A crowd funded motherboard(s) for audiophiles - Part 2

[Lebouwsky]

4 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Guess I missed the memo. I do see/have used now the ability for the OP to edit first note at any time. so hurrah!

Are you going to pick up the role as project leader Davide?

[davide256]

2 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

Are you going to pick up the role as project leader Davide?

@lmitche owns this thread and I'm just an interested party. A critical communication in the development ideation process is  a regular interval current summary "heres what we know now and where we are headed at this point"... keeps everyone on the same page and minimizes rediscovering the wheel. Would love to see a dated summary or what next analysis is needed to finalize requirements.

[lateboomer]

I would like to ask could better SQ be had by using one Startech 2-port 3.1 gen2 card for this Supermicro X10SBA mobo and move the SATA ssd (os + music) and ethernet (not for streaming, only control) to the card? Then I can totally disable SATA port and Lan port together. Rickca had advised the Supermicro's pcie x 2 gen2.0 doesn't support pcie x 4 for Startech 4-port 3.1 card, but Amazon's Q&A section says this 2-port card can run at pcie x 2 with scale down performance.

[rickca]

Deleted

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lateboomer said:

Amazon's Q&A section says this 2-port card can run at pcie x 2 with scale down performance.

What 2-port card are you talking about?  

 

Here's what Startech says:

 

Due to the bandwidth requirements of USB 3.1 gen 2 (10Gbps), none of our USB 3.1 gen 2 cards can use a PCIe x1 slot. They require at least a PCIe x4 slot to function. You can use a USB 3.1 gen 1 card (5Gbps) with a PCIe x1 slot however.

 

So you could get a 5Gbps card and put it in your x2 slot.

 

For PEXUSB3S24 Startech card, it says

The maximum throughput of this card is limited by the bus interface.  If used with PCI Express Gen 2.0 enabled computers, the max throughput is 5 Gbps.

 

 

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lateboomer said:

I would like to ask could better SQ be had by using one Startech 2-port 3.1 gen2 card for this Supermicro X10SBA mobo and move the SATA ssd (os + music) and ethernet (not for streaming, only control) to the card? Then I can totally disable SATA port and Lan port together.

I don't know why you would want to do this.  I use the Startech card on an ATX motherboard to get USB ports from a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU rather than the chipset.  You don't have a separate chipset on your X10SBA.  So I really don't know whether what you're proposing would result in better SQ.

[lateboomer]

50 minutes ago, rickca said:

I don't know why you would want to do this.  I use the Startech card on an ATX motherboard to get USB ports from a PCIe slot that is directly connected to the CPU rather than the chipset.  You don't have a separate chipset on your X10SBA.  So I really don't know whether what you're proposing would result in better SQ.

 

Thank you for the info, I am referring to this card:

https://www.amazon.com/Startech-Com-PEXUSB312A-10Gbps-Green-Stainless/dp/B013HT6K3Q

 

The Supermicro mobo has one pcie x2 (in x8) slot so at least it can accommodate this card. I am thinking if I can shift both SATA and LAN to the usb card, it will cut down the electronics activities on the mobo to minimum which is ideal. Lmitche thinks all ssd have some sort of glare in sounding and more noisy, so he prefers HDD. So may be I could test out the usb HDD or usb SSD with this card to minimize noise passes to mobo. 

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, lateboomer said:

 

Thank you for the info, I am referring to this card:

https://www.amazon.com/Startech-Com-PEXUSB312A-10Gbps-Green-Stainless/dp/B013HT6K3Q

 

The Supermicro mobo has one pcie x2 (in x8) slot so at least it can accommodate this card. I am thinking if I can shift both SATA and LAN to the usb card, it will cut down the electronics activities on the mobo to minimum which is ideal. Lmitche thinks all ssd have some sort of glare in sounding and more noisy, so he prefers HDD. So may be I could test out the usb HDD or usb SSD with this card to minimize noise passes to mobo. 

For two ports, this is the one you want: https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-3.0/Cards/2-port-usb-3-1-card~PEXUSB312A2

 

There is a 4 port model as well that is twice the two port model on one card. 

 

You can power both externally. I use a lps-1 at 7 volts followed by two 1 amp lt3045s at 6 and 5 volts. The USB NIC, HDD and DAC are all connected to this card.

 

Make sure to load the Startech (Asmedia) driver.

[lateboomer]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

For two ports, this is the one you want: https://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/USB-3.0/Cards/2-port-usb-3-1-card~PEXUSB312A2

 

There is a 4 port model as well that is twice the two port model on one card. 

 

You can power both externally. I use a lps-1 at 7 volts followed by two 1 amp lt3045s at 6 and 5 volts. The USB NIC, HDD and DAC are all connected to this card.

 

Make sure to load the Startech (Asmedia) driver.

Since Supermicro can only do pcie x2 gen2.0 at max 5Gb/s, then 4-port card is not much use and then for 2-port card I could only either shift dac or Lan connection from mobo to this card?

 

If I stick with Daphile Linux player, I don't think the Asmedia driver is needed, am I right?

[lmitche]

Yesterday the polls ended on Part 1 and 2 of this exercise.  Here is my interpretation of the results. No doubt others will have a different interpretation.

 

69* people voted in Part 1
52* people voted in Part 2

 

* the forum poll shows more votes, but summing up the member names yields 69 and 52 distinct names

 

In Part 1 43% of people would like a project to build a low power custom motherboard,  followed by 39% for medium power and 17% for high power.

 

In Part 2 60% of people would like a project to build a MATX custom motherboard, followed by 35% for ITX and 6% for ATX.

 

Curiously only 35 people voted in part 1 and 2, and of these the majority 46% voted for a medium power MATX custom motherboard.

 

Here are the counts and percentages for ALL respondents and those that responded in BOTH parts.

 

           LOW     MED     HIGH    BOTH    ALL
ITX         7          1             2          10        18
MATX    6        16             1          23        31
ATX        0          0             2            2           3
BOTH   13       17             5          35         52
ALL       30       27           12         69

 

            LOW    MED     HIGH    BOTH    ALL
ITX        20%      3%        6%        29%     35%
MATX   17%    46%        3%        66%     60%
ATX         0%      0%        6%           6%       6%
BOTH    37%    49%     14%      100%    100%
ALL        43%    39%     17%      100%

 

There are clearly three camps, with the majority in the Low power camp, split 1:2 between ITX and MATX boards.
Close behind is the Medium power, MATX camp, which was the winning camp of those that responded to both polls.
Lastly the High power camp is split across all three form factors.

 

Personally, I am not surprised with these results.

 

Going forward the poll suggests that there are two efforts:

1) a custom Low power SOC motherboard
2) a custom Medium, and potentially High power camp
Both using MATX motherboards, even though despite the poll, I suspect mini-ITX is the practical choice for SOC motherboards.

My hope is that we will see a mainstream 90 watt processor with enough power for polysinc-xtr in this next round of releases.  We are very close today.

 

If someone wants to volunteer and start a new thread for the low power camp, go for it.  I am not interested and will not be participating.

 

I am happy to lead the medium and high power effort, but only when the smoke settles on the new round of processor releases that address the known security vulnerabilities,  and competitive responses from Intel and AMD have settled.

 

Best,

Larry

[lmitche]

27 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

Since Supermicro can only do pcie x2 gen2.0 at max 5Gb/s, then 4-port card is not much use and then for 2-port card I could only either shift dac or Lan connection from mobo to this card?

 

If I stick with Daphile Linux player, I don't think the Asmedia driver is needed, am I right?

I don't know.  The Startech site says the following:

 

"The maximum throughput of this card is limited by the bus interface. PCI Express Gen 1.0 max throughput is 2.5Gbps. PCI Express Gen 2.0 max throughput is 5Gbps. PCI Express Gen 3.0 max throughput is 10Gbps.

 

The available bandwidth (10Gbps) is shared equally between the two ports."

 

So it should work, but not at full capacity.  Results of running Linux is unknown to me.

[Quadman]

58 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Yesterday the polls ended on Part 1 and 2 of this exercise.

I found the thread to late to vote.  I am in the high power camp; DSD512 full poly-sinc-xtr-MP or broke.  Could live with a mATX board but have no issue with full ATX, it provides better cooling options with a bit more clearance to ram, also current chips that can do full XTR have 4 memory lanes.  Right now as they are configured AMD offers best bang for buck, but TDP to get above filters are 140-180 currently, not sure next release will give us 90-95TDP and full XTR capability.

 

Those of you struggling with SSD glare, try the intel X25E, 64GB or 32 GB SLC SSD can find used on eBay fairly regularly add a sotm sata II filter and you'll be happy. (X25E is a sata II SSD)

[lateboomer]

If I want to convert Samsung 850 EVO ssd to usb ssd, does anyone get good sound quality with this usb ssd/hdd dock which can be supplied with lps?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Dual-Bay-Dock-SATA/dp/B00XLAZ9KC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-6&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

 

Or should I go simpler approach with this adapter?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Adapter-Cable-Drives/dp/B00XLAZODE/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-5&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

If I want to convert Samsung 850 EVO ssd to usb ssd, does anyone get good sound quality with this usb ssd/hdd dock which can be supplied with lps?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Dual-Bay-Dock-SATA/dp/B00XLAZ9KC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-6&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

 

Or should I go simpler approach with this adapter?

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-10Gbps-Adapter-Cable-Drives/dp/B00XLAZODE/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1521481421&sr=8-5&keywords=startech+usb+sata+ssd

You could do one of these at 2.5 or 3.5 inch as well:

 

https://www.startech.com/HDD/Enclosures/?filter_NUMHARDDRIVE=1&filter_IOINTERFACE=USB+3.1+Gen+2&filter_HARDDRIVECOM=SATA

 

The double drive one is cool as it will duplicate drives offline.  I have one for making multiple backups, three onsite, one offsite.

 

The 3.5 drive enclosure is my daily driver, and the backups are done by the duplicator when I have a lot of new files.

[Lebouwsky]

Would it be a good idea to start a thread about 1 box usb diy servers? This attempt to custoumize a mb was a spin-off from “a novel way”. The problem with that thread that it’s so wide and yet again at the front of streaming pioneering. It makes it not everyones cup of tea. It’s like bringing back to live the ‘good old’ caps v... threads, since a lot of people like to build their own, don’t wan’t a spaghetti chain and don’t want to go to infinity and beyond. We can collect proven techniques that fits the budget of mortel people like me.

[lmitche]

23 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

Would it be a good idea to start a thread about 1 box usb diy servers? This attempt to custoumize a mb was a spin-off from “a novel way”. The problem with that thread that it’s so wide and yet again at the front of streaming pioneering. It makes it not everyones cup of tea. It’s like bringing back to live the ‘good old’ caps v... threads, since a lot of people like to build their own, don’t wan’t a spaghetti chain and don’t want to go to infinity and beyond. We can collect proven techniques that fits the budget of mortel people like me.

 

Sure, why not? But I could argue that the "novel" thread has become just that. While it started as a two box thread, people have moved to simpler one box solutions like the Innuous over time.

 

Anyway, a new thread with more focus could be interesting.

[Cooler]

I found interesting motherboard with dual ethernet, sata and pci-e and it is on ARM cpu, supports linux.

It is low power mb, which could be great platform for linux music server:

http://www.compulab.com/products/sbcs/sbc-am57x-ti-am5728-am5718-single-board-computer/#specs

 

[seeteeyou]

Mini PCIe instead of PCIe, adapters might not be a good idea IMHO.

 

$243 a piece? Thanks but no thanks. There's that tried and true Supermicro X10SBA-L while it's already proven to sound good for less than $200. Maybe not exactly worth $250 unless it does sound better than X10SBA-L.
 

Quote

1K-units price
$81

 

Pricing is specified for 1000-unit orders. In order to calculate the price for another quantity, multiply the unit price (with selected options) by the factor listed in the table below:

 

1    3.0

 

[nbpf]

8 hours ago, Cooler said:

I found interesting motherboard with dual ethernet, sata and pci-e and it is on ARM cpu, supports linux.

It is low power mb, which could be great platform for linux music server:

http://www.compulab.com/products/sbcs/sbc-am57x-ti-am5728-am5718-single-board-computer/#specs

 

Compulab makes a number of dual ethernet boards and very nice microcomputers. I am using a fanless FitPC3 as a music server since about five years. Their apparently also offer their new Fitlet2 line of products with a "medical grade" PSU. Compulab  is located in Israel, not far away from Teddy Pardo, if I am not mistaken. If the two companies would join forces, they could come up with very interesting low power, low noise music servers I guess.

[jaynyc]

Puget has recently published screenshots of Asus P10S-M BIOS

https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/bios_screenshots/Motherboard/Asus-P10S-M-WS-11667

[lateboomer]

I just received the Startech 4-port 10Gbps card, an usb adapter for ssd and an Ethernet usb nic. First, I tried to compare the difference between usb2.0 and usb3.0 ports on motherboard, which only one was enable and the rest disable and vice verse. In the end to our ears usb3.0 was sounding better then usb2.0 for Supermicro x10sba-l. Usb3.0 gave fuller and better transient sounding compared with usb2.0, you could feel that something was holding the music back when listened with usb2.0.

 

I taught this was the best sounding the Supermicro can achieved and was very hard to beat it until I tested the Startech usb card and moved Ethenet, SSD and usb audio output to the card and disable all the ports from the mobo. The SQ was so good that I taught I had reached my audio nirvana. I supplied separate clean 5v power supply to the sdd adapter through a modified usb3.0 A-male-to-A-female connector.

 

What is sweeter is my system is only very moderate system as such:

Speakers: Triangle Esprit Antal 

Cables : Oehlbach XLR rca and Supra Sword speaker cables.

Amp : Musical Fidelity M6 integrated

Dac : Mirand Dac with heavily modified lps for both digital and analog sections.

 

I would like to give a big shout out and thank you to lmitche to bring this card to our attention. As previously stated, I was not so trilled with my old tX-USBexp card but this Startech card really blows my mind away. I tried to supply very clean lps to the card.  I have recorded some music from my system's playback with Zoom H1 recorder in 24 bit 96 khz and decided to share it here. All my music is 44.1 khz ripped from cds and no upsampling applied in playback.

 

02_SupermStartech_20180402.WAV

 

 

 

[Lauritsvd]

28 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

I just received the Startech 4-port 10Gbps card, an usb adapter for ssd and an Ethernet usb nic. First, I tried to compare the difference between usb2.0 and usb3.0 ports on motherboard, which only one was enable and the rest disable and vice verse. In the end to our ears usb3.0 was sounding better then usb2.0 for Supermicro x10sba-l. Usb3.0 gave fuller and better transient sounding compared with usb2.0, you could feel that something was holding the music back when listened with usb2.0.

 

I taught this was the best sounding the Supermicro can achieved and was very hard to beat it until I tested the Startech usb card and moved Ethenet, SSD and usb audio output to the card and disable all the ports from the mobo. The SQ was so good that I taught I had reached my audio nirvana. I supplied separate clean 5v power supply to the sdd adapter through a modified usb3.0 A-male-to-A-female connector.

 

What is sweeter is my system is only very moderate system as such:

Speakers: Triangle Esprit Antal 

Cables : Oehlbach XLR rca and Supra Sword speaker cables.

Amp : Musical Fidelity M6 integrated

Dac : Mirand Dac with heavily modified lps for both digital and analog sections.

 

I would like to give a big shout out and thank you to lmitche to bring this card to our attention. As previously stated, I was not so trilled with my old tX-USBexp card but this Startech card really blows my mind away. I tried to supply very clean lps to the card.  I have recorded some music from my system's playback with Zoom H1 recorder in 24 bit 96 khz and decided to share it here. All my music is 44.1 khz ripped from cds and no upsampling applied in playback.

 

02_SupermStartech_20180402.WAV

 

 

 

Very  interesting to hear. 

And that way you dont use sata at all, and have shut it down?

 

I have a PPA V2 Pcie-usb on my Supermicro SBA X10-O , sound is much better than the MB ports both 2/3.

Using sata for the kingston oss ssd, but with separate 5V supply. 

Right now using ATX HD-plex 250w. Next will be a Stamheim   S-HPULN 3A  for the MB, but waiting on transformer. 

Using only 2x2 rams to have very low power use.

 

Supermicro is such a nice MB, 

and sound is already very good. 

 

 

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, lateboomer said:

I just received the Startech 4-port 10Gbps card, an usb adapter for ssd and an Ethernet usb nic. First, I tried to compare the difference between usb2.0 and usb3.0 ports on motherboard, which only one was enable and the rest disable and vice verse. In the end to our ears usb3.0 was sounding better then usb2.0 for Supermicro x10sba-l. Usb3.0 gave fuller and better transient sounding compared with usb2.0, you could feel that something was holding the music back when listened with usb2.0.

 

I taught this was the best sounding the Supermicro can achieved and was very hard to beat it until I tested the Startech usb card and moved Ethenet, SSD and usb audio output to the card and disable all the ports from the mobo. The SQ was so good that I taught I had reached my audio nirvana. I supplied separate clean 5v power supply to the sdd adapter through a modified usb3.0 A-male-to-A-female connector.

 

What is sweeter is my system is only very moderate system as such:

Speakers: Triangle Esprit Antal 

Cables : Oehlbach XLR rca and Supra Sword speaker cables.

Amp : Musical Fidelity M6 integrated

Dac : Mirand Dac with heavily modified lps for both digital and analog sections.

 

I would like to give a big shout out and thank you to lmitche to bring this card to our attention. As previously stated, I was not so trilled with my old tX-USBexp card but this Startech card really blows my mind away. I tried to supply very clean lps to the card.  I have recorded some music from my system's playback with Zoom H1 recorder in 24 bit 96 khz and decided to share it here. All my music is 44.1 khz ripped from cds and no upsampling applied in playback.

 

02_SupermStartech_20180402.WAV

 

 

 

Great to hear of your success.  Make sure to keep the DAC connection separate from the sdd and Ethernet nic. My DAC cable is plugged into the bottom port then one empty port and the nic and hdd in the top two ports.  The usb card is really two cards in one, so this separates the input and output sides.

 

 

[lateboomer]

I shut down all the SATA, usb and LAN ports on the mobo. The OS is Daphile player running in its own partition on the usb SSD, and the music storage on different partition on the usb SSD. And yes the usb audio to the dac is at the bottom port and different channel from the usb SSD and Ethernet nic. The Ethernet nic is running very light and almost none existence and only for control playback on the Daphile. Another huge contributor is I changed the usb cable to Phasure Lush usb cable and this brings the playback to much higher level. It is also not to forget the whole mobo is supplied with multiple rails of lps to its ATX power connector. 

 

With all these improvements it makes me think the great sound is coming from outsourcing all the usb and SATA activities to a very fast usb card and relieves the heavy lifting from the mobo.

 

So I wonder if I to get one Sparky Allo USBridge and supply it with lps powered usb SSD, would the SQ be as good as Supermicro with much simpler built and lower cost? Also could I achieve better SQ than Supermicro by getting one P10S-M mobo as suggested here which has more pcie slots connected with the CPU and can run multiple Startech cards to separate the OS, music storage input from the usb audio output to the dac? This would be very interesting.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, lateboomer said:

I shut down all the SATA, usb and LAN ports on the mobo. The OS is Daphile player running in its own partition on the usb SSD, and the music storage on different partition on the usb SSD. And yes the usb audio to the dac is at the bottom port and different channel from the usb SSD and Ethernet nic. The Ethernet nic is running very light and almost none existence and only for control playback on the Daphile. Another huge contributor is I changed the usb cable to Phasure Lush usb cable and this brings the playback to much higher level. It is also not to forget the whole mobo is supplied with multiple rails of lps to its ATX power connector. 

 

With all these improvements it makes me think the great sound is coming from outsourcing all the usb and SATA activities to a very fast usb card and relieves the heavy lifting from the mobo.

 

So I wonder if I to get one Sparky Allo USBridge and supply it with lps powered usb SSD, would the SQ be as good as Supermicro with much simpler built and lower cost? Also could I achieve better SQ than Supermicro by getting one P10S-M mobo as suggested here which has more pcie slots connected with the CPU and can run multiple Startech cards to separate the OS, music storage input from the usb audio output to the dac? This would be very interesting.

The Startech board is actually two boards and so if you followed my instructions you have separated music storage and network from the DAC.

 

The card has two clocks and a clear line down the middle denoting the two sides. The PCie lanes are not shared, so it is like you have two boards today.

 

I don't know a thing about the Allo Sparky, so can't comment.

 

The thing about the Asus workstation board is that it is capable of dsd512 upsampling with the right processor.  That is a very different kettle of fish however.