Cheap turnkey Linux server software for networks?

[Mike Rubin]

I have been using Roon ROCK on a NUC 10 i7 to stream over my network from a NAS to a trio of Sonore rendus.  I upsample everything to DSD256 and Roon sounds great.  I love ROCK's simplicity and Roon's SQ, but that's it.  I hate everything else about Roon, starting with the vaunted "meticulously-curated metadata."  (Most of my music is jazz and classical, much of it from import labels or from OOP sources, and a lot of the classical has edited metadata because I have tried to manage it within my preferred specification, so Roon has failed to identify more than 50% of my collection and much of the rest has no useful information added.  The interface also is not to my taste, generally.)

 

I thus want to move on, especially if I can retain the functionality and simplicity that I now have with ROCK.  I don't know my way around Linux, but I can follow instructions and was able to tweak Linux-based servers from Olive and SoTM for years, so I am not hopeless in that respect.  I think Linux makes sense for this application because it would be dedicated just to serving music and wouldn't need to juggle processes in Windows that a server doesn't use.

 

What I am looking for is something that autoinstalls, can be run headlessly via web browser or remote access, has a GUI or works with apps that provide them, streams via UPnP/DLNA or uses LMS, and can stream DSD natively.  Ideally, it would also upsample everything to DSD256 over the network.  The NUC won't be connected to any DAC by USB, so solutions dependent on WASAPI or ASIO drivers aren't useful to me.  Finally, I want to land this package for less than the $120 a year that Roon charges me.

 

I know I am asking a lot here and, frankly, I doubt that there's a product that checks all these boxes, but AS is the place to ask if there is.  Thanks for any information you can provide.

[dashandblast]

Euphony Stylus?

[Mike Rubin]

6 hours ago, dashandblast said:

Euphony Stylus?

Doesn't look like it.  Their web page refers only to USB playback, not streaming capability.  Plus, it's almost $300, so it's not in my price range. 

[stefano_mbp]

Just a suggestion .... why not give a try to Minimserver/MinimStreamer?

You could install it on your Synology nas very easily and configure it (thanks to MinimStreamer) to upsample everything to the maximum PCM rate your dacs can accept. Unfortunately MinimStreamer cannot upsample to DSD but you could stream native DSD tracks anyway.
Beside Minimserver you could install Bubbleupnpserver on the same nas.

This will let you to use Lumin app as control point and stream to your Rendu renderers with MPD/DLNA enabled. Lumin app integrates with Minimserver wonderfully.
Bubbleupnpserver is needed to create OpenHome compatible devices of your Rendu devices, Lumin app needs OpenHome devices to work correctly.
With your music files well tagged this solution should work very well.
If your nas were not powerful enough you could install Ubuntu on your Nuc and then install there Minimserver/MinimStreamer with Bubbleupnpserver.

I use this last configuration (but with a NUC8i3) and I can stream to my SOtM sms200 Neo and I’m very satisfied 

[cat6man]

22 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I have been using Roon ROCK on a NUC 10 i7 to stream over my network from a NAS to a trio of Sonore rendus.  I upsample everything to DSD256 and Roon sounds great.  I love ROCK's simplicity and Roon's SQ, but that's it.  I hate everything else about Roon, starting with the vaunted "meticulously-curated metadata."  (Most of my music is jazz and classical, much of it from import labels or from OOP sources, and a lot of the classical has edited metadata because I have tried to manage it within my preferred specification, so Roon has failed to identify more than 50% of my collection and much of the rest has no useful information added.  The interface also is not to my taste, generally.)

 

I thus want to move on, especially if I can retain the functionality and simplicity that I now have with ROCK.  I don't know my way around Linux, but I can follow instructions and was able to tweak Linux-based servers from Olive and SoTM for years, so I am not hopeless in that respect.  I think Linux makes sense for this application because it would be dedicated just to serving music and wouldn't need to juggle processes in Windows that a server doesn't use.

 

What I am looking for is something that autoinstalls, can be run headlessly via web browser or remote access, has a GUI or works with apps that provide them, streams via UPnP/DLNA or uses LMS, and can stream DSD natively.  Ideally, it would also upsample everything to DSD256 over the network.  The NUC won't be connected to any DAC by USB, so solutions dependent on WASAPI or ASIO drivers aren't useful to me.  Finally, I want to land this package for less than the $120 a year that Roon charges me.

 

I know I am asking a lot here and, frankly, I doubt that there's a product that checks all these boxes, but AS is the place to ask if there is.  Thanks for any information you can provide.

 

if you want the dsd upsampling, you want HQPlayer.

since you're streaming to a signature rendu, it can be set in NAA mode for HQP.

 

for the server end, you can run HQPlayer Desktop on linux (cost=HQP)

alternatively, you can run hqplayer-embedded inside of audio-linux, which would let you run in ramroot

which i (and many others) find improves the SQ (cost=AL+HQP)

up the cost scale is HQP-embedded with Euphony (cost=Eup+HQP) but running HQP removes the input buffering option that is part of what makes Euphony sound so nice.

 

if it must be free, i think you'll have to skip the upsampling to dsd.

then you can use LMS+squeezelite (and Squeezer for control on mobile/tablet) or one of the many other music servers available for free.

 

 

[antonellocaroli]

1 hour ago, cat6man said:

if it must be free, i think you'll have to skip the upsampling to dsd.

then you can use LMS+squeezelite (and Squeezer for control on mobile/tablet) or one of the many other music servers available for free.

why?

with lms+squeezelite you can do very well umpsampling in dsd or pcm>DSD (also from streaming services, tidal and qobuz)...just install the excellent C-3PO plugin, if you want you can also make ambient correction...

[Mike Rubin]

Thanks, gents.  This is useful.  HQP

2 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Just a suggestion .... why not give a try to Minimserver/MinimStreamer?

You could install it on your Synology nas very easily and configure it (thanks to MinimStreamer) to upsample everything to the maximum PCM rate your dacs can accept. Unfortunately MinimStreamer cannot upsample to DSD but you could stream native DSD tracks anyway.
Beside Minimserver you could install Bubbleupnpserver on the same nas.

This will let you to use Lumin app as control point and stream to your Rendu renderers with MPD/DLNA enabled. Lumin app integrates with Minimserver wonderfully.
Bubbleupnpserver is needed to create OpenHome compatible devices of your Rendu devices, Lumin app needs OpenHome devices to work correctly.
With your music files well tagged this solution should work very well.
If your nas were not powerful enough you could install Ubuntu on your Nuc and then install there Minimserver/MinimStreamer with Bubbleupnpserver.

I use this last configuration (but with a NUC8i3) and I can stream to my SOtM sms200 Neo and I’m very satisfied 

I use both, with the Bubble and Lumin apps.  Neither sounds as good to me as does Roon, Audirvana, or JRiver, but the price definitely is right.  These might be the solution if I can’t find something that checks all the boxes.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, cat6man said:

 

if you want the dsd upsampling, you want HQPlayer.

since you're streaming to a signature rendu, it can be set in NAA mode for HQP.

 

for the server end, you can run HQPlayer Desktop on linux (cost=HQP)

alternatively, you can run hqplayer-embedded inside of audio-linux, which would let you run in ramroot

which i (and many others) find improves the SQ (cost=AL+HQP)

up the cost scale is HQP-embedded with Euphony (cost=Eup+HQP) but running HQP removes the input buffering option that is part of what makes Euphony sound so nice.

 

if it must be free, i think you'll have to skip the upsampling to dsd.

then you can use LMS+squeezelite (and Squeezer for control on mobile/tablet) or one of the many other music servers available for free.

 

 

HQPlayer is a bit beyond the original price model and adding it to one of the others makes it prohibitive.

 

Question, though:  I suspect it would be easier for me to manage complicated software within Windows 10, as I have considerable experience with it.  Is there a substantial drop in SQ from Linux HQP to W10 HQP, do you know?

[Mike Rubin]

8 minutes ago, antonellocaroli said:

why?

with lms+squeezelite you can do very well umpsempling in dsd or pcm>DSD...just install the excellent C-3PO plugin, if you want you can also make ambient correction...

I didn’t realize this.  I can run LMS off my NAS right now.  It just never occurred to me to upsample with it.  My NAS is decent (Synology DS218+) but it doesn’t have the horsepower of the NUC that I now use to upsample, let alone the Dell desktop that I used before assembling an audio-only server.  I will give this a try and hope the NAS fans are up to the task!

[antonellocaroli]

9 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I didn’t realize this.  I can run LMS off my NAS right now.  It just never occurred to me to upsample with it.  My NAS is decent (Synology DS218+) but it doesn’t have the horsepower of the NUC that I now use to upsample, let alone the Dell desktop that I used before assembling an audio-only server.  I will give this a try and hope the NAS fans are up to the task!

you have to keep in mind that to do upsampling DSD you need the sox-dsd version, which you should compile and replace in LMS

 

https://github.com/mansr/sox

 

https://audiodigitale.eu/?p=25

[Mike Rubin]

16 minutes ago, antonellocaroli said:

you have to keep in mind that to do upsampling DSD you need the sox-dsd version, which you should compile and replace in LMS

 

https://github.com/mansr/sox

 

https://audiodigitale.eu/?p=25

Thanks.  Recompiling code is way beyond my expertise.
 

I haven’t tried running it yet, since I installed it remotely and am in the middle of something else, but I was able to set up C-3PO for upsampling from NAS to DSD on a microRendu.  I will see if that actually works in a few hours.

[jcn3]

27 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I didn’t realize this.  I can run LMS off my NAS right now.  It just never occurred to me to upsample with it.  My NAS is decent (Synology DS218+) but it doesn’t have the horsepower of the NUC that I now use to upsample, let alone the Dell desktop that I used before assembling an audio-only server.  I will give this a try and hope the NAS fans are up to the task!

 

i doubt your nas could upsample to dsd.  dsd upsampling is very very processor intensive -- really need at least an i7 processor.

[Mike Rubin]

11 minutes ago, jcn3 said:

 

i doubt your nas could upsample to dsd.  dsd upsampling is very very processor intensive -- really need at least an i7 processor.

Agree completely, yet there were lots of folks at the Roon forum who insisted they were doing just fine with i3 NUC’s and that even an i5 would be overkill.  
 

I decided to assemble a NUC because DSD upsampling regularly was running my desktop current 2020 gen i7 into the low 90c’s when oversampling. When the NUC used Windows, it too ran in that temps range when oversampling, so I switched to ROCK for lower overhead. Because ROCK can’t cough up a temperature reading, I am just taking it on faith that I am not cooking the cpu now.  I guess an i7 is enough horsepower for full-time DSD, but only if you have decent cooling in your case.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, jcn3 said:

 

i doubt your nas could upsample to dsd.  dsd upsampling is very very processor intensive -- really need at least an i7 processor.

You are correct.  Running LMS now with C-3PO upsampling to DSD just produces noise.  Uninstalling the plug-in now. 

[Miska]

HQPlayer OS doesn't need any installation, you can boot it up from USB memory stick or (micro)SD card. And it works as UPnP Renderer. Network outputs to NAA's naturally.

 

Quote

Question, though:  I suspect it would be easier for me to manage complicated software within Windows 10, as I have considerable experience with it.  Is there a substantial drop in SQ from Linux HQP to W10 HQP, do you know?

 

Mostly functional difference HQPlayer Embedded vs HQPlayer Desktop. No UPnP support and no web interface.

 

[Mike Rubin]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

Mostly functional difference HQPlayer Embedded vs HQPlayer Desktop. No UPnP support and no web interface.

 

Thank you, Miska.  Is the embedded version the one that lacks UPnP support?  Does it use other network protocols instead or is it limited to local USB playback?

 

Also, if I were to install HQP on a Linux or Windows 10 NUC, I see that I can control it using a phone or tablet app.  Can I also control it from my Windows 10 desktop computer when I am sitting there?

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thank you, Miska.  Is the embedded version the one that lacks UPnP support?  Does it use other network protocols instead or is it limited to local USB playback?

 

No, Embedded version is the only one that has UPnP support. Note that it is Renderer support, so output is always to built-in / USB / Firewire / NAA / RAVENNA. (HQPlayer Embedded is designed for a "streamer firmware" and HQPlayer OS is a "streamer firmware")

 

Both Embedded and Desktop support network outputs to NAA and RAVENNA.

 

5 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Also, if I were to install HQP on a Linux or Windows 10 NUC, I see that I can control it using a phone or tablet app.  Can I also control it from my Windows 10 desktop computer when I am sitting there?

 

Yes, you can install HQPlayer Client on another Windows, Linux or macOS computer and use it to control HQPlayer Embedded or Desktop instances elsewhere on the network. HQPDcontrol app can be used on iOS and Android devices to do similar controls.

 

[Mike Rubin]

Thank you, Miska, but I got lost in that explanation.  I apologize for the weakness of my networking knowledge.

 

What I want to do is to stream upsampled (to DSD256) music stored on a NAS to each of three different Sonore Rendus (but only one at a time).
 

I presently can use (1) Roon (from the NUC that now has ROCK); (2) JRiver (from my Windows 10 desktop computer) via DLNA (but without DSD upsampling); or (3) LMS on my NAS.  
 

After my Roon subscription ends, I won’t need ROCK.  When I delete ROCK, I can run Windows 10 on that NUC or, as my original post says, might switch to Linux if I can do so painlessly.

 

I control playback to two of the Rendus with phone or tablet apps and to one Rendu with applications on the Windows 10 general use computer.

 

Which version of HQP would make the most sense in this use case?

[Miska]

6 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thank you, Miska, but I got lost in that explanation.  I apologize for the weakness of my networking knowledge.

 

What I want to do is to stream upsampled (to DSD256) music stored on a NAS to each of three different Sonore Rendus (but only one at a time).
 

I presently can use (1) Roon (from the NUC that now has ROCK); (2) JRiver (from my Windows 10 desktop computer) via DLNA (but without DSD upsampling); or (3) LMS on my NAS.  

 

Rendu supports HQPlayer's NAA endpoint protocol, so HQPlayer certainly works in your setup. You just need to switch/enable Rendu's HQPlayer NAA mode.

 

7 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

After my Roon subscription ends, I won’t need ROCK.  When I delete ROCK, I can run Windows 10 on that NUC or, as my original post says, might switch to Linux if I can do so painlessly.

 

This is where HQPlayer OS becomes handy, because you can boot in on the NUC either from USB memory stick or from microSD card and you don't need to install anything ever. You can leave something else on the NUC's internal storage.

 

HQPlayer OS has option to mount NAS storage, so the content side is handled and it can output to a Rendu.

 

7 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I control playback to two of the Rendus with phone or tablet apps and to one Rendu with applications on the Windows 10 general use computer.

 

In this case you would control HQPlayer running on the NUC, with either HQPDcontrol or HQPlayer Client (just like NAA, no separate license needed, HQPlayer license covers N number of NAA's / Client's).

 

Through UPnP, you also have option to stream Tidal and such by using apps like mConnect Player.

 

7 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Which version of HQP would make the most sense in this use case?

 

HQPlayer Embedded, and HQPlayer OS flavor of it in particular.

 

[Mike Rubin]

Thank you.  This is helpful. 

[bluesman]

I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen a suggestion that you install Ubuntu Studio or other Linux of your choice on your i7 NUC and run JRiver Media Center on that.  I run JRMC on multiple Linux boxes - AMD and Intel powered PCs, Raspberry Pis, an i3 NUC, an Asus Chromebox stripped of Chrome & running Ubuntu 20, etc.  It’s excellent and I’m pretty sure it checks your boxes.  If your NUC isn’t cooled, you should consider a good passive cooling case or even fan cooling, as you prefer.  Check your temps now and you may be surprised at what you find, especially if you’re asking a lot of your CPU.

 

I control mine from iOS and Android devices (even my old Samsung Fascinate!) using JRemote on some and the JR web GUI in a browser on others.  The JR Linux license is inexpensive, or you could buy a master license and run it on Win boxes too.

[bluesman]

PS:  You might consider using Foobar2000 on Wine / Linux (or on its native Windows, if that's what you run now on the NUC) on your NUC.  It'll do everything you want, if I remember correctly - including upsampling to DSD. There are so many great plug-ins for it now that you can do almost anything you can imagine. I still use it on one older box, and it still works fine.  And it sounds fine too, even though many will undoubtedly disagree with me.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

I may have missed it, but I haven’t seen a suggestion that you install Ubuntu Studio or other Linux of your choice on your i7 NUC and run JRiver Media Center on that.  I run JRMC on multiple Linux boxes - AMD and Intel powered PCs, Raspberry Pis, an i3 NUC, an Asus Chromebox stripped of Chrome & running Ubuntu 20, etc.  It’s excellent and I’m pretty sure it checks your boxes.  If your NUC isn’t cooled, you should consider a good passive cooling case or even fan cooling, as you prefer.  Check your temps now and you may be surprised at what you find, especially if you’re asking a lot of your CPU.

 

I control mine from iOS and Android devices (even my old Samsung Fascinate!) using JRemote on some and the JR web GUI in a browser on others.  The JR Linux license is inexpensive, or you could buy a master license and run it on Win boxes too.

Thanks, bluesman.

 

JRiver, despite its foibles, is my player of choice when I can use it efficiently.  I still use it to manage metadata.  Unfortunately, it can't upsample to DSD over the network.  (It did a great job of that when connected to USB, but that functionality isn't there for DLNA.)  It also won't let two clients share a single library, so, after I edit on the Windows machine and save the library, I would have to remote into the NUC and restore the latest version there. Pain in the ass.

 

I indeed am worried about heat.  Unfortunately, the fanless cases for NUC 10 either address noise, not heat (Turang fx), or terrify me (HD Plex).  When it was running Windows before ROCK, the NUC would sit in the 50c's and 60c's, but spike to the 90c's.  I can't measure cpu temperature on a ROCK appliance, but I gather it should be a little cooler because it no longer has to work in Windows processes alongside the oversampling.  Likely still too hot.

 

Maybe I should just forget about the oversampling. It makes my DAC'S happy, but not my computers. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

PS:  You might consider using Foobar2000 on Wine / Linux (or on its native Windows, if that's what you run now on the NUC) on your NUC.  It'll do everything you want, if I remember correctly - including upsampling to DSD. There are so many great plug-ins for it now that you can do almost anything you can imagine. I still use it on one older box, and it still works fine.  And it sounds fine too, even though many will undoubtedly disagree with me.

I use Foobar if I have to split .cue files, but, otherwise, I always have felt that JRiver sounded enough better to justify the license fee.

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

JRiver, despite its foibles, is my player of choice when I can use it efficiently.  I still use it to manage metadata.  Unfortunately, it can't upsample to DSD over the network

Maybe I don't understand what you want to do, but I'm 99% certain that JRiver will output files to networked DLNA devices upsampled to DSD.  You can set your output format to either native DSD or to DoP, each at multiple resolutions, in the DSP Studio window.  You have to run Bubble or a similar UPnP server with it, but I assume you're already doing that or your  DLNA / UPnP device(s) wouldn't show up as JR zones.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

I always have felt that JRiver sounded enough better to justify the license fee.

To be honest, I don't hear any consistent difference between Foo2k and JRiver on any of my systems.  I've bought JRMC licenses for at least the last half a dozen versions now, and I definitely think all the features are worth the cost, e.g. library management, presentation, flexibility etc.  I've had a master license since they came out and run it on several Linux boxes, Raspberry Pis etc in addition to our communal PC.  I just bought the 27 upgrade and look forward to its availability.

 

I've also had Roon for about 2 years, and it's also excellent.  I prefer the GUI and the additional cover / liner art, notes, and info over JRiver - so I use Roon for much of my daily listening.  But I could live very happily with Roon, JRiver, or Foobar if I had to have only one. Picking that one would not be an easy chore.  If I had to judge, I'd say that any minor differences I hear from time to time favor Roon over JRMC and Foobar.  But side by side in daily use, I can't honestly say that I clearly prefer one over the others for general sound quality.