Sonore opticalRendu

[vortecjr]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

For us LPS-1 and LPS1.2 users. 

 

Why not add a Vbus Power interface in next model 😀 ?

Just use the LPS-1 to power the opticalModule:) 

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, MagnusH said:

 

Rob Watts seems to like toslink best for his DACs (and so do I btw, but for RME ADI-2 DAC), have you compared it to toslink?

Toslink is for CD players. I know he has a mega money CD player and/or upsampling device, but we can do all that in the server for much less money with playback completely isolated over an optical network. The computer can even be one you already own saving you even more money. For a complete solution with hi-resolution and DSD support USB is really your best bet. 

[vortecjr]

9 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

I don't agree with that, toslink in combination with battery power means 100% isolation from mains grid and anything else, so if the DAC can handle the introduced jitter good enough it is hard to beat. Yes, USB has higher bandwidth, but even when I used USB I never bothered with upsampling to more than 192 anyway.

 

And finally, toslink is source independent, provided the DAC can reclock the jitter, which means cheaper and more minimalistic system.

A streamer/transport like OpticalRendu means you don't need a "music player" near your HiFi, so it can be more practical.

 

But this is all theory, what I asked is how the SQ from the OpticalRendu compares to toslink for a DAC like the Qutest.

I know different stokes for different folks...it's all good. 

[vortecjr]

7 minutes ago, incus said:

That's it for now... take it all this with the grain of salt that is my enthusiasm and inability not to comment on what I am hearing!

Part of the issue is that you are switching back and forth...just sit back and enjoy it:) 

[vortecjr]

5 minutes ago, incus said:

Ah but I enjoy the switching! Not every day a kickass new piece of gear makes into my system. New dog in the play yard!

If you like testing things...I may put you on the power supply beta testing group. 

 

What power supplies are you using again? You said you had Vinnie's power supply...which one? The SOtM is a switching supply right?

[vortecjr]

10 hours ago, cat6man said:

after a tour of the northeast US, the USPS found my house after all...............powered up with lps-1.2, added my optical connection, configured and had it running in 15 minutes....................letting it warm up now

 

will connect to DAC after dinner and will have to see if HQPLAYER settings.xml needs to be changed

 

NAS==>hqplayerd(nuc running ubuntu, bionic beaver)==>cat6==>24 port 1G switch==>6 port 10G switch==>optical==>opticalRendu(naa mode)==>usb into TotalDAC reclocker==>aes/ebu into TotalDAC DAC

That is great news...enjoy!

[vortecjr]

15 minutes ago, iLguapo said:

Anybody using a CIAaudio ps ? Any reason why this unit wouldn’t work out really well?

The CIA Audio power supply should work fine.  

[vortecjr]

FYI

 

Im pulling the plug on recommending the LPS-1/LPS1.2 for use with the opticalRendu. 

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, lumos said:

I suspect that a large proportion of oRendu customers will already have an Uptone supply powering something else. My view would be to try ones Uptone LPS with ones own oRendu and if it works use it and if necessary purchase a second to backfill where you took it from. If it doesn't work then buy a different supply. I love the performance, form factor and customer support from Uptone and I have never really thought about going elsewhere.

I have customers stating, "LPS-1.2 got super hot and then the opticalRendu started cycling on and off." The fact that a lot of people have them doesn't make them anymore appropriate to use. The recommendation going forward can only be to get a power supply that works and not to use an LPS-1/LPS1.2.   

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

Jesus. I think you’re over reacting.

So far only one person actually have publicly said he has a problem. 

 

(I’m not following the official recommendation, so my issues may not count 😀 )

 

Actually, this particular case can be traced back to that unit only. 

The recommendation against using the LPS-1/LPS-1.2 with an opticalRendu is final. 

[vortecjr]

16 hours ago, incus said:

Having replaced my SOtM smS-200 Ultra with the optical Rendu going into my M-Scaler and Hugo TT2, I will say that the M-Scaler/TT2 combo imparts a large degree of the final sonic flavor in my system - I am finding with that combo that the upstream renderer still matters, of course, but perhaps less than before I had that combo... my point is, you already have a VERY revealing set-up, not sure the oRendu will provide the kind of immediate clarity upgrade being discussed here...

But it is exactly what he is reporting....more clarity. Others are reporting similar or related things like better instrument separation, etc. We also have others in this forum reporting improvements with that combination while making changes to their upstream renderers. The only difference is that they are reporting that changing a strand of copper two rooms away makes a huge difference:) 

 

Finally, we are not trying to impart any kind of "flavor". The goal is to present the content without "flavor". Adding "flavor" is for DACs, amps, speakers and apparently scalers.  

[vortecjr]

6 hours ago, incus said:

Sorry let me try to rephrase what I meant to say. I was simply stating that with the HMS/TT2 combo I personally noticed the renderer making a bit less of a difference than it did with the Holo Spring II/Violectric combo I used to have. I was referring merely to that fact. Something to do with the "sound" of that combo and the way it buffers/isolates/reclocks having a bigger "say" in the final sound  (I did not mean to imply "flavor" as some sort of additive merely as in "sonic characteristic.")  I had an ultraRendu for a while but not anymore so I cannot comment on the upgrade in sound from the ultra to the optical. I did not mean to imply that I was in a position to make that comparison. Here's what I will say: my oRendu arrived last Thursday and I have been playing it more or less nonstop and it now sounds so good that it is officially replacing my sMS-200Ultra SE as the renderer in my main headphone-listening rig. It is truly an outstanding device and this is no small achievement as I have been upgrading and tweaking the renderer in that rig for many years... oRendu is the new king.

No apologies needed and thank you for the clarification...enjoy!

[vortecjr]

I have been reading some of the posts above and have some clarifications:

 

1. In regards to the Uptone LPS-1 power supply it was not recommended for use with the opticalRendu. In fact, it is not recommended on any of the Rendu product pages.

2. In regards to the Uptone LPS-1.2 power supply it was recommended for use with the opticalRendu up until a few days ago. It is still recommended for use with our other products.

[vortecjr]

15 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

 

I have no problem with you not recommending John Swenson Ultracap power supplies. After all you are selling your own power supplies 😀

 

Adding a smilly face doesn't make that comment any more appropriate. I have a commitment to my customers to make sure they have the best possible experience with our gear even if that means not recommending a product that John/Alex are in evolved in. I have always been more than generous with recommending power supplies from various companies. Finally, we have always had our own power supply dating back to the music server days because sometimes you just need to take the bull the horns. 

[vortecjr]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Of course that depends on how much money you want to spend. The best sound will be from an opticalRendu and opticalModule. Plug the opticalModule into the switch with a short Ethernet cable, plug your existing optical cable into the opticalModule and the other end of the fiber cable into the opticalRendu.

 

If you don't want to spend that much the least expensive upgrade is an opticalModule in place of the existing FMC. There are various options with ultraRendus with intermediate cost.

 

An opticalRendu connected to the existing fiber cable, without the opticalModule at the switch end, is going to sound considerably better than the microRendu with the opticalModule feeding it. I still think it will sound better than an opticalModule feeding an ultraRendu, but the best is the opticalModule feeding the opticalRendu.

 

Lots of ways you can mix and match the parts.

 

John S.

Thanks for chiming in John.

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, Foggie said:

So in a scenario with a managed switch that has fiber built in - how does one evaluate/determine the performance or quality of its fiber link?  With all the talk of clocks, power supplies, servers directly connected to DAC (Innuos) etc.. Confusing.  SOTM has a whole line of separate devices with dedicated USB, pwr, endpoint.

 

Specifically my switch (TP-Link TL-SG2216 ) is AC powered connected to a UPS along with my router/FW, modem, NAS, all of which are in in a network rack located in laundry room with a 25m optical cable to listening room which is connected to a FMC (Trendnet TFC-1000MGA) to a mU.  Wkst running ROON server and HQP are also in laundry room connected to switch via BJC cat6e.  SFP modules are cisco glc-sx-mm

 

I'm thinking hard about next move, so many differentiating opinions about svr direct connect (to DAC) or separate modules (similar to my setup).  What to do?

 

This weekend I added a simple setup diagram showing how to connect a router to a opticalModule / opticalRendu. I'm going to add other diagrams soon showing things like an opticalModule with a ultraRendu or Ethernet DAC.  

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, sahmen said:

Thanks John:  My upgrade path actually leads to eventually to the opticalRendu. Getting the optical module and using it with my ultrarendu will just be an interim phase.  I actually see myself winding up with two different setups, one of which will be opticalrendu based, and the second of which will be the ultrarendu upgraded with an optical module.  

 

To be honest, (and I am not sure how "sacrilegious" it is to mention this here), I am also awaiting the release of the etherregen, because I am curious about what kinds of extra enhancements (if any) it might bring to the table, if/when used in place of the optical module, with an opticalRendu (I am assuming that this would be its place of appropriate deployment, i.e. between a router and the opticalRendu)...  So I see a period of exciting experimentations ahead, and I am trying to remain as patient and un-rushed as I possibly can throughout the entire process. There seem to be several options available, and I wish I had the budgetary wherewithal to try everything, but I unfortunately don't.  This is why i am trying to proceed with some caution in choosing and experimenting with these new components.

Even for an "intermittent phase" that is still a very good solution;) No worries as there will be various solutions and different people will need different setups. For example I have a work station where I will need a EtherRegen because I need multiple outputs for testing different gear from one common RJ-45 run. In my main system I only an opticalModule because I have a dedicated RJ-45 I use. Mix and match as needed and as budget allows.    

[vortecjr]

1 hour ago, Highfilter said:

I've had the opticalRendu running since Friday. Here's my listening impressions:

 

opticalRendu USB (Sbooster MKII 6V) vs. Rendu i2s (SE Upgraded) -> Holo Audio Spring DAC L3:

• Most noticeable improvement through the opticalRendu on my system is the rendering of high frequency leading edges and presentation of vocals. Attacks are slightly more crisp with less etch. I would use the term slightly "rounder" but they're still very sharp/crisp. Vocal sibilance on tracks is a bit less harsh/airy and is rendered more to the point, sounding less artifical to me. Easy targets for this are: Massive Attack - Psyche, or Feist - Leisure Suite. These are minor improvements but easily noticeable when switching between the sources.
• Lesser improvements appear through the midrange. Guitars and strings are a touch more textured or "meat on the bones". Nirvana's "Lake Of Fire" sounding crazy good right now.
• Bass, soundstage, imaging, blackground... all remain amazing and both units are dead silent. No real noticeable change here but the level is already so high.

Overall both units are top notch and any improvements are pretty subtle at this point - unless you're coming from a really lesser source (IMO). Unit setup was very easy and the different playback modes work great. PS: I did try the LPS 1.2 on the opticalRendu but it kept going red/losing connection - but that's not surprising as my DAC needs USB power. Using it on the TP-Link MC220L instead. Sbooster MKII 6V works flawlessly on the opticalRendu and doesn't break a sweat.

 

I know the comparison is not an apples to apples comparison, but these are the units I have available. Impressive results since the Spring DAC i2s should have the upperhand. Of course I could chain another device AFTER the opticalRendu to convert USB -> i2s but I'd rather just upgrade my DAC instead.

 

I've also ordered the opticalModule to replace the TP-Link MC220L. I'll report how that goes when it arrives.

 

Playback chain details below:

• Software: Playback through DLNA (jRiver) and also HQPlayer (NAA) - both worked great.
• opticalRendu chain: Router -> TP-Link MC220L (PS: LPS 1.2 9V) -> opticalRendu (PS: Sbooster MKII 6V) -> WyWires Silver USB.
• Rendu (SE Upgraded) chain: Router -> Rendu -> AudioQuest Chocolate HDMI.
• Playback chain: (All interconnects WyWires Silver): PI Audio ÜberBUSS -> Rendu -> Holo Audio Spring DAC L3 > Goldpoint SA1X > Hegel H20 -> Salk SoundScape 10.

Optical stuff confirmed working for those in Canada:

• Optical Cable
• TP-Link MC220L
• TP-Link TL-SM311LM SFP

Back to listening!

Thank you for posting your feedback. Enjoy!

[vortecjr]

3 hours ago, cat6man said:

 

hi john/jesus:

 

i want to see if i understand this correctly, as i may have missed something important here.

 

are you saying that an opticalModule, with short ethernet from my network switch, will sound better than simply using the single mode optical SFP output from my network switch?

 

i guess i 'heard' folks saying that the cheap optical converters were not very good (and my experience is that they made my ultraRendu sound worse) but i had thought that the optical connection to the opticalRendu cleaned things up.

in other words, i thought (hoped?) that the opticalRendu made the uplink source irrelevant

 

so, what is the consensus on SFP at network switch==>opticalRendu vs. having the opticalModule do the conversion to optical?

 

since i'm away from home on travel, I'll give you all a week to resolve this critical question for me

 

i'm not really interested in "is A is better than B", more like 'what give the BEST' sound

 

 

There is a form sponsor and a whole stupid thread here on CA telling people to do silly things. We build sensible products with audiophile design considerations and we don’t try to over sell the products or expect our customers to embellish the end results. We are simply giving you practical advise on different setups. If your network already has optical capabilities by all means use it. If you don’t already have an optical network or want to experiment further add a opticalModule feed from RJ-45 to obtain the optical network. What I can say is that the people who have tried the opticalModule liked it, but only you can tell us if you like in your system. 

[vortecjr]

Great post John...thanks!

[vortecjr]

57 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

Good explanation, but I don't understand why an accurate clock would matter for an ethernet transmission? Its a packet based protocol with no time dependencies in it, and it transports binary data and has error correction. Jitter exists on a low level, but not in the same way as for example for a time-dependent transmission over SPDIF. Instead jitter in ethernet can cause bit-errors, but in a home environment that rarely happens and if/when it does it will just trigger a resend.

I am not one of those "bits are bits" people, I know clocks and isolation matters a lot for audio-formats like USBAudio and SPDIF, but in the case of ethernet I don't understand how a good clock would affect sound quality.
 

He is not saying that it affects ethernet transmission and the transmission is bit perfect. What is he saying is that the noise signature of one oscillator in the sequence can be picked up in subsequent oscillators. This is my understanding based on many conversations with John and he will chime in as needed.

[vortecjr]

3 hours ago, lumos said:

Dear John,

 

I am in awe of your patience. I used to believe that everything in the digital domain was the same until I saw that data in an oscilloscope and realised that, in fact, nothing in the digital domain is really digital at all. States do not change instantly from a 0 to a 1, there is a leading edge slope and a trailing edge slope. You now have the problem of deciding at what voltage will you say the state has actually changed. Is everything in the chain doing it the same, or even consistently. As Rob Watts at Chord demonstrates, the human brain is incredibly sensitive to timing errors and its impact on the sense of realism. 

 

But none of this really matters. I don't really have a good sense of hearing and I always go to the bother of double blind testing new equipment. I start off being cynical and sometimes I am proved wrong (my microrendus were better than my Sonicorbiters and my Ultrarendus are better than my microrendus. The Uptone Audio power supplies made a positive impact. When the DAC test revealed that I had preferred the Chord Mojo to my Naim DAC in nine out of 10 tracks I sold my Naim DAC. I have never been able to discern a difference with interconnects, power cables, speaker cables. 

 

So for me John has earned some trust in an industry where very few do. This is not homeopathy, here John explains a real mechanism of action and the price of the equipment feels very much like cost plus as opposed to the usual "how much can we charge whilst keeping a straight face" strategy. 

 

The only data point the matters is do we like what it sounds like. If I love the sound then nothing really matters. And the optical rendu plus module will not even buy you a power lead with a wooden ring on it.

It's posts like this that make what we do all worth the effort. 

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, bobflood said:

And, the pertinent question is:

 

Does any of this actually matter in the final output of the DAC?

 

I look forward to John completing his test gear to actually measure and see.

John's testing / measurements aside the goal is simply to move past the old normal and give people a chance to decide form themselves now if it matters. The Rendu product line is diverse and we have something for everyone, even skeptics, to enjoy:)   

[vortecjr]

28 minutes ago, incus said:

Just to check back in - the Optical Rendu powered by a SOtM sPS-500 is sounding very very good indeed. It's the only power supply I could get to work on my desk - the LPS 1.2 I have talked about already. The Vinnie Rossi is far too noisy as a unit to have sitting there so close to me. And I was told not to try the TLS LPS on 9V. So there you have it...

 

The oRendu has officially knocked the sMS-200 Ultra SE out of my headphone playback chain for good. I know many with laugh/object/get their knickers in a twist when I say this - but it sounds best with two SOtM switches before it - the first one takes the Ethernet signal (via SOtM cables) from the modem and the server, then connects optically to the second SOtM switch which connects optically (obviously) to the oRendu. So triple reclocking and double optical isolation!  The oRendu plays into my mScaler/Hugo TT2 combo. Best my headphones have sounded since I started this hobby so many years ago... There is obviously more going on than just optical isolation helping with leakage. Those clocks and new parts are something else . Fantastic frequency balance along with seductive transients, gorgeous trailing edges, incredible air and ease around the notes, rock-solid timing, and a full-bodied, organic tone. I feel I am much more a part of the musical event - witnessing as it starts and unfolds in a much more direct way. It's uncanny at times, in fact, how inside the music I feel now. Everything has slowed down so the notes are observable, tangible, hovering in 3d space, whatever you want to call it. I am very grateful to be able to have such a tactile experience, to participate in the music in this way, almost giddy in fact... I've spent a long time "searching for the sound" and this is one of those products that brings me palpably closer. Great job, Sonore!

Definitely, the quote of the day. Enjoy! 

[vortecjr]

4 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Yes indeed and the reps from Sonore have very firmly denied and even ridicule that the clocks and PSU upstream of the renderer make ANY SQ difference, until now with their optical gear.

 

Yes and no. What John wrote about is something he has been researching for some time and we have been talking to him about just as long. While there are some white papers discussing the phenomena what remains is for John to complete his measurements for his own edification. John wants to understand this phenomena more than anyone. Understand that John is designing products for us and Alex and these things take time. He also may not want to disclose everything yet.

This phase noise is not something blaring obvious or easy to measure at the output of the DAC. In fact, I can't see it with my analyzer and it's very sensitive. As such, I have advised many to concern themselves with things that we can measure as having a significant impact on sound such as the use of a good power supply.

What I ridicule in the silly thread is trying to overly convince people that these approaches are massive improvements and needed for good sound. A microRendu produces incredible sound quality because its an incredible great design. What I ridicule is modding off the shelf gear with power supplies and expensive clocks they were never meant to take advantage of. The Rendu line and Module line are ground up designs.  What I ridicule is taking all the modded gear and interconnecting it with a bunch of wires that just pick up noise, defeat isolation, and defeat the very thing you are trying to achieve. None of this is needed with our gear because they all have clean power and low noise oscillators. What I ridicule is connection noisy gear to quiet gear and claiming massive improvements when clearly all you are doing is making things worse. Connect a computer via optical and you have infinite isolation. What I ridicule is a manufacturer coming into our forum and telling people they need two of their $1000 switches in series to get good sound. Sorry but this seems like a money grab to me. I can go on and on because there is plenty to ridicule. What should be obvious is the we are trying to lead by example.