Gavin1977 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 I undertook an experiment JCAT USB XE (powered by Teddy Pardo) -> Sablon 2020 USB -> Matrix Audio x-spdif 2 (powered though the JCAT) -> Atlas Mavos Optical -> Chord qutest. This combination is transformational. Take away the final stage of the optical connection however and feed the qutest using the USB stage only and it’s nowhere near as impressive. Also, vice-a-versa, remove the JCAT and use the motherboard USB outputs to supply the x-spdif 2 and the magic is also lost. This is just like the idea of people daisy chaining network gear. So - any servers/streamers with better toslink outputs than the above? matthias 1 Link to comment
matthias Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: Atlas Mavos Optical Every product in this chain is first class. How much is the Mavros Atlas Optical? You could try one of the new Denafrips DDC, maybe starting with Iris, but to find a server with a better toslink output seems to be difficult. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Good suggestion, but would still need the JCAT & Sablon 2020 to get the signal from the music server over to the DDC without corruption. I’m not sure there would be much difference from using the x-spdif 2. I just wonder if there’s a music server out there with toslink out that can complete with the quality of this chain. Thus remove the need to convert from USB to optical. The Atlas Mavros optical is no longer in production, but it is comparable with the Audioquest Diamond by all accounts (sourced from reviews on head-if). I think the QED glass optical would be a decent match as well and probably not too far off. matthias 1 Link to comment
matthias Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 10 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: I just wonder if there’s a music server out there with toslink out that can complete with the quality of this chain. Thus the need to convert from USB to optical. You would need a PCIe card with toslink output. The two guys I would ask are @Miska and Emile Bok from Taiko Audio. Matt Gavin1977 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Or @EuroDriver? 😀 Link to comment
matthias Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: Or @EuroDriver? 😀 I think he is more into software (Taiko Audio Server) and on WBF. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 These owners of Chord DACs seemed to have great results with Wireworld Supernova 7 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-583#post-11028347 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-583#post-11029321 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-584#post-11031452 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-586#post-11043347 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-587#post-11043584 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-587#post-11046186 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-587#post-11047625 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-588#post-11050678 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-602#post-11111888 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-603#post-11114103 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-708#post-11592385 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo.702787/page-860#post-12297967 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/auralic-owners-unite.657266/page-111#post-12318808 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/auralic-owners-unite.657266/page-111#post-12353118 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audeze-lcd-i4-totl-in-ear-monitor-discussion.850292/page-118#post-14141788 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/page-793#post-14141844 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-tt-2-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.879425/page-692#post-15851454 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-hugo-tt-high-end-dac-amp-impressions-thread.756029/page-75#post-13263120 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-510#post-15084747 Software also made a significant difference when it's combined with the right hardware, this one costs about 40 quids (350 RMB) on top of an affordable (2GB = $35 / 4GB = $55) Raspberry Pi 4 Rev 1.2 http://www.stsd99.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=19465#p19465 http://www.headphoneclub.com/thread-740233-1-1.html https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=629041455828 £60 here while international (slow boat) shipping to UK is free https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001572289317.html Noël version of piCorePlayer (free) already sounded amazing while the latest V3 performed even better than V2 https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/60691-how-is-the-pi-4/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1102488 Though adequate cooling solution is a MUST as shown above, its boot EEPROM version should be the latest one as well https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/booteeprom.md Finally USB drives with decent speed should be able to boot up successfully, while slower ones ain't gonna cut it. Link to comment
matthias Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 3 hours ago, Gavin1977 said: So - any servers/streamers with better toslink outputs than the above? You use a Pink Faun SPDIF bridge https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/45-2909-spdif-bridge.html#/88-spdif_options-spdif_aes_ebu_clock_out_bnc/193-additional_clock_for_bridge-ultra_ocxo/195-bracket_height-792_mm_3118_inch and connect an ECDESIGNS ElectroTos https://www.ecdesigns.nl/blog/electrotos to the Qutest or you ask Pink Faun for an Toslink output. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 Yes I think the pink faun is looking like a good option. I'll put a request in. Some others that cropped up, Allo Digione signature... 400 femto second jitter apparently, so this is not in the same ball park as the Accusilicon AS318-B used in the Matrix Audio, but I liked it's galvanic isolation. Chord 2go/2yu is another interesting one. I did own one of the first 2go's that I directly hooked up to my Hugo2, but is sounded nowhere near like what I'm getting from the Qutest / Matrix Audio combo. I wonder if the optical / BNC outputs from the 2yu are any good. 2yu isn't released yet. Auralic is another possibility, but difficult to know if it will compare with the above chain. Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/building-a-raspberry-pi-based-streamer-a-guide-for-the-nervous.3969/page-19#post-271311 Quote I used to own an Allo Digione Signature and have compared it with PI2AES. Both boards are examples of great engineering. Allo sound is sensitive to the "clean power". Quote The Allo Digione Signature is sensitive to power supply (not a bad thing by itself). Depending on what the "best" in the subject means and how serious we really are, Digione Signature could very well be powered by the "best" PSU out there with an ever increasing price tag https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/41/?tab=comments#comment-1087450 Quote £3000 (4000 USD for North America) (1 rail) e.g. Chord M-Scaler £3700 (5000 USD for North America) (2 rails) e.g. a switch/clock combo £4400 (6000 USD for North America) (3 rails) e.g. Chord DAVE or BLU mk2 https://web.archive.org/web/20210120105107/https://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply Quote £3300 (4500 USD for North America) (1 rail) e.g. Chord M-Scaler £4050 (5500 USD for North America) (2 rails) e.g. a switch/clock combo £4800 (6500 USD for North America) (3 rails) e.g. Chord DAVE or BLU mk2 https://sites.google.com/site/customhificables/power-supplies/dc4-power-supply Quote £4000 (5400 USD for North America) (1 rail) e.g. Chord M-Scaler £4700 (6400 USD for North America) (2 rails) e.g. a switch/clock combo £5400 (7400 USD for North America) (3 rails) e.g. Chord DAVE or BLU mk2 There's also something like (standalone) BridgePi that could convert the output of JCAT USB Card XE / Taiko USB card into I2S first, and then reclocking that with FifoPi Q3 afterwards https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload https://github.com/iancanada/DocumentDownload/blob/master/OrderFormEmpty.xls Quote 31A. BridgePi USB streamer adapter, $29.00 USB Digital Interface AS318B PCM1536 DSD1024 Compatible With Amanero Italy XMOS To I2S https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000715894190.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001033056460.html https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USB-digital-interface-AS318B-PCM1536-DSD1024-Amanero-Italy-XMOS-to-I2S-/274101835307 https://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-digital-interface-AS318B-PCM1536-DSD1024-compatible-with-Amanero-Italy-XMOS-/133243573132 We'll only need one Pink Faun 24.576 MHz Ultra OCXO for FifoPi Q3 https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/192465-asynchronous-i2s-fifo-project-ultimate-weapon-fight-jitter-553.html#post6342839 Quote • Supports single XO mode https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/335881-iancanadas-rpi-gb-goodies-impressions-tweaks-mods-hints-156.html#post6494550 Quote I am using a McFIFO with 2 x pulsar clocks (45/49) and have spent some time tweaking the power supply. I'd recently run out of tweaks to do(!) and realised that by setting HQPlayer to always oversample to 192k/32bits etc I could do without one of the clocks, so I pulled out the one that wasn't doing anything. I wasn't expecting the nice uptick I experienced. A little bit more musical, a few more noticeable acoustic cues, a little more depth in the soundstage, tighter base plucks. I have a slightly strange and pimped setup where I use Ian's creations to re-clock the output from a pi3B+ and then feed that into a McFifo and re-clock it again. I played around with dual re-clocking a couple of years ago and the mod ended up staying. I tried removing the clock from the pi board but nothing very noticeable happened. Either being masked by the second re-clocking or perhaps the OCXOs react to power improvements more than the XO's I'm using in the Pi board. Anyway, I've stopped tweaking and am enjoying the music. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/335881-iancanadas-rpi-gb-goodies-impressions-tweaks-mods-hints-156.html#post6494611 Quote I confirm a similar surprise. I currently run a single 45mHz clock. It's a WTMC. In testing with the old NDK clocks to confirm I could run with one clock, I too was surprised that pulling the 48mHz clock improved the sound. I also set the player to resample everything with SOX vhq so I can listen to anything with one clock. Finally the clock(s) on either FifoPi Q3 and/or Allo Signature itself could also replaced by Pink Faun, as long as a compatible frequency is available https://shop.max2play.com/en/allo-digione-sig.html Quote Allo changed the clocks to the latest from NDK (ultralow jitter SDA) that have lower phase noise than the previous generations. Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 RPi + FifoPiQ3 + TransportPi + StationPi looks pretty tasty. Another interesting option also came up... slightly different: https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/opto-usb-optical-signal-isolation Will be interesting how it compares. Link to comment
matthias Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 34 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: RPi + FifoPiQ3 + TransportPi + StationPi looks pretty tasty. Another interesting option also came up... slightly different: https://audiowise-canada.myshopify.com/products/opto-usb-optical-signal-isolation Will be interesting how it compares. I thought you want a computer with Toslink output? Matt Gavin1977 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 Exploring different options... with the same ambition of further isolating the DAC from the server/renderer. USB receivers generate RF/EMI internally, so part of the sound quality uplift for using toslink / spdif is that the USB doesn't generate RF/EMI internally to the DAC. The opto USB solution allows clean linear power to be injected and also has optical isolation... how it would compare / perform against dual coax / toslink I'm not entirely sure, as I would need a further understanding the engineering within Chord DAC's. Based on what I'm hearing though, optical isolation works wonders. Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Yeah, it could be fun to experiment with his products and @tapatrick also shared some experiences on this site as well as Tir Na HiFi etc. https://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=348&t=5840425&p=42#80488788 As a friendly reminder, we've gotta be cautious about optical USB solutions since some of them might require USB 3.0 ports on BOTH ends https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/37764-usb-extenders-as-galvanic-isolators/?tab=comments#comment-849193 On 7/19/2018 at 1:48 PM, Audio said: But very careful about USB extenders that does USB 3.0. They can just do USB 3.0 and is NOT downward compatible with USB 2.0 standard which is what most DAC uses. Avoid this at all costs, I am a victim and you will find those USB3.0 fiber USB extender going at very low prices.....you now know why. The optical ones from Icron are no good for our DACs at all as shown above, same deal for another one mentioned below but they're still compatible with our external drives https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32999206380.html https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24966-ecdesigns/page/35/?tab=comments#comment-1073703 On 8/14/2020 at 11:25 PM, bodiebill said: Today for the first time I got satisfying sound from my external 4TB usb drive using wtfplay. Before today I much preferred playing from a little optane disk but it meant I had to copy files over (converting them to wav while at it). Today I placed the usb drive far away, in another room, powered it with 5V linear battery power and connected it with a fibre optic usb 3.0 extension cable: https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32999206380.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dOkuJku The NUC -- unlike my previous PC -- recognized the drive! The SQ was almost indistinguishable from that with optane. OPTO•USB from Dan Mance / AudioWise should be OK for both USB 2.0 and 3.0 ones. Another from China is only meant for USB 2.0 so it's also doing just fine, those SFP modules could be replaced by the ones from Finisar since they're recommended for the owners of SGM Extreme https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/72/?tab=comments#comment-1107076 Monoprice SlimRun USB (a.k.a. FIBBR from China) and Corning might not be ideal as we already learned from Dan before. Finally there's this Alpha USB from FIBBR but it might not work with all DACs without their firmware upgrade https://hd.club.tw/thread-268089-1-1.html https://pan.baidu.com/s/1cdpxVBCtqjQkpM8j52LFcw https://hometheaterhifi.com/blogs/fibbr-alpha-usb-audio-cable-review/ Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
matthias Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 On 2/2/2021 at 8:52 PM, Gavin1977 said: JCAT USB XE (powered by Teddy Pardo) -> Sablon 2020 USB -> Matrix Audio x-spdif 2 (powered though the JCAT) -> Atlas Mavos Optical -> Chord qutest. This combination is transformational. I think you have with this solution maximum optical isolation via Toslink. BTW, Toslink is also the preferred input of the upcoming ECD PowerDAC. So why bother with even more complicated solutions when this one is transformational? Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 29 minutes ago, matthias said: I think you have with this solution maximum optical isolation via Toslink. BTW, Toslink is also the preferred input of the upcoming ECD PowerDAC. So why bother with even more complicated solutions when this one is transformational? Matt Higher sample rates and many of the new DACs supporting USB, toslink is a dying breed. Also, just sheer interest Link to comment
matthias Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said: Higher sample rates and many of the new DACs supporting USB, toslink is a dying breed. Also, just sheer interest OK, but then this thread is OT, best start a new one 😀 Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 I think this thread has answered the question anyhow... I will report back Link to comment
Popular Post guiltyboxswapper Posted February 4, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 4, 2021 Credit to @lmitche a while back, Adnaco have a whole set of USB over fiber options here https://www.adnaco.biz/collections/s3b lmitche and Gavin1977 2 Link to comment
lmitche Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said: Credit to @lmitche a while back, Adnaco have a whole set of USB over fiber options here https://www.adnaco.biz/collections/s3b All my servers, from NUCs to AMD or Intel 10, 12 and 16 core beasts can all be built with the Adnaco USB remotes. For an entry level machine the Monoprice sounds really terrific. For those that can afford it, the Adnaco solution takes things to the next level. In both cases the quality of the 5 volt power supply has a huge impact. A PHD SR4T is ideal. The Adnaco runs at 10gbps and quality of the fiber and SFP+s really matters. I seem to be constantly rolling SFP+s. LOL Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/75/?tab=comments#comment-663450 On 5/16/2017 at 2:24 PM, romaz said: So, my Adnaco S3B has come in and it is indeed very good and the combination of Adnaco + tX-USBUltra is just heavenly. I see great potential with the Adnaco with its clocks replaced. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/78/?tab=comments#comment-664418 On 5/18/2017 at 8:09 PM, romaz said: Compared against the Adnaco, the Adnaco sounds flat while the tX-USBultra sounds thin. Bear in mind, these are relative differences. When listened to in isolation, you wouldn't necessarily think that that either was flat or thin. Combined, however, the result was this magical balance of all these qualities combined. I listened for hours and couldn't stop listening. No fatigue. It was that good. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/154/?tab=comments#comment-725093 On 10/3/2017 at 6:28 AM, romaz said: As it was Lee that personally modified the Adnaco I sent him, he got a chance to listen to it and even with its 3 clocks replaced, he told me he thought it was a step back because It was sounding flat. On 10/3/2017 at 6:28 AM, romaz said: Around the time I received the modified Adnaco back, I was also able to audition the ISO Regen and I found the ISO Regen to be so good that in its stock form, it was equivalent to the modified Adnaco. Around this time, I was able to access an SOtM tX-USBexp (non Ultra) and so I compared it to the modified Adnaco. I found Lee to be correct, even the non-ultra tX-USBexp was sounding more impressive to me than the modified Adnaco and when I added the ISO Regen to the tX-USBexp, this combo was easily better than the Adnaco. Better yet, tX-USBexp + ISO Regen only utilized 2 clocks while the Adnaco solution by itself utilized 3 clocks although this combo costs more than the Adnaco. Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted February 5, 2021 Author Share Posted February 5, 2021 Thanks @seeteeyou This supports the daisy chain approach of CAT USB XE (powered by Teddy Pardo) -> Sablon 2020 USB -> Matrix Audio x-spdif 2. Very interesting. Link to comment
matthias Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 hour ago, seeteeyou said: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/75/?tab=comments#comment-663450 https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/78/?tab=comments#comment-664418 https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/154/?tab=comments#comment-725093 Interesting for sure, but afaik @romaz uses in his later set-ups with the Taiko Extreme the "daisy chain" or "spaghetti" approach no more. However the set-up in the OP by @Gavin1977 is really nice. Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
lmitche Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 2 hours ago, matthias said: Interesting for sure, but afaik @romaz uses in his later set-ups with the Taiko Extreme the "daisy chain" or "spaghetti" approach no more. However the set-up in the OP by @Gavin1977 is really nice. Matt Yes, those 4 year old Romaz posts resurrected by CTU were before the contribution of the Adnaco solution with single mode fiber and SFP+s were understood. Done properly, the Adnaco solution is fantastic. One can continue to use audiophile USB cables, Sablon USB or Lush3, to connect the Adnaco endpoint to the DAC, and to gain the expected benefits of those cables as well. Gavin1977 1 Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio Link to comment
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