Circuit Breaker to Outlet AC Wiring and Ground

[Speedskater]

Is your Home Theater system modern or traditional?  A modern system would use HDMI interconnects and BlueRay & Netflix as sources.

 

Don't think that the projector will be on the same circuit.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Is your Home Theater system modern or traditional?  A modern system would use HDMI interconnects and BlueRay & Netflix as sources.

 

Don't think that the projector will be on the same circuit.

 

Modern from your perspective.

 

What do you mean when you say "Don't think that the projector will be on the same circuit."

[Speedskater]

This is getting hard to follow, because half of the conversation is in one thread and half in another.

 

Anyway, projectors draw lots of current and a 1kVA transformer is very small, so it will be on another circuit.

 

If you don't use the 2 Channel and H.T systems at the same time, they can both be on the same circuit.

 

You do have the reference Middle Atlantic white paper, don't you?

[KingRex]

9 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

+1

I am really no authority at all on dirty power and how to clean it.  I did the try and see route and came to a similar conclusion to most people I talk to.  If you don't have dirty power, don't use a conditioner.

 

If you do have dirty power they can help in many ways and improve upon your situation.  The question is how do you know if you have dirty power. 

• Do you amps or linear PS hum audibly at different times of the day.  That would be an indicator.
• There are inexpensive plug in devices that have a visible indicator of some sort indicating dirty power.
• The only real was is a power analyzer, they cost money and most electricians won't have them.  I don't have one either so I went the guessing route.  It was frustrating how some items helped certain issues and how certain conditioners altered the sound of front end vs power amps.  And, as we know, any audio dealer that carries a conditioner carries the best of the best, no other competes and it will solve everything with no detrimental affects.  Yea sure.  So salesmen are not a lot of help.
• Experiment.  Can you get demo gear to your house.  If I already had a 1kva Topaz Line Iso transformer, I would insert it into my system.  Make sure there are receptacles also available that are not on the transformer line to compare and contrast.

 

All or most of you may have read a ton about dirty power and power conditioners and know a lot more than me.  This is just a few concepts I have come to believe.  I think of 4 types of dirty power

1 Sagging voltage or fluctuating voltage

2 DC on the AC lines

3 Sine wave/harmonic distortion

4 high frequency pollution from radio waves or other interferences.

 

There are 4 main types of power conditioners and they seem to have the best effect for certain types of pollution.  Regenerators, Transformers, Capacitors, high frequency filters.  Some work better with certain types of equipment.  Its just so hard to know what works well.  And, a good conditioner is $$$$

 

 

The solution at my house for a very tube based system and a very nice music server with linear power supplies was a cord from my panel direct to a very dense heavy power distribution strip, and I utilize an Akiko Corelli.  It works for me.  I took the Akiko to a friends house with a very balanced system and it ruined his bass.  The distributor said it has to be in place for 24 hours to work best.  We had it in place for a solid 3 hours.  When removed, it was immediately noticeably better without it.  

 

I think I already said all this, Joe with Kosmic has Genesis amps and speakers.  He has a world class system.  He also has some of the worst power issues I have heard.  He and uses Isoteck.  He very much likes it and it helps - a lot.

 

I have listened to a system over $1M.  That systems front end has a huge Equitech power system.  And an amazing amount to grounding devices.  I have never felt like I was in a tomb until in that room.  When the music starts, it really comes from nowhere.

 

Anyhow, I don't know how to determine or how to address what sort of pollution is on your lines.  For me and pretty much everyone I know Its trial and error.  I have not meet or heard of the salesman that comes to your house with a power analyzer and a variety of equipment for a plug and play demo.   Its system AND location dependent, but I do believe you get what you pay for.  I tried a PS Audio Humbucker due to its price point.  It was horrible.  I even put 4 caps on a diode and inserted it into the neutral line at my house.  It was actually very effective at getting rid of noise.  It was also horrible in the veil on the music.  It does however do a fantastic job at providing a much more stunning picture on my Plasma TV.  Go figure.

 

I saw a large number of Audioquest Niagara 5000 at Axpona.  If I did not have my Akiko I would try one.  I really do like my Akiko.  I really cant tell its in the system.  If I unplug it, the sound does not seem to change much.  It is a little more clear with it in than out.  The big benefit is it shuts down transformer humming pretty darn good.  About 85% to 90% is gone.  Some days its almost dead quiet.  Other days I can hear the amps from a couple feet away.  Not at the listening station any more.  Before the Akiko, the hum was heard in the next room. 

 

I would also say my Cord and Distribution power strip is probably responsible for maybe 30% to 40% of the noise reduction in my system.  Not necessarily the humming.  The noise floor dropped dramatically with it.  I mean noise floor as you don't know you have noise till its gone. When the cord and strip went in, it was subtle, but also wow, its way more quiet.  I can hear so much more in the songs I use to play.  That along with the last few changes I did to my music server, I really feel I am able to hear the power amps? Recoding Booth?  I feel I am getting much closer to the source sounds.  There is just something way more tactile about the presentation now. 

My digital has also for sure far surpassed my TT in most all ways.  I really hear the noise from the phono preamp and needle on the vinyl now.  At least I notice it a lot more.  The music server gives a new perspective.  My point being, I did not know I had the TT noise, until I had a source with so little noise, I then recognized it for what the noise was/is.

 

In a sense its all about tuning a stereo.  It seems to take years and a lot of trial and error.  Every room is different.

[Ralf11]

Thanks - is this the iso-tech you mentioned?

 

http://www.isoteksystems.com/

 

[Ralf11]

John - I am in an R1 zone in a small city - the substation is about 10 blocks away.  There is an elem. school and an rehab ctr. nearby - the former seems blameless but some equipment at the rehab place could be noisy.  Also, one house away my neighbor has PV panels, so I'm not sure if the power convertors might be putting any noise over to me (I do think he is on a different run from a pole transformer).  Then there's the guy with a mah radio antenna down the street, 2 blocks away.

 

I don't know your situation but assume you are out in a rural area (well, septic) and commute - it might help to find out how close any industries (or big machine shops) are to your home, and do some surveillance on NSA installations etc. if they are nearby...

[Johnseye]

35 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

John - I am in an R1 zone in a small city - the substation is about 10 blocks away.  There is an elem. school and an rehab ctr. nearby - the former seems blameless but some equipment at the rehab place could be noisy.  Also, one house away my neighbor has PV panels, so I'm not sure if the power convertors might be putting any noise over to me (I do think he is on a different run from a pole transformer).  Then there's the guy with a mah radio antenna down the street, 2 blocks away.

 

I don't know your situation but assume you are out in a rural area (well, septic) and commute - it might help to find out how close any industries (or big machine shops) are to your home, and do some surveillance on NSA installations etc. if they are nearby...

 

I'm in a suburb of Chicago, about 45 minutes out.  There are 150,000 people in the city.  I got lucky with this house in that it's located in a subdivision who has fought to stay unincorporated, but still part of the city.  There's a lot of business, including some industry in the area.

 

What's interesting is I put in a DC blocker thinking it would have some effect, but I can't hear a difference.  So at least I know my line is clean of DC noise.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, KingRex said:

I would also say my Cord and Distribution power strip is probably responsible for maybe 30% to 40% of the noise reduction in my system.  Not necessarily the humming.  The noise floor dropped dramatically with it.  I mean noise floor as you don't know you have noise till its gone. When the cord and strip went in, it was subtle, but also wow, its way more quiet.  I can hear so much more in the songs I use to play.  That along with the last few changes I did to my music server, I really feel I am able to hear the power amps? Recoding Booth?  I feel I am getting much closer to the source sounds.  There is just something way more tactile about the presentation now. 

My digital has also for sure far surpassed my TT in most all ways.  I really hear the noise from the phono preamp and needle on the vinyl now.  At least I notice it a lot more.  The music server gives a new perspective.  My point being, I did not know I had the TT noise, until I had a source with so little noise, I then recognized it for what the noise was/is.

 

In a sense its all about tuning a stereo.  It seems to take years and a lot of trial and error.  Every room is different.

 

Yes, this is the journey - at the moment. If the components were engineered well enough to be able to reject these influences, none of these tweaks would matter one iota - but, they're not. Testing, experimenting, trial and error, are all powerful aids to getting beyond the "normal" level of audio playback.

 

In the recording booth, more tactile, so much more in the songs - this is all in the recording, and always has been. Foolin' around with constantly trying new components is the audio road to hell - it ain't gonna deliver the really good stuff, ever ...

[Ralf11]

John, you might call the utility and ask about power quality.  The one here (publicly owned) was very accommodating when I did so.  I'll post the results of their meter tap later on the related thread I started.

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

John, you might call the utility and ask about power quality.  The one here (publicly owned) was very accommodating when I did so.  I'll post the results of their meter tap later on the related thread I started.

 

Did they run tests and provide you with a report?  What is a meter tap?

[Ralf11]

yes

 

it goes between the incoming service line and the meter - they removed the meter, commented on the corrosion on my line, and placed a base-plate looking gizmo there, then plugged the meter into their gizmo - they programmed it, and it then logged data for a week.

 

I got the sense that it was something that industrial customers would want to have done - power controllers for machine tools, etc.

 

I need a bit to get around to posting results but they did tell me my voltage looked fine with low THD, but that my current did not look so good and had high THD. 

[Speedskater]

5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Thanks - is this the iso-tech you mentioned?

http://www.isoteksystems.com/

People shouldn't read poorly written stuff like that, so many mistakes and mis-directions.

[Speedskater]

9 hours ago, KingRex said:

There are inexpensive plug in devices that have a visible indicator of some sort indicating dirty power.

I don't think that there are any inexpensive units that will give you any useful information about dirty power.

 

Even a Tri-Field meter is seldom helpful for power line problems.  Now it will work for air-borne RFI problems but that's another story.

[Speedskater]

On Power Conditioners

 

Remember that 'power conditioner' is an undefined term.  It could mean almost any combination of the following.

a]  Noise filter - a low-pass EMI/RFI filter.
b]  Surge protector - although it's better to have surge protection at the home's service entrance.
c]  UPS - note that many UPS's are not really UPS's!
d]  Line voltage adjuster.
e]  Balanced power transformer.
f]  Isolated power transformer.
g]  DC blockers.
h]  Regenerators (PSAudio)
i]  Power Factor Correction
j]  I forget? But I think that there are more.

 

[KingRex]

19 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Thanks - is this the iso-tech you mentioned?

 

http://www.isoteksystems.com/

 

Yes. He uses multiple syncro and the high end Titan.  I just had a Syncro. 

[Ralf11]

there is this thing:

 

http://www.emfields-solutions.com/howto/what-to-do-about-dirty-electricity.asp

[KingRex]

Exactly Ralf11.  I have looked at those.  I am not opposed to think of using such a device  next to my home computer of refrigerator.  Of course Speedskater is correct.  The testing device is probably a piece of junk, but it is probably purpose built to look for very specific types of  pollution such as computers and dimmers.  You would hope the cleaning devices is inexpensive but effective at  targeted home appliances.  PS audio  makes a Noise Harvester.  Other companies make a similar device.   Shunyata has a few choices.   I believe my Akiko is based the same principles but more broad spectrum. 

 

I am really just trying to find the best way to get good sound.  I believe clean constant power is key.  It is my belief a scavenging type conditioner trying to get the pollution off the lines before it really gets in and pollutes is a positive thing.  I like that method before actually interrupting the power line and inserting a cleaning device.  I feel a device you actually plug into has a stronger chance of really changing the overall performance of a piece of gear.  That may be for the good in some instances, but, I think the designers of our amps, preamps etc are designing to a sound based upon clean power in the first place.  Not filtered power.  Yes I am filtering the power, I just find plug in devices are very impactfull.  I want to get the job done with the least impact.  I want my gear to speak clean and clear in the voice they were given.   I have actually been doing a little looking to see if I cant just plug my desktop {Non Audio} into a conditioner to  stop the gunk before it even hits the lines.

 

Along these lines I am also thinking that not only putting my NAS, Switch and Router on a linear PS will help with the digital signal, it may also keep computer filth from getting back onto my power lines.

 

Every step in the right direction is great.  I changed a Cat5 jumper to cat 6 yesterday.  I heard the change and really like what I heard.  I am now looking at a full loom of Inakustik Cat 7 cable for all my internet associate with my audio gear.  Clean digital power.  

[Speedskater]

18 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

there is this thing:

http://www.emfields-solutions.com/howto/what-to-do-about-dirty-electricity.asp

That is a toy, better is the Tri-Field meter. But it measures the airborne EMI/RFI fields. Which is useful if your phono pre-amp is next to a big power amp.  But what we should be concerned with is noise currents in the AC power circuit.

[Speedskater]

Actually what we should look at are the outputs of our hi-fi components:

a] First look at the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio outputs.

b] Then out of band high frequency noise or oscillation at the audio outputs.

[KingRex]

5 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Actually what we should look at are the outputs of our hi-fi components:

a] First look at the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio outputs.

b] Then out of band high frequency noise or oscillation at the audio outputs.

What do you mean?  Can you explain more what noise your talking about and how it might be addressed?

[Speedskater]

19 hours ago, KingRex said:

What do you mean?  Can you explain more what noise your talking about and how it might be addressed?

Well this thread is about AC power line quality. And we see posts about using this component or that. And we see posts about measuring this or that. But you can measure the wrong things till the cows come home but that's not what we should care about. What's important is audio quality, so that's what you should examine.

 

*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

In improvements in possible audio quality will show up in:

a] the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio outputs. (using a sensitive true RMS DMM)

b]  out of band high frequency noise or oscillation at the audio outputs. (using an O-scope)

[KingRex]

Our of my league.  Like I said before.  I have tried and at times errored, but also had some great success.