Thoughts on keeping it all on all the time vs using standby / off?

[992Sam]

So I was thinking the other day, there is something called the bathtub curve used in engineering parlance where something is likely to fail with in the first few hours (few being 2-several hundred) and then it will likely work perfectly for a very long time before it begins to fail..  

 

There is also a lot of science / and anecdote about burn in being important with audio equipment (And electronics in general)... I know with my DAC, the sound got better after about 200 hours of leaving it on.. Unsure about the Integrated Amp, or SA/CD transport yet as they're both pretty new..

 

That said, I also noticed they both go into standby mode automatically after sitting idle for a bit... which begs the question, is this for power/energy conservation reasons, or because it's better for the equipment to put it into standby when not in use?  I do believe most manufacturers don't recommend full power off between daily use.. right?

 

I'd love to get a good discussion going on whether to turn off or not and what metric determines when/if you do?

 

I'll start by saying that for now, I tend to use stand by when not in use, but because I'm debating whether to burn in my new pieces, maybe I will over ride and leave on for a few days? 

[firedog]

37 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

So I was thinking the other day, there is something called the bathtub curve used in engineering parlance where something is likely to fail with in the first few hours (few being 2-several hundred) and then it will likely work perfectly for a very long time before it begins to fail..  

 

There is also a lot of science / and anecdote about burn in being important with audio equipment (And electronics in general)... I know with my DAC, the sound got better after about 200 hours of leaving it on.. Unsure about the Integrated Amp, or SA/CD transport yet as they're both pretty new..

 

That said, I also noticed they both go into standby mode automatically after sitting idle for a bit... which begs the question, is this for power/energy conservation reasons, or because it's better for the equipment to put it into standby when not in use?  I do believe most manufacturers don't recommend full power off between daily use.. right?

 

I'd love to get a good discussion going on whether to turn off or not and what metric determines when/if you do?

 

I'll start by saying that for now, I tend to use stand by when not in use, but because I'm debating whether to burn in my new pieces, maybe I will over ride and leave on for a few days? 

The regulations in many countries require that many types of devices go into low energy mode after they are idle for a period of time.

[992Sam]

Yes, makes sense from an environmental standpoint, and from a cost saving standpoint, but is it good/necessary for the equipment to shut it off, or go into a low power mode, vs keeping it on for extended periods?

[FIndingit]

We are beginning to see equipment which have linear and switching power supplies inside, the latter used only for standby power. Denafrips does that. 

[cjf]

My 2cents,

 

I use to leave all my gear on all the time 24/7 and do believe (strongly) that there is a difference in sound (for the worse) between a piece of kit turned on Cold vs one that's been running for at least a few hours (Warmed-Up).

 

But with that said, I no longer do it. I hit the power button when I'm done with it for the day.

 

What changed my mind?

 

Long story short, something happened that scared the shit out of me. A piece of gear I owned "failed" in the worse kind of way but luckily I was home when it happened. I'm pretty sure if I was not home when it happened I might not of had a house to walk into when I returned. In short, a loud crack some smoke and a very strong odor of burnt electronics that didn't subside until the unit was fully unplugged from the wall outlet. Not good!

 

So because of this incident I've changed my philosophy. The instant gratification of having ideal sound at all times is not worth the risk of a piece of kit failing in the same catastrophic way and me not being home if/when it does. I can wait an hour for ideal sound 🙂

 

 

[992Sam]

@cjf

 

wow, that's a crazy story indeed...  I guess it's a comfort zone issue.   I was just reading the owners manual for my PS Audio PerfectWave DAC and it actually says that if you turn it off completely from the rear power switch, you need to turn it on 3 hours prior to intended use to get the best sound.  Seems like some brands just don't encourage cold shut downs. 

[cjf]

I understand its probably a bit extreme to do it that way considering all the other "things" that remain plugged in and running all day which could potentially fail in the same way that are not stereo system related but...

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, cjf said:

My 2cents,

 

I use to leave all my gear on all the time 24/7 and do believe (strongly) that there is a difference in sound (for the worse) between a piece of kit turned on Cold vs one that's been running for at least a few hours (Warmed-Up).

 

But with that said, I no longer do it. I hit the power button when I'm done with it for the day.

 

What changed my mind?

 

Long story short, something happened that scared the shit out of me. A piece of gear I owned "failed" in the worse kind of way but luckily I was home when it happened. I'm pretty sure if I was not home when it happened I might not of had a house to walk into when I returned. In short, a loud crack some smoke and a very strong odor of burnt electronics that didn't subside until the unit was fully unplugged from the wall outlet. Not good!

 

So because of this incident I've changed my philosophy. The instant gratification of having ideal sound at all times is not worth the risk of a piece of kit failing in the same catastrophic way and me not being home if/when it does. I can wait an hour for ideal sound 🙂

 

 

The same happened to me on one occasion. Most gear shouldn't need more than switching on, then making yourself a cuppa and a snack before sitting down and relaxing.

 Some devices such as Power Amplifiers ,especially Vacuum Tube types, and some Class A Solid State types may take much longer, but in that case they are poorly designed and should reach a thermal equilibrium much sooner .

[GregWormald]

My pre-amp stays on all the time unless I pull the plug. The "off" switch just turns off the inputs. The manufacturer says it can take up to 6 hours from cold for the components to stabilise.

 

The amps in the speakers go to standby after a brief interval of no input. They also have to be unplugged for a hard off. The inbuilt computer monitors for any fault condition.

 

The DAC has a switch that is "off" when not in use.

 

The power supply for the t/t has an off switch that stops the t/t but the supply itself must be unplugged for a hard off.

 

The TV has a manual stand-by and must be unplugged for a hard off.

[sandyk]

57 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

My pre-amp stays on all the time unless I pull the plug. The "off" switch just turns off the inputs. The manufacturer says it can take up to 6 hours from cold for the components to stabilise.

 That is a good example of poor design. The main reason for this is normally due to the Differential Input pair transistors taking quite a while to reach thermal equilibrium. In  my DIY Class A Preamp

(and Class A  P.A.) I use the temperature coefficient of a Silicon Diode for compensation of around 2mV per degree C.  It reaches optimum performance within 5 minutes or so in all seasons. The output devices have more than enough Bias Current at start up to not be a noticeable problem.

I am not overly concerned about my Samsung "LED" TV being in Standby mode

[Allan F]

I leave my preamp and DAC on all the time. However, I turn my power amplifier off when I retire for the night. It's solid state and it seems to reach its full potential after being on for an hour or less. As I run my TV audio through my stereo system and generally watch news programs after getting up in the morning, it's fully warmed up by the time I listen to music.

[sandyk]

29 minutes ago, Allan F said:

As I run my TV audio through my stereo system and generally watch news programs after getting up in the morning,

Allan

I also watch TV through my stereo system, but  as my Preamp has similar topology to my Class A power amplifier, it's at optimum within 5 minutes or so. I have never noticed my main DAC needing a longer warm up than that, but the DAC that I use with my PC does have a noticeable improvement after about 10 minutes where it appears to "lock in" to a higher order of performance. It's especially noticeable with 24/96 material.

It uses a TCXO . ( Temperature Controlled Xtal Oscillator)

 

Alex

[Allan F]

21 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Allan

I also watch TV through my stereo system, but  as my Preamp has similar topology to my Class A power amplifier, it's at optimum within 5 minutes or so. I have never noticed my main DAC needing a longer warm up than that, but the DAC that I use with my PC does have a noticeable improvement after about 10 minutes where it appears to "lock in" to a higher order of performance. It's especially noticeable with 24/96 material.

It uses a TCXO . ( Temperature Controlled Xtal Oscillator)

 

Alex

 

Alex

There are those who recommend leaving a DAC on all the time for peak performance. If I recall correctly, John Swenson not only recommends leaving a DAC on all the time, but also running music through it all the time even though not listening to it.

[992Sam]

5 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Alex

There are those who recommend leaving a DAC on all the time for peak performance. If I recall correctly, John Swenson not only recommends leaving a DAC on all the time, but also running music through it all the time even when not listening.

 

in the manual for the PS Audio PerfectWave DS DAC it says to have it on for 3 hours prior to use for optimal sound....  I also know it sounds MUCH better after about a 300-400 hours burn in... I think solid state electronics just work better once they've had some time for the electrons to do their magic on the metals..

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

 

There are those who recommend leaving a DAC on all the time for peak performance. If I recall correctly, John Swenson not only recommends leaving a DAC on all the time, but also running music through it all the time as well.

Allan

 It will depend on the actual design of the DAC. My main Silicon Chip magazine designed DAC, for example, only uses the Xtal Oscillator as a reference, not the actual timing.

 

Alex

[Allan F]

6 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

in the manual for the PS Audio PerfectWave DS DAC it says to have it on for 3 hours prior to use for optimal sound

 

If you have to turn it on three hours ahead of time for optimal sound, IMO you might as well leave it on all the time so it's always ready at that peak level.

[992Sam]

1 minute ago, Allan F said:

 

If you have to turn it on three hours ahead of time for optimal sound, you might as well leave it on all the time so it's always ready at that peak level.

 

which is why I posted this thread... but PS Audio already told me to leave it on, no worries... only uses 30w max anyway.

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 I also know it sounds MUCH better after about a 300-400 hours burn in.

 

 That is normally due the large value main filter capacitors fully forming , with some Audiophile Brand names taking this long. Don't forget also, that for example, transistors HFE (gain) increases a little with temperature increases.

If a DAC manufacturer spent more money on using a Xtal Oven as they do in quite a bit of Communication gear, this time could be markedly decreased in many cases .

[992Sam]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 That is normally due the large value main filter capacitors fully forming , with some Audiophile Brand names taking this long. Don't forget also, that for example, transistors HFE (gain) increases a little with temperature increases.

If a DAC manufacturer spent more money on using a Xtal Oven as they do in quite a bit of Communication gear, this time could be markedly decreased in many cases .

 

yes, my Icom 9500 has such technology... but then it's $13000 dedicated receiver. 

[Allan F]

 

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

That is normally due the large value main filter capacitors fully forming , with some Audiophile Brand names taking this long.

 

A few years ago, after listening to my new power amplifier for over 150 hours, I was getting quite concerned about the looseness of the bass, and I contacted the manufacturer. Dan Wright of ModWright promptly replied, advising that their proprietary capacitors require about 400 hours of burn-in to reach stable optimization. Sure enough, just around the 400 hour mark, my concern completely disappeared as the bass was noticeably tighter, accompanied by improved definition.

[sandyk]

52 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 

yes, my Icom 9500 has such technology... but then it's $13000 dedicated receiver. 

If you had room inside the DAC and the knowledge to do so, you could probably warm up the interior more quickly using a PW5 resistor in the proper area, with current through it varied/ switched off again when a certain temperature was reached.

It wouldn't cost much to do that. In fact, myself and a friend did that several years ago.  IIRC, I used a LM3911 Temperature controlled I.C. 

I also used similar in a TV standards converter to control a fan to markedly reduce " patterning" with temperature drift.

[Allan F]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

If you had room inside the DAC and the knowledge to do so, you could probably warm up the interior more quickly using a PW5 resistor in the proper area, with current through it varied/ switched off again when a certain temperature was reached.

 

That makes sense for DIY equipment if you know what you are doing. However, one should be wary of such modifications to brand name gear as they are very likely to void the warranty.

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

That makes sense for DIY equipment if you know what you are doing. However, such modifications are likely to void the warranty of any brand name gear.

 Most well designed gear can outlive the warranty by 20 or more years.

Of course , you normally wouldn't do any such modifications until it was out of warranty .

[fas42]

When I was brash about things, 30 years ago, I left it all on 24/7 - mainly because it all needed about 3 days of being powered up to get the playback into the "good zone"; if the parts were allowed to go cold for a couple of days, then it took that same, considerable stretch of time to get the quality back again. Which was a bit of waste of money with the power amp; it ran pretty hot, just the massive transformer alone had enough internal losses to be at the point of an ouch! sensation when touched, 😉.

 

The gear is getting better, IME - by design, or as a side effect of progress elsewhere, a highly acceptable SQ should be there at switch-on from cold these days.

 

Having highly effective, extremely fast power cut-off if something goes wrong is obviously something that should be engineered into the rig. But lots of components don't have that ... answer is to add that externally, but it would have to be very smart, and very well sorted out so that it doesn't impact the SQ - the ideal is to add excellent mains conditioning, as part of that safety package.

[Allan F]

21 hours ago, fas42 said:

Having highly effective, extremely fast power cut-off if something goes wrong is obviously something that should be engineered into the rig.

 

Most well designed equipment today has protection circuitry to accomplish this.