Why!? Please Tell Me Why!

[gmgraves]

On 4/16/2018 at 4:29 PM, Ralf11 said:

it's at least a year old

 

the purpose is to separate money from wallets

Similar cables are far older than that. I remember once going to a Martin -Logan dog-and-pony show at a local dealer some 15 years ago. They were showing off their then top-of-the-line speakers powering them with a pair of Classe mono block amplifiers each the size of one of those small office refrigerators. They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.

 

Electronics technology is a big part of all of our lives, and I understand that most people don't know squat about it, and don't need to know anything about the technology to use the products. But I know of no other field other than audio where manufacturers take such blatant advantage of customer's ignorance to sell them useless products at inflated prices (Oh the car after market used to be a little like that. Remember 'Fire Injector' spark plugs?). I mean nobody sells TV cables as big as a baby's arm from the cable port in the wall to bring-in better signal. Nobody sells cable elevators for one's computer system or spikes to adhere to the bottom of one's desktop. So what is it about audio that stamps a big sign across our foreheads that says "Sucker!"? 

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

Simple George. It's called more money than brains.

I'd like to say that there is more to it than that, but I guess you're right. But that doesn't explain why we get the snake-oil products and videophiles, computerphiles and car-crazy's do not. I've been to SEMA Las Vegas before and yeah, they're lots of automobile after-market products (SEMA is at least as big as CES and a lot bigger than COMDEX) but none of it is on the order of Green Pens, cables the size of a 2-year old's leg and cost as much as a small car, and other products of dubious practical application or worth... 

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, Albrecht said:

 

Of course what you are saying is completely untrue. Can you give some specific examples of cables that are "useless?" In most all cases, - speakers are not wireless, and even if there are wireless speaker systems, - there is still a cable that's needed from the wireless receiver. So those cables do have a "use."

Can you also give some specific examples of "inflated prices?" I would assume that you'd need to know the precise cost of the wire, and shielding, then of course the packaging that it's in, and accounting for the 40% dealer mark-up, deduce the percentage of mark-up based on the retail price vs the cost to build.

""They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.""

I would hazard that very few people who are interested in higher performing audio equipment could GAF about what your idiosyncratic opinions are about what is "ridiculous."

I don't wish to get into an argument here, but do you have any idea what you are talking about? Can you even read a sentence without applying your own peculiar bias to that sentences meaning? It certainly doesn't seem so. What the F  could a speaker cable that big do that an equal run of 12 gauge, 259 stand, oxygen-free, linear crystal copper can't? I hope you're not going to try to say that it has less resistance? Or that something impossible like "skin-effect" is occurring at audio frequencies? There is simply no reason (other than ostentation) for a speaker cable to be the size of an anaconda! That's what's ridiculous. That sized cable serves no useful purpose. NOBODY, Least of all me, is saying that cable, in and of itself is useless. We were discussing a particular cable (did you not see the photo? It's been posted in this thread enough!) and ITS size is what is useless! 

Learn to read and follow a discussion. You won't end up with egg all over your face so much!  

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

most expensive speaker cables are useless, overpriced junk, whose manufacturers are snake-oil-bamboozlers

 

don't believe it??

 

do a DBT listening test

 

 

You bet! And I note here that you used the word "most", because there are clearly instances where speaker cables can make a difference between a speaker sounding it's best and not quite making the grade. I have always had this opinion, going back at least 30 years. Read my review, in Stereophile, of the Apogee Duetta II ribbon Speaker.

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/apogee-duetta-ii-loudspeaker-george-graves

 

This was written in 1986, and even then I was starting to notice that speaker cables can sometimes make a difference. I put it down to the interface between amplifier and speaker, not the just the speaker itself, but I hadn't come to that conclusion then. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Speedskater said:

The Apogee's may place the greatest demands on speaker cables and power amplifiers of all the good speakers ever made.

That's the way it seemed. What was funny was that the cable Apogee sent me was Swedish, made by a company called Symo. It looked very similar to the cheap monster stuff with the slightly skin colored transparent plastic insulation. The wire itself was wound tighter, but still, it reminded me of the 12 Ga monster stuff. It did not sound like it though! 

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

As I've mentioned many times, the speakers disappearing means that even if one listens with one's ear only inches from a cone driver, of one from a pair of stereo speakers, that the soundfield doesn't collapse - you hear "through the speaker". People achieve this type of behaviour from panel speakers, but the conventional dynamic speaker also enables this - it's just harder, that's all.

Either you aren't explaining this phenomenon very well, or you're talking through your hat again, Frank. Because under no circumstances can you put your ear inches away from one speaker in a stereo pair and still hear both speakers with a perfect stereo sound field. All you're gonna hear is that speaker dominating.

That's like saying that you can sit in front of a band with your ear inches from the first trumpet and still hear all the other instruments in perfect balance. Not in this galaxy!

[gmgraves]

38 minutes ago, beancounter said:

 

Gee, you didn't happen to sit in front of me in the double reeds section, did you?

Could be. I get around!

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, fas42 said:

Remarkably, the ear/brain compensates for the "strange" aural situation, and reconstructs what it considers to be the correct 'meaning' of all the sound it hears

Maybe your ear/brain does this but I guarantee you that mine doesn't and from other responses you've received, I dare say that very few others' ear/brain can do that either!

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Weren't they bad for your health? The ionised air thing ...

 

In the end, what counts are the air vibrations that impact on one's body, specifically the ears. How they were generated is up to the consumer ...

Yes, plasma speakers produce ozone if they work in air. It is possible to build a plasma speaker that ionizes an inert gas and not make ozone (which is poisonous). In the mid 1950s - before stereo, there used to be one on the market called the "Ionovac" tweeter. It was somewhat impractical because you needed to buy a big cylinder of whatever gas (I forget) it used and of course, depending upon how much you listened to it, would determine how fast you would go through a cylinder. It became really impractical when stereo came in...

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Lots of people like to listen while relaxing with a cigar...

I used to love a good cigar. The idea of it is appealing to me yet... I quit smoking cigars mostly because they stank-up my house and my clothes. I didn't inhale cigar smoke, so I wasn't so worried about the health aspects as I only smoked  a couple of cigars a week and never smoked cigarettes. The smell of stale cigar smoke put me off. Haven't had one in 30 years. Used to love Tabacalaras from the Philippines. That Cagayan tobacco from Luzon made a really flavorful cigar.  

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

I described it exactly ... you see, if there was a trumpet in the recording it wouldn't be located adjacent to the microphone on that side - yes, there can always be extremes in how things are recorded, but the normal idea of a recording is to 'place' the parts of the mix in reasonable positions in the whole - and that's what one hears in the "sweet spot" of a decent rig. The difference I talk of is that the sweet spot never disappears, no matter how absurd the listening position is; it never "pops out" of the 'holographic' presentation, no matter where you are in the room.

A lot of people on this thread would disagree with you when you say that you described your phenomenon exactly.  I for one have no idea what you're talking about, Frank.

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, beancounter said:

 

Plasmatronics was a late '70's / early '80's speaker with helium tanks.  I heard a pair back then.  Not special enough for the fuss.

 

I think Acapella in Germany still makes a horn loaded plasma tweeter (no gas tanks).  And there's always DIY, they're not all that complicated.

Yes, they are fairly simple (no moving parts). I heard the Acapellas at the San Francisco Dagogo Audio show several years ago. You are right, they did have an plasma tweeter and I seem to recall that they mentioned that they had some proprietary method of keeping the ionized ozone from mixing with the room air. And you are right again when you say that plasma tweeters aren't worth the fuss. Theoretically, they should be next to perfect because they are massless. The reality is that for all intents and purposes, today's low mass tweeters, ribbons, ESLs, beryllium, diamond, etc., the difference between massless and extremely low mass doesn't really make enough (any?) audible difference.  

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, phosphorein said:

 

I recall that they were tempermental and not reliable. Also they emitted significant rf into the vicinity of the speaker, so induced electrical noise could be a problem.

I don't doubt that in the least. Essentially such a device would be a spark-gap transmitter! 

[gmgraves]

57 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I hear exactly the same as you and everyone else does with conventional quality playback - which means all other systems; and my own, when in non-optimised state. It's all about pushing the quality above a critical level - think nuclear reactions, which require a "critical mass" before the exciting stuff happens ...

We've been through this before. The things you say you hear from your system are so far out in the twilight zone as to be not possible - as in outside the realm of known physics. If you indeed are hearing these things that you say you hear, Frank, then indeed your hearing is different ad in delusional!

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

This is a switch in the brain - it's as reliable and predictable as anything human can be; it's always worked, for me, over 30 years - but only if I go to a lot of time and effort to optimise a rig at that moment to get to this quality level! This can be irritatingly time consuming, and a nuisance with respect to other electrical needs in the house - but can be done as needed, "to prove the point".

This is a switch in YOUR brain. The rest of us have to buy new, better, speakers or a new DAC or a new amp to click that switch. It doesn't click by dressing cables or soldering interconnects from component to component, or putting cable lifts under speaker cables. It just doesn't. I have a fine system, but on it lousy recordings sound lousy, and if I put my ear up close to one of my speakers, that's all I hear, is the speaker I'm standing in front of. Since I have Martin-Logan ESLs, I will say that they have better horizontal dispersion than many speakers and do throw a wide stereo image, but not THAT wide!

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

A simple example: a piano is being played, some nice Beethoven sonata say; it's midway between the speakers, about five feet back from the plane of the speakers. I can "see" the piano there, I can point to precisely where it's located - its physical presence is, to use a spectacular term , palpable.

 

Now, I can go to anywhere in the room, in front of the line of the speakers, and every aspect of the sense of that piano never varies, it just stays there, as a "pointable to" object ... just like the real thing, in fact ... .

Any stereo system will do that if the speakers are arrayed properly!

[gmgraves]

31 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Why are you equating tv and computers to hi end audio? Have you heard accessories like spike supports make a significant improvement in SQ in a hi end audio system? If your hearing cant pick up these improvements, what gives you the right to criticize those like @Albrecht who can hear improvements and are prepared to pay for them.

I wish some of you guys would think about what you read before you jump to respond. I know, I'm guilty too. I sometimes do that and realize later that I misunderstood the point the poster was trying to make because I hadn't been following the thread all that closely!

I am not equating cars, computers, and video to high-end audio. What I am equating is the fact that all of these are consumer-based interests or hobbies, and that out of these, only high-end audio seems to have been singled-out for snake-oil salesmen and other charlatans to fill the market with expensive junk: Green pens, vinyl record de-magnetizers, speaker cable elevators, and "treated digital clocks". In other words there seems to be no parallels in other hobbies (that I'm aware of) for useless and usually expensive "accessories" like there are for high-end audio, and I was just musing on what it is about this hobby that allows purveyors of such junk to flourish rather than rot in prison for out and out fraud. And I wasn't criticizing Albrecht or any one else. It was just a hypothetical question to which I did not expect an answer.    

[gmgraves]

44 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Yes, we have. The 'magic' is supplied by the brain, by having enough, clean data to unravel what's going on in the projected sound field - it goes hand in hand with what most people would recognise high quality playback to be like; you get the best of both worlds!

There is no "Magic", Frank. That's where you are delusional. Either the equipment performs or it doesn't. It either sounds good or it doesn't. Tweak till your heart's content and sure there are things about a system that can be improved by dressing cables and insuring gas-tight connections and the like, but nothing like what you assert constantly in every thread!

 

47 minutes ago, fas42 said:

I've listened to many of the 'finest' speakers out there, and they all fail the test - not because anything is wrong with them, but they're being fed with a signal that's below par - the low level detail in the sound is too compromised, and the brain can't sort it.

 

Absolute nonsense!

 

48 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The dispersion is not the problem; it's the quality of the direct sound that has to be of a certain standard - get that right, and one's brain does the rest.

 

Do you hear voices in your brain as well?

 

48 minutes ago, fas42 said:

As I have said many times, there are always going to be people who won't hear this illusion - but I haven't come across anyone yet who doesn't pick that there something special about the sound. The audio friend down the road has yet to achieve fully disappearing speakers, but he gets mighty close - it's just a matter of getting the last piece of the setup right. His wife has no trouble picking when it's in the zone; last visit, she popped in and commented how it was sending out the right signals, from outside - this means that it was loud, but very comfortable to listen to.

You are right, there are going to be people who won't hear this delusion.  Most people won't hear it because it doesn't exist outside of your imagination!

[gmgraves]

44 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

If one has a DIY bent then one can trial these sort of things with bits and pieces around the house - or from the local hardware store. I have never used anything "expensive" to date, because it's completely unnecessary - it's all about getting the little details right, the things that are overlooked in the excitement of having pricey objects to play with.

That has nothing to do with Rexp's post to me or my response to him.  A complete Non Sequitur, Frank!

[gmgraves]

21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

So, you can listen from a position that's left of the left hand speaker, and still see that piano?

If the piano was properly miked, yes. Mario Martinez' PlayClassics piano recordings are an excellent example of that. They are true stereo recordings. My couch is to the left of my left speaker. I can sit on that couch and get a fairly decent stereo image, but I'm not right up against that left speaker either. If I were, I'd hear only or at least mostly that speaker, because that's how almost all speakers work. Maybe MBL's Reference 101E Radialstrahler would still give a decent stereo image when the listener is inches from one speaker or the other because they are truly omnidirectional. But most speakers are one directional or, if they are di-polar's, then they might be two directional. 

[gmgraves]

3 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Must be Conspiracy!

I doubt that. It's the same reason that the wolf keeps hitting the same herd of sheep, every night; the one that doesn't have a sheepdog on watch. Easy pickings, low hanging fruit, etc. 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

No worries, George. Like that man who lives in a big White House in Washington, D.C., some people have their own separate reality.

I wouldn't go so far as to equate Frank with the lunatic that lives in the big White House in Washington D.C.! Frank is just delusional about sound reproduction, the guy in D.C. is crazy.

 

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, Rexp said:

  On 19/04/2018 at 4:05 AM, Albrecht said:

 

Of course what you are saying is completely untrue. Can you give some specific examples of cables that are "useless?" In most all cases, - speakers are not wireless, and even if there are wireless speaker systems, - there is still a cable that's needed from the wireless receiver. So those cables do have a "use."

Can you also give some specific examples of "inflated prices?" I would assume that you'd need to know the precise cost of the wire, and shielding, then of course the packaging that it's in, and accounting for the 40% dealer mark-up, deduce the percentage of mark-up based on the retail price vs the cost to build.

""They were connected to the speakers with cables very much like those in the picture. I thought it was ridiculous then and I think it's ridiculous now.""

I would hazard that very few people who are interested in higher performing audio equipment could GAF about what your idiosyncratic opinions are about what is "ridiculous."

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I don't wish to get into an argument here, but do you have any idea what you are talking about? Can you even read a sentence without applying your own peculiar bias to that sentences meaning? It certainly doesn't seem so. What the F  could a speaker cable that big do that an equal run of 12 gauge, 259 stand, oxygen-free, linear crystal copper can't? I hope you're not going to try to say that it has less resistance? Or that something impossible like "skin-effect" is occurring at audio frequencies? There is simply no reason (other than ostentation) for a speaker cable to be the size of an anaconda! That's what's ridiculous. That sized cable serves no useful purpose. NOBODY, Least of all me, is saying that cable, in and of itself is useless. We were discussing a particular cable (did you not see the photo? It's been posted in this thread enough!) and ITS size is what is useless! 

Learn to read and follow a discussion. You won't end up with egg all over your face so much!  

 

 

I've reposted one of your responses to @Albrecht who has only sought to defend genuine Audiophiles against Anti Audiophiles. How would you describe your response, critical, insulting or?

He did the same thing you did. He missed the point of my former post. He assumed that I was talking about all cables, when several of us were just discussing one particular cable; a ridiculous speaker cable the size of an anaconda snake and the cost of a small car. And he wasn't defending anything except his misunderstanding of the entire thread up to that point. And who are you to decide who is a "genuine audiophile" and who is an "anti-audiophile" ? You haven't leave to make that determination for anybody!

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, Rexp said:

I would describe an Anti Audiophile as someone who dismisses the possibility that cables like ones featured can have a positive impact on SQ. As i've stated, ofcouse there are snakeoil products out there, people who buy them have been duped and its a stain on some in the hifi industry but not all are guilty.

What you would consider an "anti-audiophile" and reality don't seem to have even a nodding acquaintance. An audiophile is someone who is interested in the reproduction of music in the home. It has nothing to do whether or not such a person is likely to fall for pseudo-science. Any person who spends a good portion of his disposable income in the pursuit of good and accurate sound, is by definition an audiophile. Just because a person happens to have a degree is electronics, physics, and/or acoustics, and therefore knows better than to fall for every bottle of snake-oil that comes on sale does not disqualify them from being audiophiles. And even if it did, It's not up to you to drive wedges in this community by fostering an "us vs. them" mentality here. 

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

And yet again you show that you do understand what can happen - you need to realise that what I'm talking about is a natural extension of what your brain has done, for that "special" recording. And you also mention a "special" speaker, the MBLs. Both of these factors have enhanced the quality of the playback, so that your brain has been able to grok it.

I do understand what is going on, sure, but it's not what you say it is. My brain. like anyone else's brain processes what it hears. What it does not do is create what isn't there!

 

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

How the speakers work is only a small part of the overall requirements to enable this illusion - the level of competence of the whole is the most critical factor .. you see, I went and heard the most expensive MBL system possible, about 15 years ago, and thought, Well done! That's presenting a soundstage as good as the bottom of the line bookshelf B&Ws delivered to me, 15 years earlier - they are learning!

 

B&Ws are not omnidirectional. and weren't 15 years ago either. 

 

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

If you keep trying to insinuate that I talking about something bizarre, it might make some of the people here happy - but you're missing a chance of getting a better handle on things ... the industry is not being ruined  by scammers and robbers, but by consumers being obsessed about being thrilled with shiny, expensive and impressive bits of kit - the show off factor.

The way you describe it, based upon your oft touted (but mostly unexplained) "methodology" it does sound bizarre.

[gmgraves]

3 hours ago, accwai said:

 

Hmm... Streets around here are filled with jaw droppingly expensive cars. Nissan GT-R are everywhere. A few weeks back, I was parked next a Lamborghini Aventador that's like almost $1/2M. Then two days ago, I was side by side with a Lamborghini Huracán at a traffic light. I think it's the "cheap" two wheel drive V8 version. But still, top of the driver's head is like at my eye level. That's surreal And two days before that, there was a McLaren coming onto a nearby main avenue from a neighborhood that I normally avoid because potholes are all over the place in there. Must be even rougher for something like McLaren. If these cars are consumer based to you, you're living in a very different world than mine. But hey, it's a big world. No matter where one stands, there will almost always be somebody way above that.

 

As for throwing those responsible in jail, sure! Performance for these cars are so far above what's needed for mass transportation that these cars would have no other purpose than to pull dangerous stunts on public roads. People who make, push and buy this stuff should rot in prison for out and out illegal sh$^%#$!t. And not just cars. Wine and art have been pointed out here at CA not long ago. And obviously camera stuff too. These elitist counter-revolutionaries must be nipped in the bud now!

I think I write clearly. I'm reasonably literate, yet I write things and people answer with responses that have nothing whatsoever to do with my post. Take this one for instance. I'm talking about how high-end audio accessories have no seeming parallel in other hobbies like cars, video and computers, and "accwai" comes back with how many super and hyper cars he sees in his local! To put that in perspective, it's like me talking about vinyl record "demagnetizers" being useless mouse-milk, and "accwai" coming back with some anecdote about a dCS Vivaldi DAC. Makes no sense.

I mention that those people making and selling these snake-oil audio products should be in jail rather than enjoying the fruits of their ill-gotten-gains, and "accwai" responds with an agreement that people who make Lamborghinis, McLarens, and other high-end automobiles should be in jail. When that's not what I said, intimated or or even contemplated at all! That's like saying that the people who make DartZeel, D'agostino, Pass, and other ultra high-end audio gear should likewise be jailed! Makes no sense.