Does storage really matter? and if it does, why not rely purely on ram caching?

[Ghoostknight]

Hello

 

im wondering why people here swear on storage, sata cables and so on if ram caching is a thing

 

i guess not every player has this but MPD/Moode has a option to cache files in/from ram (input cache), so instead of steady streaming from storage, files get loaded at the highest speed possible into ram at once and get playbacked from there, once loaded into ram there should be no difference what so ever and it has to go through ram either way, so why not just cut the storage completly from the "equation" ?

beside maybe "noise/interference" from the storageform itself i dont see any reason why storage should matter with ram caching, or is it just noise from the storage that people are after? wouldnt a usb storage with usb isolator (with ram caching) the "ultimate" thing todo then ? this should in the end cut storage jitter and noise like completely, doesnt it? tho im unsure if a usb isolator is even needed since once everything is loaded into ram the storage should be in "idle" again

 

Curious what you guys say about the idea/thought :)

 

[bodiebill]

Good point. I play almost exclusively from RAM using GentooPlayer (GP) as follows

• select folder or files from NAS
• copy them to what GP calls ramdiskmusic with one click
• start playting from RAM
• deactivate network (automated option in GP)
• reactivate network when playing finishes (automated in GP)

No more storage- or network nervosa :-)

[Ghoostknight]

7 hours ago, bodiebill said:

Good point. I play almost exclusively from RAM using GentooPlayer (GP) as follows

• select folder or files from NAS
• copy them to what GP calls ramdiskmusic with one click
• start playting from RAM
• deactivate network (automated option in GP)
• reactivate network when playing finishes (automated in GP)

No more storage- or network nervosa :-)

Oh right, i forgot about Network :) much less (and a lot saved money) to worry about if ramcaching is implemented in the right way

 

I stream alot Qobuz on my Moode Setup, the thing i found as a easy fix was just using wlan, "galvanic isolation" included :)

 

i still use a normal rpi4 but disabled the inbuilt wlan/bt chip (tho from what i read its still "active" even if its disabled in software) and using a wlan dongle with a 2m usb extension to get it further away from the pi but my plan is to built a custom rpi4 with the cm4 lite (without wlan/bt module) and the official (modded) i/o board,, maybe even using (again) a galvanic isolator would be a good thing (Topping HS01 seems like a very cheap and effective option)

 

now while thinking about it, any cheap ethernet isolator will probably do the job just fine since we dont have to worry about SQ from streaming ( for example this very cheap one https://www.amazon.de/DeLock-62619-DrNetzteilucker-grau/dp/B00WZ3QHVQ/ref=asc_df_B00WZ3QHVQ/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=214109653348&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11193998358594454596&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9043353&hvtargid=pla-422086651845&psc=1&th=1&psc=1 )

but maybe there is still a difference in noise rejection from different isolators, im not sure actually, tho in theory they will all isolate noise to a very great extend and jitter isnt something to worry about with ram caching

[Ghoostknight]

and one thing more:

USB 2.0 High Speed has about 30-40mb practical throughput and the average flac file has about 20-50mb, so the song you start playing gets probably loaded into ram in like 5 seconds max, ethernet should be on par, wlan probably a little slower, nothing to worry about imo

 

just saying this because idk how gentoo implements it but MPD is starting playback right away, probably even if the first file isnt completely loaded into ram yet, if you add a album the remaining songs get loaded while playing the first one, which again is loaded into ram in like a few seconds

 

So in theory any cheap HDD will do the job just fine (with a usb 2.0 high speed isolator OR without isolator in a NAS with a network isolator or wlan), no need for expensive SSDs or any of this tinkery 

 

and im not one of those "objectivists" saying nothing digital mattters, i do believe in cable sound, usb/digital sound and so on, i just dont see any reason why storage would still matter with ram caching, except maybe the first few seconds ? which is negliable imo, specially if you always listen to whole albums 

 

Edit: the above posted network isolator is probably not sufficient enough, i dont think its true galvanic isolation, but this one is https://mi-1005.de :) 

[jabbr]

The ZFS filesystem which comes with Ubuntu does RAM caching automatically.

[LondonDan]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:42 PM, Ghoostknight said:

i still use a normal rpi4 but disabled the inbuilt wlan/bt chip (tho from what i read its still "active" even if its disabled in software) and using a wlan dongle with a 2m usb extension to get it further away from the pi but my plan is to built a custom rpi4 with the cm4 lite (without wlan/bt module) and the official (modded) i/o board,, maybe even using (again) a galvanic isolator would be a good thing (Topping HS01 seems like a very cheap and effective option)

take a look at the upcoming mercury server streamer based on Cm4 module for ideas. Isolation may not be the only thing to consider but also reclocking even if it just going to Ram. 

 

 

[LondonDan]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:42 PM, Ghoostknight said:

now while thinking about it, any cheap ethernet isolator will probably do the job just fine since we dont have to worry about SQ from streaming ( for example this very cheap one https://www.amazon.de/DeLock-62619-DrNetzteilucker-grau/dp/B00WZ3QHVQ/ref=asc_df_B00WZ3QHVQ/?tag=googshopde-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=214109653348&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11193998358594454596&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9043353&hvtargid=pla-422086651845&psc=1&th=1&psc=1 )

but maybe there is still a difference in noise rejection from different isolators, im not sure actually, tho in theory they will all isolate noise to a very great extend and jitter isnt something to worry about with ram caching

Delock is a great budget isolator, I don’t hear any difference between earthing it and not earthing but do it anyway. I have not tried isolating the storage from the pi but instead the pi to the player. My pi4 server running LMS picoreplayer and has the delock idolater in the Ethernet line in /out an I found an improvement in body of music. I also have Wifi module turned off, I’ve not tested an external wifi module but wired connection for me was better than the onboard wifi by a long way. The Ethernet runs to a network switch with audio designed clocking board, reclocking made such a difference even if it’s loading to ram in my streamer. 
 

my point being that reclocking has an impact worth investigating some where in the system before the file hits your dac (deck will also reclock) even that file is ram stored /played.  isolating also has an impact but you may or may not like it depending on your system and how it reacts to isolating. But delock is super cheap to test out!

[davide256]

On 1/24/2022 at 12:47 AM, Ghoostknight said:

Hello

 

im wondering why people here swear on storage, sata cables and so on if ram caching is a thing

 

i guess not every player has this but MPD/Moode has a option to cache files in/from ram (input cache), so instead of steady streaming from storage, files get loaded at the highest speed possible into ram at once and get playbacked from there, once loaded into ram there should be no difference what so ever and it has to go through ram either way, so why not just cut the storage completly from the "equation" ?

beside maybe "noise/interference" from the storageform itself i dont see any reason why storage should matter with ram caching, or is it just noise from the storage that people are after? wouldnt a usb storage with usb isolator (with ram caching) the "ultimate" thing todo then ? this should in the end cut storage jitter and noise like completely, doesnt it? tho im unsure if a usb isolator is even needed since once everything is loaded into ram the storage should be in "idle" again

 

Curious what you guys say about the idea/thought :)

 

Things that work for me

 

1) use a minimalist CPU  endpoint with good MOBO hardware, not a super fast  CPU computer for USB out

2) don't go USB direct to DAC, use a DDC converter to coax/aes/i2s

 

Do this and just use whatever server/software floats your boat to feed the endpoint over wired ethernet.

 

IME the media server is like a noisy factory floor, easier/cheaper  to get good sound by sending its output still in digital

data format to an endpoint like a microRendu or an Atom powered endpoint with minimal "moving" parts. Just be sure

that the device has enough RAM cache for the file rates  and software you use

 

[cjf]

I feel the same way as @Ghoostknight in terms of the importance of the storage device holding ones Music, but with a few clarifications.

 

I think using a NAS is a good idea, assuming its a proper NAS with plenty of internal resources (RAM,CPU,GB ETH Ports and decent hard drives) as a deficiency in these areas could effect SQ.

 

The same story applies to the Music Server which is the brains of the whole operation. A shitty server will certainly hinder SQ.

 

To be clear, I'm not talking about requiring some "Audiophile" branded gear for any of the above. Just a good well known brand or home built equivalent of them.

 

Beyond that I dont buy into most network, storage, power supply or computer hardware "tweaks" anymore that we see often. I say this as someone who has tried and owned several of the common tweaks in the past. But overtime I realized that the real gains in SQ come from none of those things...IME. Dialing in your Room, adding Subs and spending allot of time tuning/blending those two things to work in harmony with the main channels is where the big gains are hiding.

[ASRMichael]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:47 AM, Ghoostknight said:

Hello

 

im wondering why people here swear on storage, sata cables and so on if ram caching is a thing

 

i guess not every player has this but MPD/Moode has a option to cache files in/from ram (input cache), so instead of steady streaming from storage, files get loaded at the highest speed possible into ram at once and get playbacked from there, once loaded into ram there should be no difference what so ever and it has to go through ram either way, so why not just cut the storage completly from the "equation" ?

beside maybe "noise/interference" from the storageform itself i dont see any reason why storage should matter with ram caching, or is it just noise from the storage that people are after? wouldnt a usb storage with usb isolator (with ram caching) the "ultimate" thing todo then ? this should in the end cut storage jitter and noise like completely, doesnt it? tho im unsure if a usb isolator is even needed since once everything is loaded into ram the storage should be in "idle" again

 

Curious what you guys say about the idea/thought :)

 

My setup until a month ago was exact as you say, caching only on my server, no drives except OS. I had a couple of NAS’s connected to my EtherRegen. This was my preferred setup for years, it just made more sense.
 

I’ve had a lot of changes in my server over the last year, so, I thought I would try storing local files using audiophile M.2, also my OS disc. I copied a few tracks and listened over & over. Did I prefer this? Was it any different? To my ears it sounded the same or both sounded as equally as good. So, I purchased a few large M.2 & installed them in my server.
 

This meant I could remove 2 x NAS drives. 2 less devices connected to my EtherRegen/Network. Less devices, ground planes on my dedicated mains. Less cables.
 

I don’t think there’s right or wrong way, experiment. If you can retain SQ by less is more then it’s a win, win.  
 

You’ve listed a few Pro’s by having no storage, I’ve listed above a few con’s by having NAS. 
 

If I had a better network setup would that sound better? Maybe?, probably? Would my local files sound as good if I didn’t have Taiko ATX, ULPS, DC3’s. So many variables. 

[davide256]

3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

My setup until a month ago was exact as you say, caching only on my server, no drives except OS. I had a couple of NAS’s connected to my EtherRegen. This was my preferred setup for years, it just made more sense.
 

....

 

If I had a better network setup would that sound better? Maybe?, probably? Would my local files sound as good if I didn’t have Taiko ATX, ULPS, DC3’s. So many variables. 

Sigh, wish I could do away with NAS. But can't afford a Taiko to reach that plateau. With off the shelf PC/NUC  the SQ edge for storage  was always with NAS,

even using Revelation Audio's FEMTO SSD.

[Ghoostknight]

On 4/30/2022 at 4:44 AM, cjf said:

Beyond that I dont buy into most network, storage, power supply or computer hardware "tweaks" anymore that we see often. I say this as someone who has tried and owned several of the common tweaks in the past. But overtime I realized that the real gains in SQ come from none of those things...IME. Dialing in your Room, adding Subs and spending allot of time tuning/blending those two things to work in harmony with the main channels is where the big gains are hiding.

Yes i totally agree, tho i heared how power supplys affect SQ but im with you, the room, speakers (and i use CamillaDSP todo roomcorrection and apply my "housecurve EQ") is where the real gains are hidden, i would say if EQ/DSP is 100% gain then for example power supplys may affect the SQ by around 10%, tho its a different type of gain, it mostly improves clarity and so on "overall"

 

i kinda avoided NAS so far since i think my moode setup with a attached SSD keeps many things from the equation (like network, NAS power supply and so on) and my library isnt too big that i need 20TB of storage (and even then, i would probably just go with one large SSD and maybe get a NAS as a purely backup) i think overall in audio the most minimalistic approach is often the best & cheapest

 

but on the other side i never tried NAS streaming, but i believe that people probably have a point with SQ changes, even if they are small but overall the reported changes just keep me away from NAS setups even if they are somewhat more convenient (if you wanna feed more devices, but i dont, maybe this will change in the future)

I should check if its maybe even possible to use moode as a "nas equvalent" to stream to other devices since it also just uses SMB to share the attached storages, this would give the convienence of a NAS with the benefits of just using one device as the main music computer

 

i will experiment with usb cables somewhat soon, to detach power and ground from attached usb devices to my raspberry pi and feed them externally so they influence the voltage and ground lanes of the raspberry pi as minimal as possible (if you wanna go further you can use a usb isolator but usb 3.0 ones are kinda expensive, i think the cheapest begin at 300€) but i will also compare the modified usb cables with a usb 2.0 isolator (topping HS01 is kinda cheap with 70€ but it really hinders speed, specially with ssd`s) just to check what the difference may be

[AudioDoctor]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:36 AM, jabbr said:

The ZFS filesystem which comes with Ubuntu does RAM caching automatically.

 

But is it caching the entire OS into RAM? I think regular Ubuntu does this as well but I may be wrong.

 

edit: I think Ubuntu has also removed ZFS from the latest releases of the OS.

[Ghoostknight]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

But is it caching the entire OS into RAM? I think regular Ubuntu does this as well but I may be wrong.

i think if the filesystem itself is caching it only caches "used" files but i kinda think not only the ZFS filesystem does this since most OS`s load used files into ram till they are not used anymore, i think this is something very different to loading the entire OS into ram since files get just cached "on the fly" when they are accessed

 

but please correct me if im wrong and someone knows more :)

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

But is it caching the entire OS into RAM? I think regular Ubuntu does this as well but I may be wrong.

 

edit: I think Ubuntu has also removed ZFS from the latest releases of the OS.

 

Ubuntu essentially loads itself into RAM. You can boot it over the network (no local drive) and then pull the network cable and it will still work. It accesses disc essentially only when you commit writes. RAMFS prevents even that.

 

ZFS is quite available from the Ubuntu repository. The caching system is sophisticated and too much to get into here.

 

People obsess over some of these details without delving into the depths of the underlying OS and hardware which can be blitheringly complex. With a good isolating network e.g. fiber, the storage media is essentially irrelevant.