Suites_(Bach)

 

Bach, himself, transcribed the fifth suite for lute. 

[AnotherSpin]

Just now, Dandou said:

If you really want to be pedantic, the instrument for which the suites were written is actually a matter of controversy. 

 

Quote from wikipedia: 

 

Recent research has suggested that the suites were not necessarily written for the familiar cello played between the legs (da gamba), but an instrument played rather like a violin, on the shoulder (da spalla). Variations in the terminology used to refer to musical instruments during this period have led to modern confusion, and the discussion continues about what instrument "Bach intended", and even whether he intended any instrument in particular. Sigiswald Kuijkenand Ryo Terakado have both recorded the complete suites on this "new" instrument, known today as a violoncello or viola da spalla;^[11] reproductions of the instrument have been made by luthier Dmitry Badiarov.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_Suites_(Bach)

 

Bach, himself, transcribed the fifth suite to lute. 

 

Pedantic? I only prefer to listen Cello Suites performed on cello... :-) No need to tell modern instruments are not the same as in Bach's lifetime, but we're not going to re-ignite an endless dispute about modern vs HIP again, are we?

[Dandou]

30 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

Pedantic? I only prefer to listen Cello Suites performed on cello... :-) No need to tell modern instruments are not the same as in Bach's lifetime, but we're not going to re-ignite an endless dispute about modern vs HIP again, are we?

The instruments at the time of Bach were not exactly as today's. 

These suites are called "Cello suites", because the copy of Anna was titled "Suites à Violoncello Solo senza Basso (Suites for cello solo without bass)", which does not seem to designate precisely the cello as we know it today.

In the two other copies of the suites, even an earlier one than the one of Anna, there's no designation of the instrument at all. 

 

This work remained obscured during the centuries, and was popularized only in the 20th century by the recording of Casals on a modern cello. Since then, many other cellists recorded it, and there were also quite a lot of transcriptions for other modern and period instruments. 

[Dandou]

Excerpt from the PDF of the album in which Rachel Podger explains her choice: 

 

CELLO SUITES ON THE VIOLIN: LEGITIMATE OR LOONY?

 

I was lucky enough to grow up with Bach’s music around me, and so the Cello Suites became part of my regular listening diet as the ‘other’ Bach solo pieces ‘not written for the violin’. I secretly coveted these works quite early on, not least because I found many established cello performances – however celebrated the players – to be performed in a style and tempo which reduced the dance character to being something almost incidental. Then, later at music college, I heard a suite played on a baroque cello and the music suddenly made sense to me, and it came to life with the help of the lightness and bounce of the baroque bow playing on gut strings. It really was a revelation.

 

Since, I have spent a fair bit of time coaching cellists, both modern and baroque alike, and found myself playing along to demonstrate various points. Gradually, I could feel these pieces joining the violin partitas and sonatas as another kind of ‘daily bread’; I started catching myself playing some of the movements I particularly loved while warming up, and realising that it was actually possible to play them on the violin, and to find

a special expressive vocabulary at the higher pitch. How could one possibly justify it, especially with works that have peppered the recording catalogue with some of the most iconic and adored string performances of all time, the Casals, Fourniers, Torteliers or Starkers? But what I was doing also seemed very much in keeping with Bach’s own habit of recycling his own compositions for different instruments and different uses. The examples are endless but I immediately think of the concertos appearing as sinfonias in cantatas, or concertos for violins turned into harpsichord concertos. The more I reflect, the less I feel the need to be defensive because Bach did far more outrageous things! Think of the Prelude of the E major Partita for violin turned into a full orchestral cantata movement with trumpets and drums...

[manisandher]

Janos Starker for me.

 

The playing is obviously superb, but I also like the room ambience in the recording. It's one of the few recordings I have that gives the impression of the sound emanating from well behind the speakers. Lovely.

 

Mani.