Thoughts on keeping it all on all the time vs using standby / off?

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Most well designed equipment today has protection circuitry to accomplish this.

 Not necessarily power cut-off, but in the case of Power Amplifiers, disconnecting the speakers within milliseconds of a  damaging D.C. component. I use such a PCB in my own DIY Class A amplifier.

It also mutes the speakers at switch on and switch off to prevent thumps, and can disconnect the speakers if the heatsinks temperatures exceed a specified temperature .

[Allan F]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Not necessarily power cut-off, but in the case of Power Amplifiers, disconnecting the speakers within milliseconds of a  damaging D.C. component. I use such a PCB in my own DIY Class A amplifier.

It also mutes the speakers at switch on and switch off to prevent thumps, and can disconnect the speakers if the heatsinks temperatures exceed a specified temperature .

 

My power amplifier, at least, has protection circuitry that both goes through a start-up routine before turning the amp on, and shuts the amp down should something go wrong.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

My power amplifier, at least, has protection circuitry that both goes through a start-up routine before turning the amp on, and shuts the amp down should something go wrong.

 

9 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

 This PCB kit can also be retrofitted to many other amplifier designs.

[fas42]

36 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Not necessarily power cut-off, but in the case of Power Amplifiers, disconnecting the speakers within milliseconds of a  damaging D.C. component. I use such a PCB in my own DIY Class A amplifier.

It also mutes the speakers at switch on and switch off to prevent thumps, and can disconnect the speakers if the heatsinks temperatures exceed a specified temperature .

 

Alex, did you ever do any subjective evaluation as to whether having that in circuit altered the SQ in any way?

[sandyk]

38 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, did you ever do any subjective evaluation as to whether having that in circuit altered the SQ in any way?

 I haven't noticed any difference, as the voltage monitoring area is high impedance, and I use heavy duty wiring to and from the speaker terminals, as well as the heavy duty relay used having very low contact resistance . (10A rated)

 As my Amplifier is fully D.C. coupled, it can prevent expensive damage ,as well as which the external PSU area has separate voltage regulation for both channels as well as mains fuse protection.

[fas42]

The advantage of having some external monitoring device, to the chain, is that it could both monitor what is going to the speakers, and the power going to each of the components - if the pattern of the current draw doesn't match what has historically been seen, and the current draw to the power amp doesn't correlate with the drive to the speakers - then the safety device can deduce that something has gone amiss - and trigger circuit breakers to everything.

[fas42]

Curious why you disagree with having such a style of safety device, Alex ...

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Curious why you disagree with having such a style of safety device, Alex ...

  Far too complex and may also degrade operation of individual devices due to the interconnecting for monitoring purposes introducing the likelihood of Earth loops, and very few things like this are completely non intrusive. 

 Some people appear to be in love with needless Software for Software's sake !  😋

[fas42]

26 minutes ago, sandyk said:

  Far too complex and may also degrade operation of individual devices due to the interconnecting for monitoring purposes introducing the likelihood of Earth loops, and very few things like this are completely non intrusive. 

 Some people appear to be in love with needless Software for Software's sake !  😋

 

All possible, of course - which is why it needs to be designed well. The point I'm making is that if people want to leave gear on 24/7 for best sound, but worry about the safety aspect, that there could be a good solution to take care of things. If people want the last degree of surety that the SQ can't be impacted, then simply make it in a form where it can be easily disconnected from monitoring points - and shut down completely, while indulging in serious listening, 🙂.

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

All possible, of course - which is why it needs to be designed well. The point I'm making is that if people want to leave gear on 24/7 for best sound, but worry about the safety aspect, that there could be a good solution to take care of things

Yes, they have things like that in Nursing Homes etc. They are called Automatic  Sprinkler Systems.😋

 People shouldn't be encouraged to do such things. Just purchase better designed gear in the first place instead.

[fas42]

55 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Yes, they have things like that in Nursing Homes etc. They are called Automatic  Sprinkler Systems.😋

 People shouldn't be encouraged to do such things. Just purchase better designed gear in the first place instead.

 

Right, just go into the store, and look for the "better designed gear!" sticker, plastered on the side ... easy, peasy, 😁.

[sandyk]

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Right, just go into the store, and look for the "better designed gear!" sticker, plastered on the side ... easy, peasy, 😁.

Why not just ask other members for feedback on the items you are interested in, or return items that fail to perform adequately  ?

[fas42]

49 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Why not just ask other members for feedback on the items you are interested in, or return items that fail to perform adequately  ?

 

So, members would have understanding of how well the safety features of the components they have bought were engineered - simply by buying and using them in their home ... ? 😜

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

So, members would have understanding of how well the safety features of the components they have bought were engineered - simply by buying and using them in their home ... ? 😜

 They would be able to provide information about long term reliability, and if they failed within the warranty period

[fas42]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 They would be able to provide information about long term reliability, and if they failed within the warranty period

 

Trouble is, that information doesn't directly relate to how well the safety areas have been engineered, in terms of how effective they are in some possibly dangerous failure mode - if one wants to be confident that the device can be left on 24/7, with minimal concerns, then some add-on system or device that is expressly designed for this function, and that is used by many, with reports of well "it saved the bacon!" available to confirm its effectiveness, would be more reassuring, 🙂.

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

Trouble is, that information doesn't directly relate to how well the safety areas have been engineered, in terms of how effective they are in some possibly dangerous failure mode - if one wants to be confident that the device can be left on 24/7, with minimal concerns, then some add-on system or device that is expressly designed for this function, and that is used by many, with reports of well "it saved the bacon!" available to confirm its effectiveness, would be more reassuring, 🙂.

Get real Frank !

 They already have to comply with Country regulations as to safety etc. 

What it comes down to is that leaving non essential electrical appliances fully operational 24/7 is a luxury we can no longer afford, and is NOT good for the environment . Gear left in Standby mode is not fully operational, just the remote control area normally. 

[Ralf Hutter]

18 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 They already have to comply with Country regulations as to safety etc. 

 

I'm not sure if it's related, but here in the US most electric gear is "UL Listed". That's Underwriters Labs. One thing I've always noticed during my 45 years of Audiophilia is that the boutique equipment that we use never has a "UL Listed" sticker on it. Does that make it potentially less safe than stuff with a UL Listed sticker on it?

[davide256]

Tube gear takes a while to stabilize, I leave anything with tubes permanently on, volume at minimum. Solid state usually stabilizes within 5-6 minutes, although big transformer amps sometimes want longer

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Tube gear takes a while to stabilize, I leave anything with tubes permanently on, volume at minimum. Solid state usually stabilizes within 5-6 minutes, although big transformer amps sometimes want longer

An interesting discussion at the link. The stress factor at switch on with vacuum tubes can be reduced by the use of a suitably rated thermistor in series with the mains transformer's primary winding , or a soft -start circuit as used in many large SS Power Amplifiers where a large amount of PS filter capacitance is used.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/is-it-a-ok-to-leave-tube-pre-amps-powede-up-24-7

[fas42]

19 hours ago, sandyk said:

Get real Frank !

 They already have to comply with Country regulations as to safety etc. 

What it comes down to is that leaving non essential electrical appliances fully operational 24/7 is a luxury we can no longer afford, and is NOT good for the environment . Gear left in Standby mode is not fully operational, just the remote control area normally. 

 

Ah, bureaucracy solves everything - yes, I forget about that ultimate guarantee that we're always safe, 🙃.

 

Regarding gear in Standby, I recently went inside our small bedroom TV because it took a long time to start - and found out that the power supply was always running, and sending all the voltages out to the rest of the circuitry ... so, unless you pull it from the wall I would say there is no assurance that things operate as you say.

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ah, bureaucracy solves everything - yes, I forget about that ultimate guarantee that we're always safe, 🙃.

 

Regarding gear in Standby, I recently went inside our small bedroom TV because it took a long time to start - and found out that the power supply was always running, and sending all the voltages out to the rest of the circuitry ... so, unless you pull it from the wall I would say there is no assurance that things operate as you say.

The  PSU has to be running to enable RC operation. Just because the PSU was sending voltages out to the rest of the circuitry does not mean that it was consuming any more power than needed to enable RC operation. Other devices in the design would have prevented any more than a minimal standby current.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

The  PSU has to be running to enable RC operation. Just because the PSU was sending voltages out to the rest of the circuitry does not mean that it was consuming any more power than needed to enable RC operation. Other devices in the design would have prevented any more than a minimal standby current.

 

It's not the power usage that may be of concern - if the power supply is fully functional, and sending voltages to all the various areas, then if there is a failure in some part it could cause currents sufficient to create a hazard - not enough to trigger fuses, etc, but excess heating of some area enough to dangerous. Which is the point of some external device with the smarts to detect this.

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It's not the power usage that may be of concern - if the power supply is fully functional, and sending voltages to all the various areas, then if there is a failure in some part it could cause currents sufficient to create a hazard - not enough to trigger fuses, etc, but excess heating of some area enough to dangerous. Which is the point of some external device with the smarts to detect this.

 Rubbish.

 A properly designed component will have adequate protection against such failures. Of course, if somebody decided to replace the manufacturers carefully selected fuse with a different type, then that is a different matter. Besides which, most dwellings these days have Earth leakage circuit breakers.

[PeterSt]

Hmm, I notice that an originally possibly interesting thread, was turned into a "you should buy better equipment next time".

Alex, although you could be correct, what in heaven's sake is the use of mentioning this again and again. Do you really seriously think that I - or anyone for that matter - would consider buying new gear for this reason ?

 

On 9/25/2020 at 7:43 AM, sandyk said:

Get real

 

OK ?

[PeterSt]

Back in the days we had the Denson CD. I still have it, I never use it any more, but I should. In the end Denson has a dedicated amplifier based on the same principles - randomize the electrons again. And this is not just a story, it really worked.

These days I apply other means, knowing a bit how to accomplish similar.