Concert Hall sound

[semente]

8 hours ago, GeneZ said:

  I used sell high end audio.....

 

This may be used against you. ?

 

8 hours ago, GeneZ said:

You have no idea what it feels, and sounds like, standing in a room and thinking you are at a live concert at the Fillmore East.  I am not going to argue with you about this. 

 

Is this a rock arena for amplified/PA'ed gigs? Off topic.

[STC]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

 

This is wrong. The most highly rated shoebox-shaped concert halls all produce lateral and ceiling reflections.

 

Unless you are talking about rock gig venues...which are out of the scope of this topic.

 

 Are you sure that’s my quote? Confused again and misquoting?

[semente]

45 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Only GUTB has listed what could be made better - the tiniest crack of light in an otherwise solid barrier ... .

 

Did he listen to your system?

[semente]

1 minute ago, STC said:

 

 Are you sure that’s my quote? Confused again and misquoting?

 

Don't blame me, it was the Forum SW...

[STC]

3 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Don't blame me, it was the Forum SW...

 

 So do the right thing. Retract and correct your post. @The Computer Audiophile , apparently Semente found a bug in the forum’s software. 

[semente]

5 hours ago, GeneZ said:

Back in 1968 very few Americans knew who Rod Stewart is.

 

That's because americans had never heard about football...

 

[semente]

 

5 hours ago, STC said:

Please listen to the Amused to Death and create the placement and ambience as described in the CD.

 

Amused to Death is an interesting exercise of spatial/ambience manipulation but it has very little realism in it (it's an effect). Which I think is what happens when you add "ambience-enhancement" (for want of a better word) to a stereo recording performed in a real reverberant space. And apparently I'm not the only one who feels like this.

 

4 hours ago, STC said:

the actual halls ambiance can be reconstructed with the 360 degrees of  impulse response of the concert hall.

 

I don't see how this can be done unless the recording was made in an anechoic chamber (i.e. Denon CD). A recording made in a reverberant space will have spatial information which need to be reproduced unprocessed to be accurately reconstructed.

[GeneZ]

7 hours ago, semente said:

 

This may be used against you. ?

 

 

Is this a rock arena for amplified/PA'ed gigs? Off topic.

 You are thinking 2018.   Back then we got to hear the hall acoustics in spades.

 

Not all audio salesmen and stores were the same.   Back then there were more independent shops.  If you wanted to do well you depended upon your reputation by word of mouth....  We saw the likes of Blood Sweat and Tears in the shop..Bobby Colomby one day demo'd for us the ways to use an equalizer that was on display. The drummer of Santana was also there a few times.  

 

This was in area where many smart people shopped audio who worked hard for their money...  And,  ultra expensive stuff was not yet marketed like we see today.  We sold a ton of Advent and EPI speakers... and higher end stuff for only those who knew what they were doing who bought those.  We would match systems to the people's needs and what they could afford.  I will admit though.. I saw one salesmen I would have spit upon. Not all were the same.  Back then a good audio salesman could treat you like family.  Today its mostly an impersonal corporate mentality.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

4 hours ago, semente said:

 

 

Amused to Death is an interesting exercise of spatial/ambience manipulation but it has very little realism in it (it's an effect). Which I think is what happens when you add "ambience-enhancement" (for want of a better word) to a stereo recording performed in a real reverberant space. And apparently I'm not the only one who feels like this.

 

 

I don't see how this can be done unless the recording was made in an anechoic chamber (i.e. Denon CD). A recording made in a reverberant space will have spatial information which need to be reproduced unprocessed to be accurately reconstructed.

We agree.  I walked out on an advance demo of Amused to Death conducted by the remastering team in Mch.  The field of crickets was good.  But, the rest was mediocre sonically and, dare I say it, musically.  

 

Probably the the main reason Mch, while huge for home theater, is not more popular for music is because it cannot do much for multitrack mixes from acoustically dead studios or PA equipped concert rock music.  Yes, it can do "artistic" but synthetic panning effects to surround channels.  But, that hardly makes it a must have.  The novelty of that artificial "surround" effect loses luster, as on Dark Side of the Moon, probably the top selling Mch SACD.   I must say, though, that the two Allman Brothers, Quad-era remasters from live concerts - At the Filmore East and Eat a Peach - are really pretty good at capturing the sense of live rock, though from a fairly close in perspective.  They are my favorite Mch rock albums.  Terrific music, too, while the great Duane Allman was still alive.

 

But, looking at the available Mch music recordings on hraudio.net, it is clear that there is relatively much less rock or other genres and a whole lot of classical.  Classical is already a small niche in the market and Mch a niche within the niche.  Yet, discretely recorded classical Mch persists because some dedicated labels with excellent engineering and the small niche audience remain steadfastly loyal to it.  

 

And, the reason, of course, is not gimmicks.  The reason is it captures and reproduces a more faithful replica of live, natural  concert hall sound than stereo through the added sonic information in the additional, carefully arrayed channels.  It captures the hall and its effects on the sound the audience hears, whereas stereo of necessity must truncate and discard much of it, as already discussed.

 

I also wish STC much success and enjoyment in his synthetically augmented 72 channel setup.  I have not heard it or anything like it, except for 14.2 channel, discretely recorded Auro 3D, which was impressive, but not sufficiently so to make me want to embrace it or to change my love affair with 5.1/7.1 Mch.  It simply was not compelling enough to me.

 

Also, the thought of, not to mention the budget for, even a fraction of 72 channels does not appeal.  I don't see why the natural ambiance of the hall as captured by surround mics is insufficient, or how or why we need to synthesize some fantasy in our heads of a more perfect hall than the real thing.  I have no doubt the effect is striking, even if not real.  But, rather than tinkering with the setup and DSP adjustment of such a system, I'd rather be listening to some beautiful 5.1/7.1 discrete recordings with very good reproduction of natural concert hall sound.

[GeneZ]

7 hours ago, semente said:

 

 

 

This is wrong. The most highly rated shoebox-shaped concert halls all produce lateral and ceiling reflections. Without them the orchestra would sound as if it was playing outdoors from three rows backwards...

 

Unless you are talking about rock gig venues, which are out of the scope of this topic.

  Your missing my point. Yes,  a good hall reflects sound plentifully.  But a good hall does not reflect 18000 hz from the back of the hall.  Upper midrange on down to the lowest is what those halls that make you feel good reflect.  It gives the band that nice warm deep sound,  while the high notes emanate from the stage in front of you.   I do not speaks of rock bands today who amplify everything.  They are too loud.  That's not music.  Its sacrifice ritual ceremonies designed to drown out the screams of those being sacrificed...  ?

[Fitzcaraldo215]

2 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

  Your missing my point. Yes,  a good hall reflects sound plentifully.  But a good hall does not reflect 18000 hz from the back of the hall.  Upper midrange on down to the lowest is what those halls that make you feel good reflect.  It gives the band that nice warm deep sound,  while the high notes emanate from the stage in front of you.   I do not speaks of rock bands today who amplify everything.  They are too loud.  That's not music.  Its sacrifice ritual ceremonies designed to drown out the screams of those being sacrificed...  ?

Yes, concentrating on halls without PA or other reinforcement, the sound fields in many good halls have been  measured at points out into the audience seating area.  There is HF rolloff of both the direct and reflected sound with increasing distance from the stage.  The sound increasingly is dominated by bass and midrange, giving a "warmer" sound that people have preferred over the ages. This is natural and desirable.  Good stereo recordings attempt to adjust for this by mixing in more hall sound along with EQ.  Discrete Mch recordings already include more of this warmer hall sound naturally.

[GeneZ]

8 hours ago, semente said:

 

This may be used against you. ?

 

 

 

It could.  But,  I also gained a treasure trove of knowledge from techs and reps.  Especially reps who were at it for a long time and remember the earlier years of the golden age of tubes. We were taught how to see trough marketing ploys of manufacturers!   We knew what sounded good.  For we had it all there to compare with.  When everyone was buying Kenwood and Sansui,  we got to hear Yamaha and Hitachi which we heard better sound from at that time.  We also got to hear Luxman and Bang and Olufsen.   I did not pay much heed to all that because by help from an engineer I had worked with I was already onto tubes in the 70's.  My friends ended up with refurbished used tube equipment.

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Yes, concentrating on halls without PA or other reinforcement, the sound fields in many good halls have been  measured at points out into the audience seating area.  There is HF rolloff of both the direct and reflected sound with increasing distance from the stage.  The sound increasingly is dominated by bass and midrange, giving a "warmer" sound that people have preferred over the ages. This is natural and desirable.  Good stereo recordings attempt to adjust for this by mixing in more hall sound along with EQ.  Discrete Mch recordings already include more of this warmer hall sound naturally.

 

Yet, an excellent digital time delay will recreate the hall sound and its effect as it appears in a hall for you.   You become engulfed like you experience in a concert hall.  The key is to eliminate electronic noise in the equipment.

[gmgraves]

14 hours ago, fas42 said:

They are not aware of the factors that I worry about

No, Frank. They don't CARE about the factors you obsess over. They turn their systems on, they put on a CD and the enjoy the music. 

 

[GeneZ]

59 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

No, Frank. They don't CARE about the factors you obsess over. They turn their systems on, they put on a CD and the enjoy the music. 

 

 Like you do?    What is your system?  Are all systems equal? 

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

No, Frank. They don't CARE about the factors you obsess over. They turn their systems on, they put on a CD and the enjoy the music. 

 

  

Something tells me that if you heard certain systems you would be stunned to find out what can be had.    I used to love listening to my Magnovox TT with speakers hinged to the case (stereo) back in the 60's.   Could listen to it for hours and enjoy.  My tastes changed.  Have yours? 

 

You might be in another realm of perception that does not require as much as another.  That's how you come across.  I have no idea how you really are other than ornery.   Quite ornery. 

 

  Its only audio. Its not as if your life depended on it.

[gmgraves]

3 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

 Like you do?    What is your system?  Are all systems equal? 

Yeah, pretty much. Except that most of my music (except for the SACD discs) has been ripped to computer, so I don't generally have to "put a CD on"

My playback system?  Krell KAV300i integrated amplifier (at the moment) or Harman Kardon HK990, Sony SCD- XA777ES SACD/CD deck, Logitech Squeezebox Touch music server client, Benchmark DAC3 DX (at the moment), Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, Schiit Asgard2 headphone amp, JA Michell GyroDec turntable, Jelco JA-750 arm, Grado Master V2 Statement cartridge, Sumiko BlackBird Cartridge, Project Reference phono preamp, 2 - Martin-Logan Vista speakers, 2 - Athena PC-3E Subwoofers, Headphones: HiFiMan HE-1000 v.2, HiFiMan Edition -X v.2, HiFiMan HE-560, HiFiMan HE-400s. Macintosh MacBOOK Pro with 1 TB SSD and 8 gigs of DRAM as a dedicated music system computer, 1- 30-Amp isolation transformer/mains filter.  I think that's everything.

Recording system: Korg MR-2000 desktop DSD recorder, Kong MR1 portable DSD recorder, Otari DTR-8S DAT recorder, Midas DM-16 mixer, Behringer 2222USB mixer, 2- Neumann U-87s, 1-Avantone CK-40 Stereo Multi-Pattern FET Microphone, 2- Behringer Pro-1B microphones. Stereo Pair of Behringer C2 "lipstick" mikes. 2- Røde NT1 microphones, approximately 1200 ft of XLR microphone cable Mostly hand-made using Belden cable and various lengths of Mogami Microphone cable. 1 Pair of Koss PRo-4A isolating monitoring headphones. Assorted euro-stands one Atlas boom stand (for the Avantone Stereo microphone) and various accessories like cable testers, oscillators, transformer matrix system for MS miking. Etc. MacBOOK Pro with Audacity.

No, not all systems are equal! Mine is super revealing and extremely accurate in that my own recordings sound, on my, system as I remember hearing them at the recording venue.  Neither my playback nor my recording system have any "mouse milk" products. No boutique interconnect cables, no fancy big-as-a-baby's arm mains cords, not "audiophile fuses", no fancy XLR cables from Kimber, AudioQuest, Nordost, Crystal et al., no speaker cable elevators, no myrtle-wood blocks on top of amplifiers no cryogenically treated clocks plugged into my mains, 

 

 

 

[Jud]

9 hours ago, semente said:

 

 

 

This is wrong. The most highly rated shoebox-shaped concert halls all produce lateral and ceiling reflections. Without them the orchestra would sound as if it was playing outdoors from three rows backwards...

 

Unless you are talking about rock gig venues, which are out of the scope of this topic.

 

Yes, though of course you want to control the amount and direction of reflection, so it doesn't start sounding like an indoor swimming pool.  

 

What I call "The Attack of the 75 Foot Piano" I think usually occurs as a result of a multi-miked recording, where you combine a mic for a particular instrument with other mics that pick up the overall sound of the orchestra, then mix them so the horizontal spread of both is equal.

[gmgraves]

58 minutes ago, GeneZ said:

Something tells me that if you heard certain systems you would be stunned to find out what can be had.    I used to love listening to my Magnovox TT with speakers hinged to the case (stereo) back in the 60's.   Could listen to it for hours and enjoy.  My tastes changed.  Have yours? 

My tastes have evolved. I want (and have) an accurate system. One that makes my recordings sound like they did when I captured them.

 

I have heard "certain systems" and I'm not stunned. The only system that has ever stunned me is one owned by an 85 year old guy I know. He has two huge cabinets in his listening room each of which houses FOUR fifteen-inch Altec Lansing woofers in them. I have NEVER before or since heard an audio system load a room with bass that powerful or that deep. A pipe organ's 32 foot diapason make the whole house shake, hit the listener in the pit of his/her stomach and moves things in the room! The rest of his system? Altec 500 Hz treble horns. So, simply awful. But boy what bass! 

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Yes, though of course you want to control the amount and direction of reflection, so it doesn't start sounding like an indoor swimming pool.  

 

What I call "The Attack of the 75 Foot Piano" I think usually occurs as a result of a multi-miked recording, where you combine a mic for a particular instrument with other mics that pick up the overall sound of the orchestra, then mix them so the horizontal spread of both is equal.

You got that right! Seems to me that most recordists these days aren't satisfied placing a microphone in front of the piano about 7-10 ft facing the open lid of a grand piano. NO, they have to put three or four mikes on a compression-pole (like on a pole lamp) and compress the thing inside the piano with he mikes spanning the strings from the bass end to the treble end then they pan those three or four mikes to the left for the bass end , the phantom middle channel for the middle strings and the treble strings are panned into the right channel. The result? Wall-to-wall piano so closely miked as to eliminate any sense of reality! Yeah, I always listen to a piano with my head stuck under the piano's lid, don't you? Doesn't everybody? GAD, do I hate that. Try Mario Martinez' recording of Angel Cabrera Playing Debussy if you want to hear a REAL sounding concert grand piano recorded correctly (the music's great too). 

http://www.playclassics.com/album6

 

 

[GeneZ]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Yeah, pretty much. Except that most of my music (except for the SACD discs) has been ripped to computer, so I don't generally have to "put a CD on"

My playback system?  Krell KAV300i integrated amplifier (at the moment) or Harman Kardon HK990, Sony SCD- XA777ES SACD/CD deck, Logitech Squeezebox Touch music server client, Benchmark DAC3 DX (at the moment), Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, Schiit Asgard2 headphone amp, JA Michell GyroDec turntable, Jelco JA-750 arm, Grado Master V2 Statement cartridge, Sumiko BlackBird Cartridge, Project Reference phono preamp, 2 - Martin-Logan Vista speakers, 2 - Athena PC-3E Subwoofers, Headphones: HiFiMan HE-1000 v.2, HiFiMan Edition -X v.2, HiFiMan HE-560, HiFiMan HE-400s. Macintosh MacBOOK Pro with 1 TB SSD and 8 gigs of DRAM as a dedicated music system computer, 1- 30-Amp isolation transformer/mains filter.  I think that's everything.

Recording system: Korg MR-2000 desktop DSD recorder, Kong MR1 portable DSD recorder, Otari DTR-8S DAT recorder, Midas DM-16 mixer, Behringer 2222USB mixer, 2- Neumann U-87s, 1-Avantone CK-40 Stereo Multi-Pattern FET Microphone, 2- Behringer Pro-1B microphones. Stereo Pair of Behringer C2 "lipstick" mikes. 2- Røde NT1 microphones, approximately 1200 ft of XLR microphone cable Mostly hand-made using Belden cable and various lengths of Mogami Microphone cable. 1 Pair of Koss PRo-4A isolating monitoring headphones. Assorted euro-stands one Atlas boom stand (for the Avantone Stereo microphone) and various accessories like cable testers, oscillators, transformer matrix system for MS miking. Etc. MacBOOK Pro with Audacity.

No, not all systems are equal! Mine is super revealing and extremely accurate in that my own recordings sound, on my, system as I remember hearing them at the recording venue.  Neither my playback nor my recording system have any "mouse milk" products. No boutique interconnect cables, no fancy big-as-a-baby's arm mains cords, not "audiophile fuses", no fancy XLR cables from Kimber, AudioQuest, Nordost, Crystal et al., no speaker cable elevators, no myrtle-wood blocks on top of amplifiers no cryogenically treated clocks plugged into my mains, 

 

 

 

OK got it.  Classic equipment... but lousy interconnects?     Ever drive a Mercedes AMG or  BMW3 on store brand tires?    It would be foolish,  wouldn't it.

 

You do not need any big a__ power cords like some push.  Here is all you need.

Someone in the business feels your pain.  Here!  http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/pangea_ac9_ac14.htm

 

As far as balanced cables?  Speaker cables?   Phono cables?     There is only one I know of that gives you an objective difference you will hear instantly.. and with a neutral sound.  WyWires uses type 2 litz.  Simple.   Save money and get the Blue cables. 

 

Do not get the fuses first. Get cables first that will let you hear a difference.  I find that Litz gets the signal from point A to point B with the least harm.  Sounds much more like real music if your system can.

 

A rather expensive system like you have?   The cables should be pennies in comparison.   It does not make any sense.  You are holding back the greatness of what you have based on some stubborn principle?   I would not buy those 200 fuses neither.  I paid 59.00 for what sounds fantastic.  https://www.vhaudio.com/hifi-tuning.html     You will not need better.

 

If you are going to ever try fuses?   Get better cables first!   I found that litz wire locks in focus that regular stranded cable defuses.... and solid core that tries to do what litz offers can not give you in the mid and high end as effortlessly.   I tried them.  I heard.  Your system without excellent "transfer" cables is being held back in a big way. 

 

It all began with me around 1985 when a local designer modder cut off from a big roll some litz cable for my speakers. Its about 12 awg.  I went out and bought a solder pot and prepped them myself.  Looks like crap, but nothing else I have tried gives the same realistic and accurate sound. 

 

Here is a picture of my topless desktop when stripped down... look behind the speakers for what looks like plain cheap cord running over to the components.   Click on several times to blow up its size.  Looks like crap. Right?  But sounds wonderfully truthful.

 

Looks do not impress me when I can get sound like litz can uniquely give.  Don't try to use litz as a tone control. They are as neutral as I have ever heard.  Its why I went with WyWires for my balanced cables.   Same simple truthfulness in signal transfer.  I found some used ... scapped them right up!   Entry level Blue version.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

You got that right! Seems to me that most recordists these days aren't satisfied placing a microphone in front of the piano about 7-10 ft facing the open lid of a grand piano. NO, they have to put three or four mikes on a compression-pole (like on a pole lamp) and compress the thing inside the piano with he mikes spanning the strings from the bass end to the treble end then they pan those three or four mikes to the left for the bass end , the phantom middle channel for the middle strings and the treble strings are panned into the right channel. The result? Wall-to-wall piano so closely miked as to eliminate any sense of reality! Yeah, I always listen to a piano with my head stuck under the piano's lid, don't you? Doesn't everybody? GAD, do I hate that. Try Mario Martinez' recording of Angel Cabrera Playing Debussy if you want to hear a REAL sounding concert grand piano recorded correctly (the music's great too). 

http://www.playclassics.com/album6

 

 

 

I have that recording, and it's excellent.

[mansr]

3 hours ago, GeneZ said:

I also gained a treasure trove of knowledge from techs and reps.  Especially reps who were at it for a long time and remember the earlier years of the golden age of tubes. We were taught how to see trough marketing ploys of manufacturers!

ROTFL!

 

Quote

We also got to hear Luxman and Bang and Olufsen.

B&O stuff generally has a very sleek exterior. The interior is another story. Among the messiest I've seen. Like who the hell places the mains transformer on the opposite side from the power lead entry point? And then runs the AC wires not in a straight line, but all the way around the main circuit boards, right past the most sensitive parts.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

3 hours ago, GeneZ said:

 

Yet, an excellent digital time delay will recreate the hall sound and its effect as it appears in a hall for you.   You become engulfed like you experience in a concert hall.  The key is to eliminate electronic noise in the equipment.

Well, I have tried a great many forms of synthesis and upmixing from stereo to Mch over the years.  Some are not bad, but all fall considerably short of discretely recorded Mch in recreating a replica of concert hall sound.  So, that is what I collect and listen to.  When I occasionally listen to stereo source material, I listen in 2.1 using my sub,  not upmixed.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

9 minutes ago, mansr said:

ROTFL!

 

B&O stuff generally has a very sleek exterior. The interior is another story. Among the messiest I've seen. Like who the hell places the mains transformer on the opposite side from the power lead entry point? And then runs the AC wires not in a straight line, but all the way around the main circuit boards, right past the most sensitive parts.

Hey, doesn't that result in a better rendition of concert hall sound?