Everything sounds the same

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

In nearly every area a cable consists of multiple conductors, each performing a particular function - that's the context I was considering.

Not necessarily. Many "boutique" cables consist of bundles of individually insulated strands, all carrying exactly the same signal, and don't bring-up "skin-effect", it doesn't exist below about 10 MHz. This is true in Interconnects and speaker cables. Some multi stranded signal cables (like the wiring loom in a modern car do consist of large multi-wire cables each performing a different task, but that has little to do with audio. 

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

The digital signal is analogue - you can look at it on an analogue scope, and it has all the properties of any analogue waveform. But in terms of its significance in the circuitry in which it's found, yes, its value is its digital behaviour.

While that's true in a sense, I might add that the circuitry using that digital signal doesn't care that the signal is a variable voltage or current. All it cares about is being able to read the ones and zeros. There can be all kinds of noise accompanying those ones and zeros, but as long as the receiver circuitry can pull the ones and zeros out of the noise, it doesn't matter. Most digital signals go through a level detector and into a FIFO anyway. The FiFO has it's own clock and if the digital stream gets spread out or pinched together during the transmission, The FIFO restores the correct timing (I.E. the interval between each bit). 

[gmgraves]

47 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

When I was traveling in the south of France many years ago, I fell in love with the pan bagnat - a sandwich consisting of a fresh Salade Nicoise on a big round bun. I made it a habit to eat one every day. Delicious and healthy to boot!

Oh yes. I had one of those on the beach at Cannes. You're right. Just incredibly delicious!

[gmgraves]

19 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

We've been here over and over and over again, George . The contact enhancers I tried didn't "solve the problem" - they changed the progession of degradation, and ultimately made it worse - for audio. Which was confirmed by thoroughly cleaning the enhancer gunk off, and immediately listening to a enhancer free, minty fresh connection. Repeated the exercise several times - enhancers like this were then struck off the list of useful tweaks.

 

The contact area has to have sufficent integrity - end of story. I've found solutions which work, so they automatically get used, every time.

We've been over this and over this, Frank. With all due respect, you are full of it!

[gmgraves]

On 9/26/2018 at 4:36 AM, pkane2001 said:

 

Except for maybe some quantum states of elementary particles, there is nothing digital in this universe that isn't carried or represented by some analog signal. That's how it's been designed, that's how it works, there's nothing new here.

 

And it's mostly wrong-headed that what makes analog devices sound great will also help digital. These are completely different types of signals, used for different purpose, processed differently, running at different frequencies with a completely different result when subjected to the same set of distortions.

That's because the real world is analog. There is no way to express a digital file except through an analog interface. And you are quite correct about it being wrong headed to equate an analog signal with whatever problems and shortcomings it might have with  a digital signal. The digital circuitry doesn't care about the analog part, it's just a carrier. AS long as the digital circuitry can SEE the one's and zeros in the analog carrier, it doesn't care. I've seen digital signals that looked so bad, mixed in with noise, the waveforms  compromised until the square waves representing each digit looked more like noisy sine waves or triangular wave forms than square wave pulses. Yet the digital receiving circuitry had no problem retrieving them and decoding them perfectly. I was the designer/developer of the original Supertex garage door opener chip. !5 bit, NRZ encoding transmitted over an RF link. We tested that chip under every known condition, and as long as the receiver could "see" the datas stream, it always worked, no matter how nonsensical the transmitted signal looked!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

Ugghhh ... forgot my IEMs and my son is driving ... listening to his hip hop on his Honda Accord car stereo ... I feel like @gmgraves and need @fas42 to come and resolder all the wires 

You mean short 'em out so that the music doesn't play any more? Naw, he has a right to his taste as disappointing as that might be

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

I was disappointed he passed on the Joshua Bell concert last night ? He told me that he thinks that in the future Eminem will be viewed the way we view Beethoven ?

 

I have to say that the car stereo was particularly painful demonstrating to me that, no, not all electronics sound the same.

Tell your son he's wrong. And you can give this example. There was a wildly popular crooner/songwriter in the United States in the 1920's and 1930's named Russ Columbo His career ended in 1934, when he was visiting a friend at the friend's photo studio. Apparently as they conversed, he absent-mindedly picked up an antique flint-lock pistol that the photographer had borrowed as a prop for a photo shoot when it inexplicably went off! Columbo was killed instantly. In 1934 everybody in the country knew who Russ Columbo was. Today, nobody remembers his name, has ever heard anything either written by or performed by him. He is essentially unknown. Popular music and pop performers are like that: ephemeral. Here today, gone tomorrow. Pop music differs from art in that it is a commercial enterprise  and an entertainment, rather than an art form. Sometimes pop music becomes art, but not very often. Also. keep in mind that just because something is regarded as art, doesn't mean that it is good art! For instance, in the Museum of Modern Art in Manhattan, there is a piece of art consisting of nothing more than a slab of wall board, with an "American Standard" urinal (!) mounted on it! It doesn't even work and patrons are discouraged from trying to use it for it's intended purpose! 

There are exceptions and time sorts them out. The music of George Gershwin and Cole Porter, from roughly the same era as Columbo will surely live "forever'" as will the music and songs and shows of Rodgers and Hammerstein and Lerner And Lowe As for crooners, I suspect that Crosby and Sinatra have passed the test of time (but maybe not), but I'm reasonably sure that Elvis will, as will The Beatles and perhaps the Beach Boys. But again I could be wrong. There is so little actual "music" in rap (IMHO) that I don't really understand how it's lasted this long!!? (but I'm probably not qualified to make any real critique of rap and hip-hop, so take that with a grain of sand).

Indeed, not all electronics sound the same. Luckily (for me) I have decided long ago that I don't care about car audio AT ALL. There are two types of car audio systems; ones that are good enough for me to listen to while driving and those that fall below my minimums (meaning they're painful to listen to). This might sound unusual to say, and perhaps my memory is wrapped in nostalgia, but I think that the best car sound I ever heard was the "Sonora" AM/FM radio (the first FM section ever made available in an American car AFAIK) in my father's 1954 Buick Century! It was tubed of course with about a 12 Watt push-pull amp using 6V6 output tubes. The 6X9 speaker was part of the radio chassis itself and "spoke" from dashboard. It must have had a coaxial tweeter, because in FM it certainly had highs. In 1954, I doubt seriously if most people's home radios sounded as good! I do remember that when my dad bought his 1959 Buick Electra, the radio didn't sound anywhere as good. Luckily we kept the '54 for mom to drive, and later for me.  

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

OK, last one (lucky you) ... About pancakes and pizzas.

 

I forgot where it was exactly, but a bit of a larger city above Phoenix. Pizzas are generally fine and we ate them in general restaurants. I mean, not Italian restaurants.

This time we found the real Italian restaurant and I went for a pizza. Okayyy. The bottom really was like a pancake and I asked the waiter what this was about. "We can't make them better here, Sir". And "You may like to order something else".

Really.

OK. Most pizzerias in the US who make real Neapolitan-style pizza use real Italian high-protein flour. The brand I have seen the most in these places is Caputo. There is no American brand of flour like it. I've been told that you can't make a Neapolitan style pizza without it. There are other brands of Italian flour than Caputo, but that's the one I recognize. Also, you can't use American mass produced rubbery mozzarella cheese, you need the white, soft stuff that comes packed in water. Many American Neapolitan style pizzerias make their own in house (it's not difficult), BUT, in Italy, the mozzarella is made with the milk of water buffalos and essentially all the mozzarella made in the US is cows milk and there is a subtle difference in the resulting cheese. Real Neapolitan pizza is cooked in wood-fired ovens that are kept at around 900 degrees F.  Finally, the classic Neapolitan pizza is called the pizza Margarita (named after an Italian queen [female]). It is very simple: thin crust, cooked fast and lightly charred in spots on the bottom. The topping is crushed San Marzanno tomatoes (canned or fresh) garlic, EV olive oil, "mozzarella buffula", fresh torn basil. That's it! Nothing else. And as simple as that sounds, No American pizza with everything but the kitchen sink on it, while loved by many, can't hold a candle to that simple concoction when it comes to FLAVOR! 

It's really interesting about most foods that Americans call "Italian". They aren't. Order Spaghetti and meatballs (or meat sauce) in Italy and the waiter will look at you like you were something that crawled from under a rock. Spaghetti is served in Italy, but it's served with olive oil, butter, garlic and cheese.  And in the south, it's served with pesto. Meatballs are served in Italy, but they are a separate course, never in conjunction with spaghetti, which is usually the first course. Italians make meat sauce. It's made in the North in the region of Bologna. It's called ragu bolognese, and it's usually made with veal or pork and has tomatoes and some form of dairy (milk or cream). It is usually served with tubular pastas like penne or Rigatoni, NEVER stranded pastas like spaghetti or fettuccine. Lasagna is a real Italian dish, but if you had it in southern Italy, you wouldn't recognize it. 

If you were of Italian extraction, raised in either NYC or New Jersey, you may have had an Italian grandmother or aunt who, on special occasions, would make something that she might have called "Sunday Gravy". It was a rich tomato sauce with pork shoulder, beef Roulados, meatballs, and Italian sausages simmered in it. It's delicious, no doubt. It is ladled over pasta and you get some pork shoulder, cooked until it falls apart, a beef roulade, an Italian sausage link and a meatball. Put some grated cheese on it,   big slice of Italian bread, a side salad and a glass or two of red wine, and all is right with the world. But In Italy, they never heard of it!

 

[gmgraves]

 

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Oh there are so so many debates ... so this: https://pepespizzeria.com/about/

According to the "Neapolitan Pizza Association" a true Neapolitan pizza must be cooked in a domed brick oven with a wood fire at a temperature of around 480 degrees C. 

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Interestingly, and folks from CT will verify, despite recreating the original ovens brick by brick, the new locations have never been able to equal the original in terms of flavor. The theory is that the wooden shelves where the dough is stored create an environment for the yeast ... the new sites use metal shelves as the wood was "grandfathered" in ...

That's interesting. Things like that are often unexplainable. Like being unable to replicate the sound of a Stradivarius violin in spite of copying one exactly - down to the wood used and where the wood came from and drying the wood just like Stardivari, using the same glue, and replicating the same varnish using beetle carapaces from the same species harvested from the same area. They still don't sound alike!

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

In any case the pizza in the Northeast USA has little local diversities and passionate adherents e.g. wood vs coal ovens, Neopolitan vs Sicilian, etc etc etc., much like my experience in Italy where moving down the coast from just over the Monaco border all the way down, the pizza changes, slightly, from town to town.

Well, next to a Margherita made by the Pizzeria Da Michele in Naples (supposedly the best pizza in the world and where I fell in love with that style of pie), Some of the best pizza I've ever eaten was in Manhattan and New Jersey. I was visiting NYC on business one time and my company's rep took me to a tiny shop near Washington Square (IIRC) run by an elderly Italian gent - there was no else there that I could see! Pizza was by the slice, and vended through a service window out to the street. There was no place inside to sit down. We ate ours on a park bench! The rep said it was the best pizza in NYC and suggested that I order just plain tomato and cheese, so I did. It was, without a doubt, the best tasting pizza I had ever eaten in the USA. There is much to be said for North-eastern US pizza. It's not Italian pizza, but it is delicious. Here in the Reno Area where I now live there are two pizzerias that serve a similar pie to the NYC type: One is a quite nice restaurant called Grimaldi's (like the Royal House of Monaco), I'm told it's a chain, but boy they do it right, and serve an excellent NY-style pie. The other is a hole-in-the-wall place in a strip mall simply called NY Pizza. They make only one size pie, a huge 21 inch affair. If you don't want a whole one, you buy it by the slice just like in NYC. It too is excellent. I have found that if the crust is "right" and the sauce is good and made with quality EV Olive oil and the cheese is high quality, I don't gots to have no steenkin' toppings. In fact fully loaded pizzas are, in my opinion a coverup for mediocre crust and sauce. (Dominos, Pizza Hut, Round Table, Little Caesars', et al) If you don't believe me, try a Dominos some time with just tomato sauce and cheese. I'll bet you that you won't like it!

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Now BBQ in the states, mostly the south ... same regional differences e.g. eastern vs western North Carolina pulled pork... just keep the pressure cooked mass produced and then slathered in corn syrup ribs away from me! I look for a stack of wood out back before driving in ...

I was born in Virginia and have always been a fan of good pork BBQ. In Richmond, where I was born, there is a chain of "hickory pit" barbecue places called "Bill's BBQ". To me that remains the gold standard for eastern Carolina style Q. They use a vinegar based sauce, no tomato and they chop the pork. They serve it on square "hamburger" buns with a mound of coleslaw on each sandwich with their own cider vinegar based hot sauce. Simply heaven on earth. Haven't had one since 2005 though when I was back there for my Moms funeral. I froze several big carry-out tubs of the stuff and packed it in my suitcase to bring it back with me to Silicon Valley where my friends fell on it like the barbarian hordes on Rome! 

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

all good fun  

 

It certainly is!

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Apologies for being pedantic, but as long as we're talking about "the real thing," I believe that's Margherita. 

That's OK. No Apologies needed, but I wrote Margherita and my auto spell checker "fixed it" for me....

[gmgraves]

22 hours ago, jabbr said:

First of all, let's not assume that the only pizza style is Neapolitan. Aside from Italy, there is a robust Greek style of pizza (cooked in an oiled pan as opposed to directly on brick) as well as coastal french "Pissaladière" which is very similar to Ligurian. Neither classically use tomatoes, and as has been said, the ubiquitous use of tomato sauce is probably American. Then there is classic Sicilian pizza which has a thicker crust, and often topped with caramelized onions. Baked into a square disk, and given rise to pizza styles: Detroit, Providence RI and probably what morphed into Chicago deep dish.

Oh believe me, I don't. I've had local pizza from Sicily to the Maritime Alpine town of Bardonecchia are all interesting and different. But one thing about Italian pizza that seems pretty consistent is that they put most of their emphasis on the quality of the crust and the tomato sauce. Any toppings are an afterthought and applied judiciously as if to say, hey the crust and sauce are what's important on this pie. other things just flavor it a little. Here in the USA, especially with the big chains, the emphasis is just the opposite. The crust and the sauce are the afterthoughts. The toppings make the pizza. Most of these pizzas are, IMHO, Inedible as simple tomato and cheese pies. The crust is like cardboard, the sauce is tasteless, and the cheese is like rubber. Yes this type of food is very old. The ancient greeks had a version, the Turks still do (it's good too!). 

 

Interesting thing, The Italians exported pizza to the United States (NYC) around the turn of the 20th Century. After WWII, Americans adopted and adapted it as our own, changed it to suit us, became regional, and then we re-exported our styles of pie back to Italy. I saw Pizza Huts in Rome! As to who would eat such a thing when there is such high quality fare around, I wouldn't know (there are Macdonalds in Europe too, but again, why? It's garbage anywhere you have it (again IMHO))!

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

the Chicago style round savory tomato sauced pie thing is NOT flat

The reason why I didn't answer the question is because it's too difficult. I would say that a pizza is a hot focaccia base with hot toppings on it. These can be olive oil tomatoes, cheese, onions, various meats, olives, etc., on top. But that's not 100% correct either. That's really just one style of pizza. I have never particularly liked Chicago style pizza. Too much bread. But I love the Chicago "Italian Beef" sandwich and the Chicago style hot dog with the celery salt and the pickle etc! I have made Italian Beef before and it's not too difficult, but I'd rather buy it ready to go.  

[gmgraves]

49 minutes ago, mansr said:

I thought it was for Hawaiian, invented by a Greek in Canada.

So-called Hawaiian pizza is pineapple and Canadian bacon. OK occasionally but I wouldn't want a steady diet....

[gmgraves]

53 minutes ago, esldude said:

Maybe it was a typo for cold...........................er  probably not. 

 

Probably was charcoal fired.  

No, it means coal, as in bituminous. It gives a really hot oven -around 1000 degrees F. Cooks a thin crust pizza in about 60-80 seconds. 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

tourists would do that - especially English or American tourists

Thus convincing Italians and other Europeans of something they already think they know about Americans - we have no taste. 

[gmgraves]

38 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

No -- not Cdn bacon but rather ham.

I guess that depends upon from who you buy it. 

[gmgraves]

16 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

http://time.com/4814056/hawaiian-pizza-pineapple-sam-panopoulos-death/

 

I spent my whole life in southern Ontario and have never seen a "Hawaiian pizza" with Canadian Bacon (better known as peameal bacon), only ham. I suppose somewhere, sometime, someone substituted Canadian bacon for ham.

I guess you're right. It used to be Canadian bacon, today, it seems t be ham. A quick check of a number of pizza parlors shows ham.

[gmgraves]

18 hours ago, esldude said:

Maybe it was a typo for cold...........................er  probably not. 

 

Probably was charcoal fired.  

I doubt it. Charcoal burns to fast. It's coal, the fuel of the industrial revolution. 

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, esldude said:

This purist talk of various versions of non-authentic pizza is convincing me the audiophile mindset is pathological.  

 

I know someone who spent big bucks to get the finest wood fired oven (oak wood I believe) and trained to cook proper purist highest quality Neopolitan pizza.  And it is something special.  But I can also enjoy the heck out of a well done Chicago style deep dish.  Plus I'll admit first hearing about pineapple on pizza seemed inherently wrong.  Tasting it changed my mind.  

 

So us audiophile's cannot get along with proletarian pizza's without ending up in some involved contentious discussion about pure pizza methods and expensive ways to accomplish that?   Wow, what a sad bunch of losers we are.

 

And are we not off topic unless we declare everything tastes the same?  I just hope it doesn't all taste like chicken, I don't care for chicken.  

I'm not sure that's correct. While I love a real Neapolitan Margharita,, I also love a good NY style pie, and have been known to order delivery from Dominos, Pizza-Hut, and Roundtable. Not great, surely, but when you're hungry....

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_in_the_United_States

Other than going to Naples and getting a "traditional" style pie, you'd have a hard time saying what an "authentic" pizza is anymore. Even in Italy they've been influenced by NY and other US style pizzas. 
 

Clearly it evolved in the US and immigrants from Italy were some of those that pushed the evolution (inventing Chicago style is one example). 
It is sort of like audio, IMO - whatever you like is good. You don't have to justify your taste to anyone.

Well. let's say that whatever you like is good for YOU. The best that can be said is that "there's no accounting for taste."

I ate my first pizza Margharita at "Da Michele" pizzeria in Naples, the supposed home of the original Margharita in the 1880s, so I know one when I taste one. There are actually a number Neapolitan pizzerias that have opened in the US that do a creditable job. They use the right flour: Caputo high protein, they use canned imported San Marzzeto tomatoes, fresh basil, and many of them make their own mozzarella cheese. The only thing different is that it's cows milk cheese not buffalo milk cheese. Not that much difference,

 

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

France is  McDonalds' second best market after the US  and it is very successful there. France is not the same as it was 40 years ago.
https://www.businessinsider.com/how-mcdonalds-conquered-france-2014-8?op=1

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/01/24/145698222/why-mcdonalds-in-france-doesnt-feel-like-fast-food

It called entropy, and it's occurring everywhere.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Well not good for my waistline!  I have been trying to stay away from pizza--and no I need to stay away from this thread because you guys keep making me hungry with all these posts.  Can't we go back to comparing clock radios to hi-fi?  At least I don't imagine eating either.  

I think that's a good idea. I'm pizza'd out.

[gmgraves]

32 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

and BTW, I bought some Italiano buffalo mozzarella (DOP) today - for use on a pizza

Let us know how much difference you notice between Mozzarella buffala and Mozzarella latte di mucca (cow's milk)!

 

[gmgraves]

44 minutes ago, diecaster said:

A bison farm or a buffalo farm? It's not a small difference....

I was gonna ask the same question. The buffalo I saw in the region of Italy south of Salerno around Paestum looked like they were related to African Water buffalo. They had those horns that plaster down on their heads like guys wore in in the late 19th century; parted in the middle and combed to both sides. 

Definitely not the same as the American Bison. While both are distantly related to cows, I doubt if their milk is interchangeable.

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

oh I can answer that now - it's a big difference!

 

our local fish market imports that (and lots of real cheeses)

 

Let me try to be more specific: the real buffala is much richer, esp. in the midtones, better bass definition and maybe extension, while not being too "hot" in the higher ranges

I've never compared them. They don't seem to make a lot of difference on Margherita Pizzas, though - or at least, I didn't notice much.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Guess I have never thought about it, but who gets the chore of milking the buffalos?  That must be quite a sight.  

Milking machines do it in southern Italy...