Help creating Ethernet and fiber Optic network for Innuos

[plissken]

UPC, APC, etc.. all refer to how the stinger (the actual fiber optic proud of the plastic surround) is shaped.

 

LC,SC,ST,MPO all refer to the physical standard of the connector. Like in audio you have RCA, XLR, S/PDiff.

 

From a bare knuckle stand point on SM or MM: Do what ever is more cost effective. Also keep in mind that MM optics are lower power if that matters to you in a green it up way.

[RC22]

I did figure the LC designation referred to the connector, but that is all I knew.

 

With respect to stringer shape and SM v MM....I can either ignore those options or maybe discuss it with a phone rep at either of the cable vendors mentioned in my previous post.  

 

With SM being so so inexpensive already, the notion that MM could possibly be lower still, seems crazy.  “Green it up”  Good one!

 

Does either SM or MM have an compatibility advantage in terms of one having a broader universe of reasonably priced switches, converters, power supplies, transceivers, etc. from which to choose?  Or are all such items compatible with either SM or MM?

 

As I said in this thread a while ago, the items needed to create a fiber network that I’d been shown for LC-LC, SM were very reasonably priced.

 

For future consideration, are various products from Uptone, Sonore all compatible with any optical cable being considered here? 

 

 

 

 

[plissken]

8 hours ago, RC22 said:

For future consideration, are various products from Uptone, Sonore all compatible with any optical cable being considered here?

 

The consideration is, for the products you mentioned, will only work with SFP (1GB) transceivers. As long as they are the same (SM or MM) on both ends you are good to go.

 

There is:

 

SFP= 1GB

SFP+ = 1-10GB

SFP28 = 1-28GB

SFP56 = 1-56GB

 

Suffice it to say for Home Audio Devices I've only seen SFP.  Since I roll my own and use a computer as an endpoint I'm not restricted to that and run 10GB. @Jabbr runs even faster.

 

So the above are the speed formats for SFPx. Then you get to the type of cabling.

 

For SFP it's primarily either SX or LX/LH. SX is OM2, OM3, OM4, OM5 MM cabling and LX,LH is OS2 SM cabling. Then just what ever terminations you need: LC,SC,ST,MPO. Most likely LC.

 

*SX transceivers are dirt cheap: $6-$9

 

Note 1: BiDi LC style SFP modules can only use OS2 (SM) cabling.

 

Note 2: There are Tx/Rx on everything that isn't BiDi. So you want to make sure you have an optical cable that has the connections reversed on the other end.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

@RC22I don't think you need to worry about the armored aspect, unless you are really pulling the cable aggressively, and through a rough environment. With Ben and Willard joining your listening room experience. 🐀🐀
 

Here is an excerpt from the FS.com site/page:

"The armored patch cables will allow you to protect your critical and essential fiber optic network with a crush-resistant and rodent-resistant jacket... The jacket contains steel armor and an aramid yarn strength member which allows the cable to remain extremely flexible while also being crush and rodent resistant."

 

I have been "auditing" the fiber in-ground service installation around my home recently, and they use a similar cable, albeit rated for direct burial/outdoor. I have a small sample: very durable sheathing, glass signal conductor is additionally wrapped in fibrous strands. Extremely crush-resistant. They use this parallel cable run for troubleshooting potential future line issues in the adjacent conduit. Cool stuff.
 

Mega-overkill for the home, IMO. Good Luck & Happy 2021.

[jabbr]

I have installed LC-LC Single mode fiber in my walls.

The reason: Single mode fiber works with all speeds 1G,10G,25G,100G also the fiber is cheap.

[RC22]

Thanks, MarkusBarkus, re: armored.  You really fleshed it out for me and others hopefully learning a thing or two from this discussion.

 

 

2 hours ago, plissken said:

Note 2: There are Tx/Rx on everything that isn't BiDi. So you want to make sure you have an optical cable that has the connections reversed on the other end.

Uh, er, Umm.   My head is exploding.  Not really, but there a few "what do you mean?", "so, what your are saying is".  "Wouldn't there be an option, for that?" thoughts flitting about in my head.  Kidding aside, it does spur real questions like those I just used for humor.  

 

1. Do I need to order them reversed on one end?  If so, one would expect that option to be rather prominently presented  along with length and color.  And maybe it is, and I missed it.

2. Or, perhaps I can switch the connections myself.  Doubt that, somehow.

 

IF the 1 is yes and    2 is no.   Then...

 

3.  Had you not mentioned this, would I have very likely run a 30M cable thru my walls and attic only to discover much much later that it is "configured" incorrectly and thus is unusable?  If "yes"  this is a prime example of "you don't know what you don't know" (referring to myself, of course).  It's why I go all "columbo" on topics new to me.  Meaning I use lots of questions to ensure I don't off all "half-cocked" as my Dad used warn against. 

 

I'm expecting your answer will reveal in which ways I have misconstrued the matter at hand.  Lol.

 

 

 

 

 

[R1200CL]

@RC22Have a look at videos. Hope it helps  

 

[RC22]

36 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I have installed LC-LC Single mode fiber in my walls.

The reason: Single mode fiber works with all speeds 1G,10G,25G,100G also the fiber is cheap.

I plan to run it also.  The first time anyone suggested I consider running FO instead of Cat or in addition to it (to provide a FO option later), it was LC-LC single mode duplex. And no one has poo-poo'd as a poor choice for my network based my particular situation.  And, of so c-h-e-a-p.

 

Thank you Jabbr.

[MarkusBarkus]

...you'll be ordering "patch cords" so they will be already terminated correctly at both ends. They will only insert correctly/one way into the little transceivers (SFPs) you'll get. These little transceivers plug into the Fiber Media Converters (FMC) --or OM or switch. 
 

As real experts (not me) have noted: you just need to match types on both ends, and corresponding cable. 

Pics of some stuff I could pull quick for you: multi-mode cable into 10Gtek SFP into Ubiquity router. Assembled and "blow-out" model. 
 

Easy to over think it, I know. I was reading photonics papers on the lasers and refraction characteristics. Not needed at all! 

 

[RC22]

On 12/30/2020 at 3:19 PM, R1200CL said:

Are you able to pull a pre-terminated fiber cable in your house ?

If not you get an extra (possibility high?) termination cost. 

The guy running my cables is perfectly comfortable with running it pre-terminated.  

 

Thank you also, for tips on how I can engage my ISP for better gear.  If, they offer a separate modem and router option instead of the combo gateway, I would be very interested perhaps using their modem and getting my own much better-performing router.  

 

My main concern for ditching their gear completely is losing support/troubleshooting from the ISP if none of the gear is theirs anymore.  The concern may be unfounded.  I plan to chat with them about that.

 

A guy I know in TX does has his ISP's modem and his own Nighthawk (netgear, I think).  Says it is very trouble free and the ISP can help if trouble occurs b/c the modem is theirs.

[plissken]

44 minutes ago, RC22 said:

Thanks, MarkusBarkus, re: armored.  You really fleshed it out for me and others hopefully learning a thing or two from this discussion.

 

 

Uh, er, Umm.   My head is exploding.  Not really, but there a few "what do you mean?", "so, what your are saying is".  "Wouldn't there be an option, for that?" thoughts flitting about in my head.  Kidding aside, it does spur real questions like those I just used for humor.  

 

1. Do I need to order them reversed on one end?  If so, one would expect that option to be rather prominently presented  along with length and color.  And maybe it is, and I missed it.

2. Or, perhaps I can switch the connections myself.  Doubt that, somehow.

 

IF the 1 is yes and    2 is no.   Then...

 

3.  Had you not mentioned this, would I have very likely run a 30M cable thru my walls and attic only to discover much much later that it is "configured" incorrectly and thus is unusable?  If "yes"  this is a prime example of "you don't know what you don't know" (referring to myself, of course).  It's why I go all "columbo" on topics new to me.  Meaning I use lots of questions to ensure I don't off all "half-cocked" as my Dad used warn against. 

 

I'm expecting your answer will reveal in which ways I have misconstrued the matter at hand.  Lol.

 

If it's ever a problem with the cable being straight through or cross over you can remove the individual leads from the retaining clip and swap them.

 

Most will ship as needed (cross over). You normally need to special order straight through.

[R1200CL]

25 minutes ago, RC22 said:

My main concern for ditching their gear completely is losing support/troubleshooting from the ISP if none of the gear is theirs anymore.

You will normally need their first box in any case. If you like to do your own (router, DHCP, etc), you need to verify the supplied box can be put into bridge mode. (And WiFi will be switched off). 

 

We can discuss after you call them to check what they offer. Some ISP’s has been better with WiFi as they are tired of all support issues due to their bad supplied HW. 
 

TP-link, ASUS, Netgear, Linksys is all OK. Many tests on the net. Other options is used professionally Cisco gear. May be harder to setup and manage.
As said for WiFi, you should go for mesh solution and WiFi 6. AirTies is the the best in tests I’ve seen, and may ISP’s is using them..

 

Hope you get the fiber cable pulled 😀🎄

[RC22]

MarkusBarkus.  That's great.  Thank you.  I will drill down it later and get back with you.  It is easy to overthink.  In broad strokes, what you present here is in line with what my acquaintance from May set out for me.  I spoke with him yesterday btw and shared with him some frustrations I was having with myself for not better-understanding his instruction set.  Certain things just didn't add up.  I was finding incongruities and feeling dense.  It was a relief when I found out that I wasn't loosing my mind.  As we talked, he readily admitted he'd omitted some salient details and also simply mis-stated some things.  I don't blame him.  He knows what he is doing for sure as his networks work great.    He's audiophile who is trying to help me.

 

Technical writing is a "thing" and so I appreciate everyone's help and don't mind if a bit of clarification is missing here and there.  And I appreciate that those on this thread haven't minded my requests for clarification.  Furthermore, I know some of my requests aren't necessarily due to the writers' leaving something out..it is because I am as green as kermit the frog.

 

But....getting steadily less green.

 

 

[RC22]

Plissken, R1200CL......Thank you.

[plissken]

34 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

TP-link, ASUS, Netgear, Linksys is all OK.

 

I've turned into a big fan of TP-Link Omada Wireless. They have an $80 controller that will support up to 50 AP's and fully supports Wireless Roaming, Captive Portal, OAuth, 802.1X...

 

Their 1350AC's are really affordable at $56 a pop and I routinely achieve 38-40MB/s. I've full 5Ghz coverage with 3, all PoE, and I just installed them in closets so it's 100% stealth wireless.

 

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

I've turned into a big fan of TP-Link Omada Wireless. They have an $80 controller that will support up to 50 AP's and fully supports Wireless Roaming, Captive Portal, OAuth, 802.1X...

 

Their 1350AC's are really affordable at $56 a pop and I routinely achieve 38-40MB/s. I've full 5Ghz coverage with 3, all PoE, and I just installed them in closets so it's 100% stealth wireless.

I just skimmed their docs.  I see that they may have some sort of fee structure for their cloud platform?  Have you run into that?

 

[R1200CL]

People that use any of these ASUS models:

 

ROG Rapture GT-AC5300, RT-AC5300, RT-AC3100, RT-AC88U, RT-AC2900, RT-AC86U, RT-AC68U, RT-AC1900P, RT-AC68P, RT-AC1900/-U, RT-AC68W, RT-AC68R, RT-AC68UF, RT-AC68RW,

 

can upgrade to latest firmware and get what ASUS calls AIMesh. And then add a new item from the above list and create a very good mesh network. 

Wi-Fi Range Extender vs. Mesh Network: What's the Difference?

 

My intention with this post is only to show a possible way of creating a good WiFi mesh network with reasonable priced items, by the use of used ASUS gear as an alternative to exchange everything. Not all listed supports the latest WiFi 6 standard. (But ask yourself if your wifi connected items do as well).

 

Here is something more to read about Asus AIMesh. 
“In short, AiMesh is the only way to have a mesh that gives you the same feature set as even the most feature-rich standalone router.”

 

[plissken]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I just skimmed their docs.  I see that they may have some sort of fee structure for their cloud platform?  Have you run into that?

 

 

If it's a centrally managed cloud then there should be some fee structure. I'm just talking about the controller that is about the size of a deck of cars for $80.

 

They also make a Virtual Machine of their controller which is what I run.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

People that use any of these ASUS models:

 

ROG Rapture GT-AC5300, RT-AC5300, RT-AC3100, RT-AC88U, RT-AC2900, RT-AC86U, RT-AC68U, RT-AC1900P, RT-AC68P, RT-AC1900/-U, RT-AC68W, RT-AC68R, RT-AC68UF, RT-AC68RW,

 

can upgrade to latest firmware and get what ASUS calls AIMesh. And then add a new item from the above list and create a very good mesh network. 

Wi-Fi Range Extender vs. Mesh Network: What's the Difference?

 

My intention with this post is only to show a possible way of creating a good WiFi mesh network with reasonable priced items, by the use of used ASUS gear as an alternative to exchange everything. Not all listed supports the latest WiFi 6 standard. (But ask yourself if your wifi connected items do as well).

 

Here is something more to read about Asus AIMesh. 
“In short, AiMesh is the only way to have a mesh that gives you the same feature set as even the most feature-rich standalone router.”

 

I'd like to demystify 'mesh'. Mesh is 802.3k/v/r supported on the AP's and either a dedicated controller that speaks to all the AP's or one of the AP's wins an election and becomes the controller. They perform Spectrum Monitoring, Spectrum Analysis, Channel Planning, Power, etc and auto-tune.

[RC22]

On 1/1/2021 at 11:49 AM, MarkusBarkus said:

.you'll be ordering "patch cords" so they will be already terminated correctly at both ends. They will only insert correctly/one way into the little transceivers (SFPs) you'll get. These little transceivers plug into the Fiber Media Converters (FMC) --or OM or switch. 
 

As real experts (not me) have noted: you just need to match types on both ends, and corresponding cable. 

Pics of some stuff I could pull quick for you: multi-mode cable into 10Gtek SFP into Ubiquity router. Assembled and "blow-out" model. 
 

Easy to over think it, I know. I was reading photonics papers on the lasers and refraction characteristics. Not needed at all! 

And a piece of cat cable (aka, patch cord) connects my ISP-provided modem/router gateway to the FMC.  From there, my 30M single-mode optical cable connects to the transceiver i've plugged into the FMC and also connects to the transceiver in the FMC in my music room.  I use another Cat patch cord to connect from FMC to my Innuos.  Then finally, a USB cable connects my Innuos to my DAC.

 

Correct?

[RC22]

Should have started my previous post differently.

 

Strike "And"

 

Replace with, "So to make sure I understand the layout completely", a piece of cat cable (aka, patch cord) connects.....

[R1200CL]

6 minutes ago, RC22 said:

Correct?

Yes. But what FMC ‘s ?

[R1200CL]

On 12/30/2020 at 10:19 PM, R1200CL said:

ISP modem >(short)RJ45 >2960>fiber>2960>(short) RJ45>2960>fiber>OM or ER>Innous. 

[RC22]

1 minute ago, R1200CL said:

Yes. But what FMC ‘s ?

I've not selected one yet.  For now I wish to just fish the fiber optic cable at the same time I am having the the cat 6 run.  In case I wish to try optical ethernet later.

 

But wouldn't your suggested cisco 2960G be a good one?  

[R1200CL]

1 minute ago, RC22 said:

But wouldn't your suggested cisco 2960G be a good one?  

Very. And you can use both fiber and RJ45. A cheap TP link FMC, will only do fiber. And add a SMPS.