Extreme dual PC computer audio setup shootout between AudioLinux and Windows Server 2019

[Windows X]

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

@Windows X Don’t worry, some people are just twits that have their pet issues ready to pull out any time somebody steps on their “flake” toes.

 

Thank you. Maybe he wanted to ask me about guidelines to setup Windows Server 2019 VS AL. If he asked me like this, I could tell him what he needs better. But saying he's potentially interested and ask about my stuff, I can only asked him to direct his inquiry through private channel and I did all I could to assist him with ambiguous requests.

 

Actually, everyone can download Windows Server 2019 free trial license to install and test themselves. They can also share their findings here saying how they prefer others over Windows platform they tried too. Today I also received one person who finally voiced his opinion that he prefers AL over optimized Windows Server 2016 in his system. It's the first feedback I heard and I'm telling you I finally heard one today.

 

And so far no one say anything bad about Linux platform yet. Most of them are free and paid one are great for its asking price. But some people need to realize they can't force everyone to have the same holy grail they have. Audiophile is hobby and what people share are ultimately opinions. Whether readers will believe it or not, it's good for community to have diversity.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[FelipeRolim]

40 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Can you explain how to do the WinS2016+AO in RAMDisk?   I have AO and then I can try a shoot out myself.

 

 

[kelvinwsy]

HI Keetakawee

I am at present testing the various combinations of AL Headless using HQPlayer NAA,  and Jussi's bootable Linux NAA Image and LMS/C3PO/Squeezelite and maybe even JRiver MC 25 Linux against my optimized WinServer2016Core AO/Fidelizer Pro8.3 running HQPlayer on my i7 6700k PC to a SOTM SM200Ultra Neo as End point.

 

The test machine I am using a i7 8650u Fanless quadcore minipc from aliexpress LEGlobal is the trade name }.

OK it is not an Intel NUC but if I am testing the AL using diff music player SW against other OS's then the different PC make is mute!

 

Just got to be aware there are very entrenched opinions among the various Audiophile Style Forum active members on their latest favourite Audiophile trick up the sleeve. Step gingerly that is what I always do. Don't want to get my head bitten off.  

 

WIll be posting my findings in several forum threads... 

For the moment, an initial run last nite - My WInServerCore2016/AO/8,3Pro is the hands down winner.

 

More testing to do. I think there is a lot more tuning of the AL NAA mode that I need to do to make it sound good? Funny Jussi's NAA linux bootable image just boots up and plays fantastic music on the 8650u minipc endpoint> Oh still inferior to my SOTM SM200Ultra. 

 

Cannot seem to understand why everyone thinks a bog standard mass produced mobo in a fanless case meant for general public use as SOHO server/tv media player server can compare with an optimized ENDPOINT device like SOTM. So I paid my money to get the 8650u and AL to do my own comparison tests. Then I gave an early comparison opinion and I was told my testing is not valid as it is NOT an True Intel NUC! That is not my point of testing....

 

And even my i7 6700k PC is optimized until Lenovo would not recognize it. As it stands bog standard ,,, it sounds like CRAP!

Even with ALL the optimizations, I find that the NAA endpoint makes a audible difference. 

The BOGEYMan is Electric Noise and that comes across and DIgital Edge to the sound - as you have described it. I think even Jussi's linux naa has a clearer more trebly sound than the win 10 Naa but i need to do more testing and listening/

 

Your 8.3 Pro finally booted up with the correct machine ID you sent me. It sounds really great.

 

Thanks for the Music

Kelvin

[rickca]

30 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

My WInServerCore2016/AO/8,3Pro is the hands down winner.

Can you please clarify what you're comparing ...

 

WinServerCore2016/AO/Fidelizer Pro 8.3 running HQPlayer Desktop

AudioLinux Headless/i7-8650U fanless mini PC running NAA

 

These things aren't comparable so I'm missing some details or misunderstanding something.

[kelvinwsy]

I am testing AL as a OS to run the various music player sw on vs Jussi's linux NAA rambooted as well as his standard Win10 Pro Naa.

Other tests may be LMS/C3PO/Squeezelite on AL vs their equivalent windows version.

 

I am NOT testing the minipc vs whatever Intel NUC. THat i Cannot do as my 8650u is not officially an intel nuc.

[BigAlMc]

I said I was going to ignore this thread but not when I'm being attacked as a twit, a snowflake or the insinuation that I am either someone with an agenda or worse trolling this thread with my 'ambiguous' questions.

 

Let's break it down shall we.

 

I have been in the AL ecosystem since the 2nd of December 2018. That's what, 1 month, 1 week and some loose change. I am not a fanboy, I am not a diehard and I have no agenda. I am however seriously impressed with both Peiro and his work.

 

That said if something better comes along I reserve the right to jump ship and will do so without apology or hesitation. That's just the audiophile game. My current favourite USB cable is Peters wonderful Lush^2. But same goes. I'll move on if I become convinced there is a better option.

 

My current setup is an NUC with 16GB RAM (16 more on the way as the 2nd stick did not work and Crucial are replacing it for me) and 1 TB SSD running AL as Roon Server. Along with another NUC with 4GB RAM, no SSD, running AL as Roon Bridge or Squeezelite endpoint.

 

I posted on here yesterday because as long as the cost was not too prohibitive then I wanted to try WindowsX for myself and do my own comparison. 

 

My questions were not in the slightest ambiguous. They were also not answered. Let's regroup. In reverse order.

 

5. Does your product support Roon and LMS?

 

I assume it's a yes, but before I consider parting with any money I'd like to check. Please explain to me what is so confidential or proprietary that you cannot answer this?

 

4. How big is the footprint and how much RAM is needed to run solely in RAM?

 

In fairness this was semi answered but it was a little vague. Some clarity would be great here.

 

3. Is is Server only or is there an Endpoint option?

 

As per the description of my stack I'm running a server to endpoint setup and wanted to know if I can do apples to apples or not. Not that this is a deal breaker. But it's a basic question.

 

Again please tell me why this one is also secretive and cannot be answered on an open forum for the benefit of others wondering the same?

 

2. Is there a trial option?

 

Again very reasonable question. I'm happy to pay for a full license if I proceed and make your product my software of choice going forwards. But given I'd like to evaluate it then there is definitely no harm in asking whether you offer a trial option for just that.

 

If the answer is no then that's fine too. But I fail to see why you cannot answer this publicly either. It's a very basic question.

 

1. How much is your Windows Ramroot offering?

 

You answered that you do not support Ramroot. That's fine. Although you took the opportunity to throw in another insinuation about running in RAM having 'too much glare'. No one else in the NUC AL discussions is commenting on this but ok.

 

This is the one question where I can understand you wanting to take it to PM. But I called out the double standard that you are happy to discuss Peiro's pricing publicly but need an NDA to reveal your own.

 

The context is that not only did you discuss AL pricing but you then lobbed in disparaging remarks like "good for the money". Sorry but this is why people are attacking you on these forums. You seem to be playing a double game of lobbing insulting remarks and insinuations about your competitor but then hiding behind "let's take it offline" when asked about your own offering.

 

So no, Keewatakee, you did not:

 

10 hours ago, Windows X said:

I did all I could to assist him with ambiguous requests

 

You repeatedly ducked simple questions.

 

I am not an AL fanboy. I was genuinely interested in trying your software if the cost wasn't too high. But I am no closer to understanding whether your software works for me or not because you ducked the questions time and time again.

 

As for you @Solstice380 - you owe me an apology. I was acting in good faith and asking reasonable questions. You attacked me with personal insults for no good reason.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[Solstice380]

@BigAlMc  That wasn’t written directly at you, but it got the type of response I expected.  When someone’s first response to a manufacturer’s input is that it’s because “they are selling something” and must be bashing everything else, I think it is an unfair bias.  The software guys like Miska, Peter, Piero, Keetakawee, etc. have listened to a lot of different stuff trying to find the “best” SQ.  I don’t have any loyalty to anything, either, and I trust most other hobbyists ears about as much as a rock.  The s/w guys have developed a lot of knowledge of how a computer affects SQ.  

 

My apologies, Alan.  We all need to watch what we say a little more.  Peace ☮️!

[FelipeRolim]

If someone who doesn't have financial constraints (because it costs more) to hear a Windows and doesn't think better than this AudioLinux or any other Linux (I tried everything I could), this can only mean two things: either the owner didn't know how to properly adjust the Windows/the computer, or the person simply has no ears...

 

There can be little doubt when an XMOS interface is used midway to the DAC because this interface works very well with Linux. Normally, however, only the fact that the manufacturer provides native specific drivers for Windows already allows playback to take a few steps toward Windows (it's a trend, not a rule). Some time ago, influenced by reading (it's amazing how reading creates "needs" in people who make no sense), I tried everything. There's no success in front of a well-adjusted Windows, and my computer has been stoned for more than five years.

 

I don't say this because of AudioLinux, specifically, but because of any Linux (from the "ready" solutions - Daphile and others - to those I tried to adjust for myself). They are simply not good for audio, which I don't consider a Windows "win", since they have price (and optimization software as well), while Linux is free. I also don't write this in defense of the Fidelizer, because I don't use it. I say this because music isn't just detailed sound (which Linux has), music isn't just defined bass (which Linux has), music isn't just an excellent sound stage (which Linux has). Music needs to deliver life, excitement, have as much textures as possible, richer harmonics, and these things, Linux doesn't have. True music is the one we hear with our ears, but we feel with the body, with the heart, and so they convey us expressiveness, emotion, life. I don't like presentations that make it look like we're behind a glass, which, though perfectly translucent, still gets in the way. After years trying a lot of things, and even if I wanted Linux to play better, it didn't. So, I use Windows, which "removes the glass"...

 

And I repeat: I'm impressed to see how the internet (and especially the forums) create "needs" in people. It's the turn of the Uptone, it's the turn of the SOtM, it's the turn of the Linux, it's the turn of the NUC, it's the turn of the clocked switches, it's the turn of the HQPlayer (because ONLY DSD512 can deliver a really analog sound!). Pure nonsense. I'm always waiting for the next "discovery". In any case, don't forget: music is emotion. Feel it, don't just listen to it.

[Solid-State]

39 minutes ago, FelipeRolim said:

If someone who doesn't have financial constraints (because it costs more) to hear a Windows and doesn't think better than this AudioLinux or any other Linux (I tried everything I could), this can only mean two things: either the owner didn't know how to properly adjust the Windows/the computer, or the person simply has no ears...

 

There can be little doubt when an XMOS interface is used midway to the DAC because this interface works very well with Linux. Normally, however, only the fact that the manufacturer provides native specific drivers for Windows already allows playback to take a few steps toward Windows (it's a trend, not a rule). Some time ago, influenced by reading (it's amazing how reading creates "needs" in people who make no sense), I tried everything. There's no success in front of a well-adjusted Windows, and my computer has been stoned for more than five years.

 

I don't say this because of AudioLinux, specifically, but because of any Linux (from the "ready" solutions - Daphile and others - to those I tried to adjust for myself). They are simply not good for audio, which I don't consider a Windows "win", since they have price (and optimization software as well), while Linux is free. I also don't write this in defense of the Fidelizer, because I don't use it. I say this because music isn't just detailed sound (which Linux has), music isn't just defined bass (which Linux has), music isn't just an excellent sound stage (which Linux has). Music needs to deliver life, excitement, have as much textures as possible, richer harmonics, and these things, Linux doesn't have. True music is the one we hear with our ears, but we feel with the body, with the heart, and so they convey us expressiveness, emotion, life. I don't like presentations that make it look like we're behind a glass, which, though perfectly translucent, still gets in the way. After years trying a lot of things, and even if I wanted Linux to play better, it didn't. So, I use Windows, which "removes the glass"...

 

And I repeat: I'm impressed to see how the internet (and especially the forums) create "needs" in people. It's the turn of the Uptone, it's the turn of the SOtM, it's the turn of the Linux, it's the turn of the NUC, it's the turn of the clocked switches, it's the turn of the HQPlayer (because ONLY DSD512 can deliver a really analog sound!). Pure nonsense. I'm always waiting for the next "discovery". In any case, don't forget: music is emotion. Feel it, don't just listen to it.

Ohh no not one more guy who thinks he knows everything about sound and how it should sound,

Please stop saying the one ting sound bad,
and one thing sounds Best,
it's ALL ABOUT PERSONAL TASTE

[Solid-State]

so ALL High End streamers who use LInux sound crap

[FelipeRolim]

Hahahahahaha, I completely agree with you, but I know exatly what I listen. What I see, however, are people influenced by the media, who feel the need to have something new and, more than that, to say that it is really good. Some people don't seem to care about what they hear, but about what others say they have to hear. Others simply seek "limpidity", extreme resolution, but forget emotion, life, expressiveness. This has to exist in music, and this is my point. I don't intend to "teach" someone how to listen. This is personal, nontransferable, but it's important to be careful, because we are all capable of being influenced, by the euphoria of something new, by expectation of result, by mood, by everything. We need to be careful.

 

I know about music and much more about musical reproduction, although I know little about musical production. In all these years, no Linux has taken me even close to what I consider correct, faithful to the media, but using it on a computer. It goes against what I seek. It's an opinion, as many others have their own opinions...

 

Streamers can have excellent quality, can be very high level and extremely competitive. However, at the highest level of quality, at the limit, I don't consider that, today, a digital system works without a computer as a transport. I know many CD players, from the basic Sony to the Ayre, Audio Research, Esoteric. I think recently, computers are in a position to be ahead of them with the correct adjustments. I really believe the future is this. No ARM platforms, which don't look good either. I speak of real computers and carefully assembled, in every detail, from the inlet to the USB connection...

 

I really consider Windows far superior to any Linux, but I believe we should record this as more of an opinion, not as an affront or a destrutive opinion. The part that I really consider important is the one that deals with what to look for in musical reproduction. This seems to be being overlooked. We are all here seeking a common goal, which is the pleasure in audio. Of course, the more pleasure, the better...

[BigAlMc]

Thanks @Solstice380,

 

We're good and I get where you were coming from but that's not what I was doing.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Windows X]

It's not appropriate for manufacturer who is not a sponsor in forum to make a post related to products they're offering. Answering BigAlMc's question in public forum is a bad conduct and I can't provide my answers in this manner.

 

If BigAlMc is not comfortable to talk with me privately, he can choose to drop this discussion and I'll respect his decision. My intention is for knowledge sharing and I have no intention to make sales conversion in public discussion.

 

You may think it's nothing wrong to answer your questions here but it's actually wrong for manufacturer's to answer those questions which can be treated as promoting their products to answer those. It's also about manner and etiquette.

 

As for Linux platform having glare issues, I believe some have but most of them may not feel comfortable enough to post about it. You can see the outcome after this message from here.

 

 

I don't mind answering questions related to other products like Windows Server 2019 about making use of free trial license to compare with others or some basic guidelines like using the same apps on different platforms though.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[tapatrick]

Could someone please explain what hardware/software and settings are being talked about here which is claimed to be better than AL NUC setup? I'm getting lost. Thanks in advance!

[Advieira]

4 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Could someone please explain what hardware/software and settings are being talked about here which is claimed to be better than AL NUC setup? I'm getting lost. Thanks in advance!

 

I think they’re talking Windows server ram mode, using Audiophile Optimizer ou Fidelizer, using Dual PC with Jplay.

 

I wonder how it sounds in a Nuc7i7.

 

[tapatrick]

11 minutes ago, Advieira said:

 

I think they’re talking Windows server ram mode, using Audiophile Optimizer ou Fidelizer, using Dual PC with Jplay.

 

I wonder how it sounds in a Nuc7i7.

 

thanks @Advieira! yes wondering also..

[FelipeRolim]

59 minutes ago, Advieira said:

 

I think they’re talking Windows server ram mode, using Audiophile Optimizer ou Fidelizer, using Dual PC with Jplay.

 

I wonder how it sounds in a Nuc7i7.

 

 

Speak superficially as this is completely wrong. I'm talking about a completely dedicated computer, as I said, carefully constructed from the inlet to the USB output, from beginning to end. Reading what you wrote, the way you wrote, makes it seem like we're talking about any PC, any hardware (such as a notebook, a MacBook Pro, for example), which is not true. I'm writing about my point of view in the JPLAY forum, in this thread: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2668-requirements-for-a-dedicated-computer/. But, it is important to reinforce: my point of view.

 

Another detail: I've been using JPLAY for quite some time. Before, I used JRiver, then I went through HySolid, and I already tested some other software, such as Album Player. All cases with superior results to the best Linux I encountered at the time.

 

I haven't had much time to try out all the software on the market, and I honestly think it's a waste of time. Testing for testing, as I see some people do (installs, puts to play and listens) doesn't allow you to achieve any result. We must give each software, on its own, conditions to deliver its maximum. Without this, no result is valid. So, only after I got to the maximum I could with various software, I chose JPLAY, and JPLAY is still showing potential for improvement with specific changes. From the moment I believe that I cannot go any further with JPLAY, I intend to broaden the range of experiments.

 

In any case, it's only important to clarify that, in the same way that the NUC has its strengths, it's still far behind of what I understand to deliver an audiophile-level computer. And if it is to have a NUC to fill up with "pendants" from SOtM, from Uptone, from Sonore, from iFi, then better build a PC yourself. I can assure that can deliver something far superior...

[Solid-State]

Nothing sounds BETTER !!
ONLY different,

[tapatrick]

38 minutes ago, FelipeRolim said:

 

Speak superficially as this is completely wrong. I'm talking about a completely dedicated computer, as I said, carefully constructed from the inlet to the USB output, from beginning to end. Reading what you wrote, the way you wrote, makes it seem like we're talking about any PC, any hardware (such as a notebook, a MacBook Pro, for example), which is not true. I'm writing about my point of view in the JPLAY forum, in this thread: http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/2668-requirements-for-a-dedicated-computer/. But, it is important to reinforce: my point of view.

 

Another detail: I've been using JPLAY for quite some time. Before, I used JRiver, then I went through HySolid, and I already tested some other software, such as Album Player. All cases with superior results to the best Linux I encountered at the time.

 

I haven't had much time to try out all the software on the market, and I honestly think it's a waste of time. Testing for testing, as I see some people do (installs, puts to play and listens) doesn't allow you to achieve any result. We must give each software, on its own, conditions to deliver its maximum. Without this, no result is valid. So, only after I got to the maximum I could with various software, I chose JPLAY, and JPLAY is still showing potential for improvement with specific changes. From the moment I believe that I cannot go any further with JPLAY, I intend to broaden the range of experiments.

 

In any case, it's only important to clarify that, in the same way that the NUC has its strengths, it's still far behind of what I understand to deliver an audiophile-level computer. And if it is to have a NUC to fill up with "pendants" from SOtM, from Uptone, from Sonore, from iFi, then better build a PC yourself. I can assure that can deliver something far superior...

Have you tried an NUC with AL in ram as discussed on the other thread?

 

I understand that you consider your set up the best. Please explain what you have built/set up or show me where I can find out the details and facts. Thanks!

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, Windows X said:

...As for Linux platform having glare issues, I believe some have but most of them may not feel comfortable enough to post about it. You can see the outcome after this message from here.

 

Can you clarify why you posted this. MrUnderhill said his glare issue was not to do with the operating system...?

[FelipeRolim]

Hello tapatrick.  No, I haven't tested AudioLinux with a NUC, only with my own computer, and also didn't exhaust all the possibilities of configuration and use that it offers. However, considering the NUCs I've had the opportunity to get to know (not yet the most modern of Intel's - 7th generation and above), I believe they are still limited. Among those I've heard and an optimized Mac Mini, I believe I would opt for the Mac Mini, but would need to compare them directly. However, I speak based on what I heard, and these specific models that they indicate for AudioLinux (NUC7) I don't know.

 

I don't consider my system the best, in its entirety, and it doesn't even touch the best I've heard. However, in terms of software, I'm using what I thought best, for today. I listen carefully, and always bearing in mind that the digital sector is constantly evolving. I try to keep an open mind, but free from these "market trends"...

[Windows X]

15 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Can you clarify why you posted this. MrUnderhill said his glare issue was not to do with the operating system...?

 

My apologies. It seems I quoted the wrong post. Here's the correct one.

My point is some people may have issues but most of them did not voice their opinions in forum for some reason. If we can encourage people to express their findings more freely in both what they do well or what they lack, maybe the products can be improved better with such feedback.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[Dutch]

I don’t think people are ‘afraid’ to share their honest feedback.

 

Bobfa and I both have have also reported brightness/glare issues with the NUC/AL with some tracks, not all of them. Speaking for myself I’m still working out where these come from. Currently I also have an issue with my SR-7 waiting to be resolved so I’m not yet ‘trusting’ my system and thus not making any conclusions. But even now there’s many good things I hear from the NUC/Al combo too.

 

 

[Windows X]

1 minute ago, Dutch said:

I don’t think people are ‘afraid’ to share their honest feedback.

 

Bobfa and I have have also reported brightness/glare issues with the NUC/AL. Speaking for myself I’m still working out where these come from. Currently I also have an issue with my SR-7 waiting to be resolved so I’m not yet ‘trusting’ my system and thus not making any conclusions.

 

 

 

Hi. Thank you for contribution to help community. What I said based on what I heard from people I know so I'm aware there's people who's not afraid to share opinions like you and I and I hope there'll be more in future.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[Dutch]

4 minutes ago, Windows X said:

 

Hi. Thank you for contribution to help community. What I said based on what I heard from people I know so I'm aware there's people who's not afraid to share opinions like you and I and I hope there'll be more in future.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

 

If that’s true that’s “a shame”. When people get inspired from ideas by others shared on a public forum the least they could do is give some feedback after they’ve tried things themselves. Those experiences (good or bad) are a lot more valuable then the dismissive posts from some who haven’t even tried any of it.